LDS and Abortion

[FormerXCatholic]

Modelling us

I don’t think the bible says “thou shalt not kill, ever, period.”
After all, God himself tells people in the bible to kill other groups of people.
("Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. " (1 Samuel 15:3)
And I think many Catholics here on this forum feel okay with the idea of owning a gun and shooting an intruder in self-defence…or killing another soldier in war…

.

I stand corrected, but if God isn’t leading us then all killing is against the commanments. Jesus told us to turn the other check so the self defense claim is a very narrow argument . And I don’t think God approves killing in wars, that’s a human attempt to justify killing. God knows war is caused by worldly motives, not Godly.

 

[TexanKnight]

Because the majority of the abortions performed in a community of majority LDS in your PERSONAL experience is a very small piece of data.
I can say that 100% of the rape cases I have dialogued about in the LDS community have resulted in live birth (this coming from converstation with LDS social service person not from my personal knowledge of rape victoms which is 0), but I hardly think that means this 100% holds (though I wish it would).
Adherents.com explains that Utah and Idaho have the lowest abortion rate in the nation by not a small margin.
Guttmacher’s data has been widely published showing that Catholic women have abortions at a significantly higher rate than Protestant women. I found no breakdown for LDS so all I have is the Adherents data.

The term “self-defense” is interesting but appropriate. It is absolutely true that ectopic pregnancy termination is call abortion by virtually every source I have ever explored, as such I do not believe calling it abortion is inappropriate.
That being said, the “self-defense” argument is precisely how I defend my churches position. It BTW has nothing to do with who the father is, but everything to do with the mother.
I hope my current experience with LDS abortion and rape preceded abortion in the CoJCoLDS continues (never happens even though I have spoken with folks who would know of such things as a product of their work). [that should not imply that I believe abortion never happens though I think it possible that no rape induced church leader approved abortions have occured for years].
Here is one link. Contained in the link is another link. If you will explain how ensoulment matters and “self-defense” is appropriate in my view (in words that I would embrace), I will engage briefly on your critique of this. If not, I will leave you to the simple construct, “The CoJCoLDS is not true due to its stand on abortion.” I do not believe folks listen and you have claimed you ignore me just recently so …
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3295252&postcount=4

Charity, TOm

your experience has nothing to do with teaching or doctrine.

How is your experience with blood oaths and agreeing to kill and/or be killed?

 

[Stephen168]

The term “self-defense” is interesting but appropriate. It is absolutely true that ectopic pregnancy termination is call abortion by virtually every source I have ever explored, as such I do not believe calling it abortion is inappropriate.

You can believe that, but it is the same as calling homicide in self-defense murder.

That being said, the “self-defense” argument is precisely how I defend my churches position. It BTW has nothing to do with who the father is, but everything to do with the mother.

I was assuming the male would be the rapist, but you are free to believe it could be the female. So the Mormon Church has the “We don’t like your parents” justification for homicide; your parent is a rapist, you don’t deserve to live.

I hope my current experience with LDS abortion and rape preceded abortion in the CoJCoLDS continues (never happens even though I have spoken with folks who would know of such things as a product of their work). [that should not imply that I believe abortion never happens though I think it possible that no rape induced church leader approved abortions have occured for years].

It is the teaching of the Mormon Church which is immoral; not your personal experience.

Here is one link. Contained in the link is another link.

I just saw lists of your personal beliefs. I stopped looking for the possibility I might find something that might be your defense of Mormon teaching on abortion using “ensoulment.” If you have one, give it here.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I will also only mention that I have encountered a handful of studies that point to the fact that LDS have fewer abortions than Catholics and fewer births to unwed mothers.

A handful of studies!! How many is that…One, two, three! Who did them? I lived and worked in Utah for six years. Worked in the OB-GYN area. The majority of females coming in wanting a TAB, or already had one or two TAB’s were LDS. They were all ages. How do I know they were LDS. They would tell me. Didn’t have to ask. They were hoping no one would find out about it. (No, abortions were not done where I worked.)

Just wanted to give my meager 2 cents worth.

