LDS and ancient record...

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I am waiting for the conversion of the Mormons…one of the first steps to let go of all these ‘documents’…
Hi,Kathleen…where here is one…coming home to Rome…👍

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8845796&posted=1#post8845796

I have since gotten married and have a wonderful family that is rooted in the LDS traditions. One afternoon I saw the Catholics come home commercial on TV and something in my heart that made me feel like I need to return home to the Catholic faith.
 
Got it.

And after I read what scholars have to say about the myriad of tangible, verified examples of both Egyptian hieroglyphics and Demotic scripts that have been unearthed by archeologists working in the Middle East, where should I go to read what scholars have to say about the myriad of tangible, verified examples of “Reformed Egyptian” that have been unearthed by archeologists in North America?
Still waiting, Parker.
 
I can understand taking back the golden plates (actually I can’t, but I will grant that highly debatable premise for the sake of argument). But why take back everything? There’s plenty of archeological evidence for pre-Christian Hebrew civilization, and it’s existence doesn’t appear to have decreased the faith of Jews and Christians.
Still waiting on this one, too.
 
Still waiting on this one, too.
Or he could just skip trying to prove fraudulent works and just come home to the Church already. Just sayin’. 😉
“…it is good to be tired and weary from fruitlessly seeking the true good, so that one can stretch out one’s arms to the Redeemer.” -Blaise Pascal, Pensees
 
Still waiting, Parker.

And after I read what scholars have to say about the myriad of tangible, verified examples of both Egyptian hieroglyphics and Demotic scripts that have been unearthed by archeologists working in the Middle East, where should I go to read what scholars have to say about the myriad of tangible, verified examples of “Reformed Egyptian” that have been unearthed by archeologists in North America?
Crdle2Grv,

One really looking in depth at that subject would become familiar that the Demotic scripts were not necessarily known and used by the general population of Egyptians, nor the hieroglyphics.

The historical record-keepers among the Nephites had that specific responsibility to do that, and kept the records by inscribing on a surface that would be preserved over time. They also stored the records away from the knowledge of everyone–hidden away until they took them out to inscribe more history from what they had observed.

The general population didn’t have the same written language as the written language on the “plates”. There was no need for them to learn that written language, since it was developed only specifically for preserving the history, and was passed on only to those few men who had a commandment from God to do so, knowing that that history was going to be preserved for being sent out into the world at a much later time in the general history of the world.

Another aspect of the “written language” is that all evidences of the Nephite culture were specifically, deliberately destroyed with vengeance by those other groups who fought against them, and by the descendants of these other groups. So any such evidences would have been destroyed when found, because of the tradition they had among them that said “If you find any evidence of that religious Nephite culture, destroy the evidence.”

So although there are certainly evidences that some groups in the ancient Americas had a form of writing and pictographs, one should not expect that what is discovered would replicate the written language developed by Nephi and Lehi for writing their history.
 
Still waiting on this one, too.

I can understand taking back the golden plates (actually I can’t, but I will grant that highly debatable premise for the sake of argument). But why take back everything? There’s plenty of archeological evidence for pre-Christian Hebrew civilization, and it’s existence doesn’t appear to have decreased the faith of Jews and Christians.
Crdl2Grv,

At some point there may be discovered some “pre-Christian Hebrew” evidences in the ancient America artifacts, but if so or if not then people are still left with the need to really practice what the apostle Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 1-3. The rational mind and rational evidence for spiritual knowledge is just not a match with what Paul wrote is the basis for spiritual knowledge.

The Old Testament states repeatedly that God used (and uses) those nations that were against the Jews to bring about the work He needed to have completed, which were prophesied to happen. (They wouldn’t have known they were instruments doing what God needed to have done, but they were.) This Nephite culture and opposing cultures case is the same kind of case, and God being omnipotent, with a plan for the need for faith among people, could certainly sweep off the evidence, and it would be very logical that this would happen so that freedom of choice becomes totally based on exercising faith, not gathering external evidence and “proof”.

As an example, one could read Hebrews 11 and see for example that Abraham acted on faith and went forward when the “real world” would have told him he was not being wise and was instead being foolish, but God knew differently.
 
Crdl2Grv,

At some point there may be discovered some “pre-Christian Hebrew” evidences in the ancient America artifacts, but if so or if not then people are still left with the need to really practice what the apostle Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 1-3. The rational mind and rational evidence for spiritual knowledge is just not a match with what Paul wrote is the basis for spiritual knowledge.

The Old Testament states repeatedly that God used (and uses) those nations that were against the Jews to bring about the work He needed to have completed, which were prophesied to happen. (They wouldn’t have known they were instruments doing what God needed to have done, but they were.) This Nephite culture and opposing cultures case is the same kind of case, and God being omnipotent, with a plan for the need for faith among people, could certainly sweep off the evidence, and it would be very logical that this would happen so that freedom of choice becomes totally based on exercising faith, not gathering external evidence and “proof”.