Yes, Mormons lie out of a sense of self preservation. The same goes for polls that ask if a college student drinks. Of course, a Mormon is going to give the right answer, which is NO.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I personally would vote and legislate as Catholic would in all but the most unusual of circumstances (see the last paragraph for that circumstance).
I have in the past defended my church’s view on this by questioning when “ensoulment” occurs and there is Catholic precedent for this, but I thought I would only mention it.
I will choose to leave alone the descriptions of how immoral my church is for its teachings on abortion.
I will also only mention that I have encountered a handful of studies that point to the fact that LDS have fewer abortions than Catholics and fewer births to unwed mothers. This aligns with my perception that to be a LDS is to follow LDS teachings to a greater extent than to be a Catholic is to follow Catholic teachings. An old and not WORTHLESS axiom is “good advice not followed is not really good advice.” And I will also offer and anecdotal comment from a question I asked to a volunteer at LDS social services. They do know of incidents were rape victims gave birth and knew of no incidents were rape victims had abortions. So I know of no LDS church leaders who have ever recommended an abortion.

I do want to tell you that you are wrong in that a Catholic Priest (and more correctly a Catholic Bioethicist) does in fact recommend abortion in some instances. It is when the life of the mother is in danger and the fetus will die anyway. In this situation an abortion is the proper course of action. The Catholic Bioethics dictate an unusual procedure that I would reject, but it does (through double-effect) kill the baby and save the mother.

Charity, TOm

Tom, all people are sinners. LDS approach to sin and morality is one of orthopraxy. My experience is, LDS are well practiced at right behavior, and hiding wrong behavior.

If is naive for you to think this way, and also dangerous. How do you think it is possible for so many ponzi schemes to be perpetrated, LDS on LDS? His do you think your Church leaders were deceived by Mark Hoffman? It is orhopraxy. Behave as Mormons expect and the behavior makes the person trustworthy.

I don’t know about you, but I trust a people who confess they are sinners, more than I do a people who deny they have ever sinned.

 

[TOmNossor]

RebeccaJ,
I think there is a problem with not acknowledging sin. No Christian (including LDS Christians) live their religion as it is taught. The difference between Christian hypocrites and Christian non-hypocrites is one pretends to succeed at fallowing the teachings and the other acknowledges their failures.
Abortion is a hard sin to pretend didn’t happen.
Perhaps your point is that LDS try to live the gospel as part of pretending they never sin. There are likely aspects of truth in this and when it is true it is sin.
Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

I just saw lists of your personal beliefs. I stopped looking for the possibility I might find something that might be your defense of Mormon teaching on abortion using “ensoulment.” If you have one, give it here.

Super!
You have already claimed that you cannot learn from me because of my church’s views. You have now refused to put in a small amount of effort to discover the argument I think has merit. I have no desire to reproduce that argument here when you won’t listen anyway.
This will be my last post in this thread and I think I will change the tone of my engagement here shortly(I will focus on learning where my Cathoilc knowledge might hinder me from weighing the strongest pro-Catholic position against the strongest pro-Mormon position). Someday I may return to offering a counterbalance to the ONESIDED presentation of my faith here, but I am sure you don’t listen and don’t know how many do.
Here is a favorite quote once written by a Catholic priest:

And since it was easy enough for me to see through the many half-truths, misunderstandings, and even outright errors alleged against the Catholic Church, I suspected that similar critiques leveled against the LDS Church—as to its “non-Christian” status—were equally flawed.

Now, we are not strictly speaking about the label Christian, but the above well expresses what I think would be the product of a genuine attempt to learn.
Anyway, I intend to understand what Catholics can and should believe and how Tradition and history impact the truth claims of the Catholic Church. I am not sure I can get past all my biases, but I will try to understand.
Charity, TOm

 

[PaulDupre1]

I think the ensoulment argument pro-abortion is ridiculous. The Mormon position seems to be that it is permissible to kill a baby in the womb if you believe (s)he may not yet be “ensouled”.

Mormons believe that the baby’s spirit does not inhabit the body completely at conception, but visits occasionally to test drive the fetus and get used to inhabiting it. Mormons say that you can tell when the spirit is there because the baby moves when the spirit is inside. Remember that they believe that the pre-existing spirit waiting to be born is sitting up there with heavenly father and heavenly mother.

They think the spirit comes at some point late in the gestation period and takes up permanent residence. Any time before that, if they kill the baby, the spirit gets the opportunity to be born into another body.

The problem with that whole idea is that they also believe that God has a plan for each and every person who is born. If you kill the baby, aren’t you depriving God of his plan for that person? Aren’t you ripping away God’s opportunity to “ensoul” that baby at the time when God planned to ensoul her?

Do Mormons really think they have that right?

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ,
I think there is a problem with not acknowledging sin. No Christian (including LDS Christians) live their religion as it is taught. The difference between Christian hypocrites and Christian non-hypocrites is one pretends to succeed at fallowing the teachings and the other acknowledges their failures.
Abortion is a hard sin to pretend didn’t happen.
Perhaps your point is that LDS try to live the gospel as part of pretending they never sin. There are likely aspects of truth in this and when it is true it is sin.
Charity, TOm

In UT abortion is done secretly. A person with a secret isn’t going to risk being exposed by answering yes to a pollster.

The more difficult aspect are the teachings. You have a pragmatic view, which is not surprising as a Mormon. Catholic morality is not pragmatic. A “good” outcome does not justify a immoral act. This is the argument you are making, when you say Mormons are good people in spite of the immoral teaching on abortion. This does not make the teaching moral. I do not think Mormons who hide their behavior believe they are doing anything wrong by keeping sinful behavior secret. Mormons are very individualistic, and have no theological concept of being reconciled to each other via the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

People who sin, do not make a moral teaching immoral.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Also! Orthopraxy follows orthodoxy, is how Catholics approach the two. Someone who has not consciously consented to a teaching of the Church (orthodoxy) will not have orthopraxy. Or, someone who has, has what Pope Benedict XVI called, in the encyclical aspect Salve, the tendency towards inward lies that we tell ourselves, in order to not face God with our sins. I think to Mormon ears this sounds like something that happens to everyone but themselves. Which is of course, a great irony.

Mormonism is the other way around, and teaches that orthopraxy leads to orthodoxy. Except of course, there is no orthodoxy in Mormonism so I mean orthodoxy very loosely. In a Mormon context orthodoxy is defined more along the lines of, “I am behaving as expected, therefore I have a correct belief.” However, every Mormon will give a different answer to “What is right belief?” This brings out my point, that Mormons are individualistic. What is right belief, is what each individual believes. The most important measurement being, do I act as expected. So! No I don’t think individual Mormons believe they are committing a sin, and therefore are not being hypocritical, as long as the right behavior is being exhibited. There are no inward lies to seek out and rid via prayer and confession, because what a Mormon feels is what is right (orthodoxy).

 

[Stephen168]

Here is a favorite quote once written by a Catholic priest:

And since it was easy enough for me to see through the many half-truths, misunderstandings, and even outright errors alleged against the Catholic Church, I suspected that similar critiques leveled against the LDS Church—as to its “non-Christian” status—were equally flawed.

Yes, it must be a favorite. I see you have been pasting it on various forums for a decade.

You have already claimed that you cannot learn from me because of my church’s views. You have now refused to put in a small amount of effort to discover the argument I think has merit. I have no desire to reproduce that argument here when you won’t listen anyway.

I don’t recall saying I cannot learn from because of your church’s views. I have pointed out that your views are not necessarily your church’s views.

I think it would be very easy for you to copy and paste your defense of Mormon teaching on abortion using “ensoulment” because you seem to be willing to paste other statements over and over again when it suits you.

Someday I may return to offering a counterbalance to the ONESIDED presentation of my faith here, but I am sure you don’t listen and don’t know how many do.

I’m very willing to listen to your defense of the teaching of the Mormon Church. But I don’t have much patiences for you giving your beliefs, and because are a Mormon, leading others to believe they are the teachings of the Mormon Church. You seem much more rational than your church.

Now, we are not strictly speaking about the label Christian, but the above well expresses what I think would be the product of a genuine attempt to learn.

You seem to be rambling about something unrelated to this thread.

Anyway, I intend to understand what Catholics can and should believe and how Tradition and history impact the truth claims of the Catholic Church. I am not sure I can get past all my biases, but I will try to understand.

I don’t think you can get past your biases either, but I hope so, too.

 

[RebeccaJ]

someone who has, has what Pope Benedict XVI called, in the encyclical aspect Salve,

Darned auto speller. “aspect Salve” = Spe Salve.

 

[TexanKnight]

Tom. you never answered my questions about your blood oaths

 

[kimg901]

Tom. you never answered my questions about your blood oaths

And he never answered about those souls in heaven that decided to be aborted.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I do want to tell you that you are wrong in that a Catholic Priest (and more correctly a Catholic Bioethicist) does in fact recommend abortion in some instances. It is when the life of the mother is in danger and the fetus will die anyway. In this situation an abortion is the proper course of action. The Catholic Bioethics dictate an unusual procedure that I would reject, but it does (through double-effect) kill the baby and save the mother.