As an example, one could read Hebrews 11 and see for example that Abraham acted on faith and went forward when the “real world” would have told him he was not being wise and was instead being foolish, but God knew differently.
So 1 John 4:1 is out the window then? 🤷
Sheep and lemmings Parker - big difference.
 
So 1 John 4:1 is out the window then? 🤷
Sheep and lemmings Parker - big difference.
theidler,

1 John 4:1 and all the writings of John definitely apply.

Joseph Smith testified that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. I can testify, through knowledge confirmed by the Spirit of God, that Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, came in the flesh, was resurrected, and lives today. 1 John 4:2 applies.

“Christ” refers specifically to “Anointed One”, and thus refers to Isaiah 61:1-3. Jesus Christ fulfilled and is still fulfilling Isaiah 61:1-3. He came in the flesh to do that very thing, as the divine Son of God.👍
 
Ancient records…

I think it would help the Mormons very much if they could let go of their attachment of the King James Version and its beautiful usage of English, and consider a Catholic one…that has the Books of Wisdom and Sirach. Here, these books would show what true wisdom is, and not an undefined one Mormons say Eve was truly seeking in wanting to eat the forbidden fruit to become as a god.

Christology and scholastic theological evolved over time in the Catholic Church, drawn from the original Apostles Creed to then the more defined Nicene Creed…even today our English translation of the Resurrection’s Sunday Feast is now being re-defined drawing from the original Latin translation provided us, which in turn draws on literal Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. It further defines that Christ is of the same substance as the Father…only One God.

The entire book of the Bible is one, resounding praise of the One, True God…as well as likewise admonition as found here in Psalm 116: 10…"I trusted, even when I said: ‘I am sorely afflicted,’ and when I said in my alarm: No man can be trusted.’

Drawing on the Books of Wisdom and Sirach the universe is created by the One True God to be that of rational and orderly structure. There is the rationality of the universe.
The foundation of the study of natural law as taught by the Catholic Church is found in Wisdom 11:21…

"But you (God) have disposed all things by measure and number and weight…:If the measurement of natural law that is applied, and yet there is no historical, archaeological, sociological artifacts to prove such usage of golden plates, ‘reformed Egyptian calligraphy’, a peep hat, special glasses…then by reason alone, these uses simply have not existed.

Such claims are man made and not of God.

Subsequently, Christians base our faith on God and not man-made conjecturing and forged documents that cannot stand up to objective and independent scientific disciplines of diagnostics to prove their reliability.
 
theidler,

1 John 4:1 and all the writings of John definitely apply.

Joseph Smith testified that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. I can testify, through knowledge confirmed by the Spirit of God, that Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, came in the flesh, was resurrected, and lives today. 1 John 4:2 applies.

“Christ” refers specifically to “Anointed One”, and thus refers to Isaiah 61:1-3. Jesus Christ fulfilled and is still fulfilling Isaiah 61:1-3. He came in the flesh to do that very thing, as the divine Son of God.👍
“1 John 4: [1] Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. [2] By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: [3] And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.”

In that passage, contrary to the way most people read it, John was probably not just referring to normal men of flesh and bone that could come to them teaching error, but the ‘spirits’ that might appear to them in visions, or whisper to them in their ‘spiritual ears’. Prophets are those men that receive visions and/or ‘whisperings’ from God, that tell them what God wants them to do. False prophets are those that may think they receive visions or whatever from God, but they’re deceived. They’re the ones that listen to, and follow, ‘spirits’ that are not really from God, at all, but from the devil. They’re the ones that Paul referred to as coming to men as an “angel of light”. "2 Corinthians 11: [13] For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

John (and Paul) was telling the Disciples that any ‘spirit’ that reduces the power or majesty of Jesus, Himself, or God the Father, or the Holy Spirit into humanistic terms, or tries to deflect them away from what they were taught by the true Apostles, is not from God. Many of the ‘false prophets’ that he spoke of, are the ones that follow spirits that are not from God. There have been many of them that have been led astray over the centuries by those ‘spirits’. Apparently, it’s been happening among Christians since before the time John wrote this Epistle. It’s not something that will only happen near the end of time. It’s been happening throughout history, even during the time of the Old Testament, because there are many references to false prophets in it, as well.

This is why the Catholic Church has learned to be very careful about fully investigating anyone that claims to be receiving any kind of visions, or ‘messages’ from God, in private revelations. They can lead many people astray if their visions are not authentic and don’t really come from God. Not everyone receives actual spiritual manifestations from God, especially that are meant to deliver any message to other people. Those are a very special gift that is only given to a few, that are specifically chosen by God to deliver such messages to the Church. Private revelations are certainly possible for any individual (they’re usually referred to as ‘spiritual consolations’), but even those are few and far between for most people.

Isaiah 61 is all about Jesus Christ, and the Church that He established on Peter. 👍
 
Crdle2Grv,

The historical record-keepers among the Nephites had that specific responsibility to do that, and kept the records by inscribing on a surface that would be preserved over time. They also stored the records away from the knowledge of everyone–hidden away until they took them out to inscribe more history from what they had observed.
So, Parker…can you give us an idea…how many were such record keepers? How were they trained and schooled?