If you are referring to an ectopic pregnancy then the procedure you mention is not unusual, it was until the only available procedure, and unless the ectopic pregnancy is discovered early (before the fetus has a heart beat) it is still the best option.

On a completely different note, why is it that when I quote your posts they come up with all kinds of stuff about font and color but your posts don’t look any different than anyone else’s and they are not in different colors?

 

[TexanKnight]

And he never answered about those souls in heaven that decided to be aborted.

yeah…it is a common theme to ignore the points that prove your church is false

 

[kimg901]

yeah…it is a common theme to ignore the points that prove your church is false

True. Which got me thinking. What does this church have over its members that they cannot just leave even when all this evidence is presented to them. And its not even stuff people make up but actual writings from their own leaders. So if they are not to follow what past leaders said then smith is nothing but a man and his words mean nothing? Is this correct or do they pick and choose what’s good and what’s wrong? Doesn’t seem to me like the HS is doing a good job of guiding them.

 

[FormerXCatholic]

i do want to tell you that you are wrong in that a Catholic Priest (and more correctly a Catholic Bioethicist) does in fact recommend abortion in some instances. It is when the life of the mother is in danger and the fetus will die anyway. In this situation an abortion is the proper course of action. The Catholic Bioethics dictate an unusual procedure that I would reject, but it does (through double-effect) kill the baby and save the mother.

Prove it.

“Abortion is the proper course of action”. Your words, straight from an LDS member.

Double effect isn’t intentional killing. It’s a unintended consequence. Your misguided and confused as I see it.

 

[Stephen168]

The Catholic Church, the church Jesus started on the Rock of St. Peter, the one Jesus said the gates of hell “would not prevail against”, teaches the truth on abortion. NO EXCEPTIONS. Why? Because thou shalt not kill, ever, period.

By using the word “killing” many people will think you mean homicide. The Catholic Church justifies some homicide. Murder is what you mean.

I stand corrected, but if God isn’t leading us then all killing is against the commanments. Jesus told us to turn the other check so the self defense claim is a very narrow argument . And I don’t think God approves killing in wars, that’s a human attempt to justify killing. God knows war is caused by worldly motives, not Godly.

Murder is against the commandments. What you believe about war and self-defense is not necessarily what the Catholic Church teaches about war and self-defense. War and self-defense may always be homicide but they are not always murder.

Prove it.
“Abortion is the proper course of action”. Your words, straight from an LDS member.
Double effect isn’t intentional killing. It’s a unintended consequence. Your misguided and confused as I see it.

Double effect is not murder, because it is not intentional, but it is still homicide (killing.)
By continuing to use the word killing you allow Mormon apologists to equate their justification for homicide with the Catholic Church, because it has justifications for homicide.
Their argument is as follows:
-The Catholic Church allows “self-defense” as a justification for homicide (killing)
-The Mormon Church allows “We don’t like your parent” as a justification for homicide (killing)
-In both cases someone is dead (killed)
-Therefore, the Mormon Church is not worse than the Catholic Church.

The problem for the Mormon Church is that their justification for homicide is not just, and is therefore, still considered murder my most rational people.

 

[Horton]

True. Which got me thinking. What does this church have over its members that they cannot just leave even when all this evidence is presented to them. And its not even stuff people make up but actual writings from their own leaders. So if they are not to follow what past leaders said then smith is nothing but a man and his words mean nothing? Is this correct or do they pick and choose what’s good and what’s wrong? Doesn’t seem to me like the HS is doing a good job of guiding them.

The “thing” that keeps many mormons in the church even when presented with clear evidence that the mormon church is false is community. The LDS take over their lives. I live in a area with a huge LDS population and it permeates all areas of life here, business, school, social activities, and so on. We have communities in this part of our state that are about 95% LDS. When your business success is based on other LDS, when your wife’s social status is based on the LDS, when your child’s ability to play sports, engages in the arts, join Boy Scouts, or just plain have a social life is based on being LDS there is strong motivation to stay with the church that provides you a “place” even if the teachings & doctrines are all screwed up.

I’m fortunate I lived in a larger, more diverse community while raising my kids and could find alternatives for them so they didn’t feel left out. At one point we lived in one of those small communities of 95%+ mormon. My kids were left out of everything once the LDS knew we weren’t going to join them. We ended up selling our house there and moving to the larger city so my kids could have opportunities.