And if they did indeed go a good job of keeping records…can you provide samples of such records, artifacts? archeological evidence?
 
Crdl2Grave,

I suppose that I should go ahead and post what I felt impressed to add after I had responded to your question and to the other question that followed, from “theidler”. It bears on both subjects.

Jude and Peter both refer to “Balaam” (who had been a prophet at one time, but ended up being enticed by “reward” (Jude 1:11) as recounted in Numbers 22. His situation is an example of a “false prophet”, in that he was enticed by a reward offered by King Balak rather than listening to the Spirit, and thus he endangered the Israelites while it could be perceived that he was only being mildly disobedient.

Balaam is one who followed the “real world” and his own wisdom and thinking, instead of following the Spirit to do exactly what the Spirit said to do and say. Thus he became an example for Peter and Jude to warn the early church members using that example of one who was enticed by worldly things and by rationalization. They were warning the members as well as the local leaders through that example from way back in the history of the house of Israel.
 
So, Parker…can you give us an idea…how many were such record keepers? How were they trained and schooled?

And if they did indeed go a good job of keeping records…can you provide samples of such records, artifacts? archeological evidence?
Pablope,

There was one man at a time during their history who had that specific responsibility to continue keeping the record, so as a father or brother realized he was soon going to die, that person taught the son or a brother the special record-keeping language that had been developed by Nephi and Lehi. Nephi taught his brother Jacob, Jacob taught his son Enos, Enos taught his son, and so forth down through centuries of time.

My point was and still is that the only place that special language was used, was on those special “plates”, so there would be no artifacts containing that special language, because Moroni took charge of the plates as was his responsibility to do as directed by God.
 
Pablope,

There was one man at a time during their history who had that specific responsibility to continue keeping the record, so as a father or brother realized he was soon going to die, that person taught the son or a brother the special record-keeping language that had been developed by Nephi and Lehi. Nephi taught his brother Jacob, Jacob taught his son Enos, Enos taught his son, and so forth down through centuries of time.

My point was and still is that the only place that special language was used, was on those special “plates”, so there would be no artifacts containing that special language, because Moroni took charge of the plates as was his responsibility to do as directed by God.
Parker, not ONE non-LDS scholar holds that “Nephi” and all the rest of these characters were ever real people. I might as well draw a stick man on a piece of paper, name it “Schlectenschloob” and say he is a real person, and it will have the same credibility.
As for the “special language”, so what you’re saying is we can never actually see the special language because God took the plates back (because *that *would obviously help the whole Restoration of the Gospel - restore the Gospel, then hide everything away so no one believes you!). So what do you expect reasonable people to do? We aren’t talking about faith here Parker, we’re talking about Joseph Smith duping a ton of people and somehow getting away with it.
A language that no one can see, on plates that no one can see, by a guy whose history is incredibly sketchy, by a group whose beginnings are incredibly racist and bizarre…that’s not something that requires faith Parker. If I applied that kind of faith in my life, I’d be off supporting Sun Myung Moon or the Raelians, or buying every single trendy item I see on TV.
 
Parker, problem with Mormonism is like all the others…it does not believe in One, Transcendent Creator…and subsequently, as the Incarnation is bound with the laws of nature…Wisdom 11:21, the claims of Joseph Smith…all of them do not stand up to the science of circumstantial evidence or proof…

Mormonism rejects Christianity and the Church, but uses its sources but under the interpretation of Joseph Smith, a man, rather than the Holy Spirit…His fruits – described in StephenKent’s take on the latter part of Proverbs 8…it was actually about Wisdom…the greatest fruit of the Holy Spirit, not some man talking.

We cannot find anything to support Mormons’ ancient records, but we can find in Catholicism.

We see the universe as having order and predictability…and therefore, Mormonism falls in the same class as Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu and Mayan civilizations, where creator and creatures are mixed as same…and as Fr Stanley Jaki stated, ‘the earlier technical innovations of Greco-Roman times, of Islam, of imperial China, let alone those achieved in prehistoric times, do not constitute science…(that uses experience’ to diagnose and prove) … and are better described as lore, skills, wisdom, techniques, crafts, technologies, engineering, learning, or simply knowledge.’

I took senior level classes in literature that covered form – mythology being one of them…and academically speaking, Smith’s presentation and style is on the level of mythology…and condemnation of Christianity…the two make for a dangerous mix that cause one to seek the truth in another venue.
 
theidler,

1 John 4:1 and all the writings of John definitely apply.

Joseph Smith testified that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. I can testify, through knowledge confirmed by the Spirit of God, that Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, came in the flesh, was resurrected, and lives today. 1 John 4:2 applies.

“Christ” refers specifically to “Anointed One”, and thus refers to Isaiah 61:1-3. Jesus Christ fulfilled and is still fulfilling Isaiah 61:1-3. He came in the flesh to do that very thing, as the divine Son of God.👍
KathleenGee and theidler and Telstar,

I really meant what I wrote above. It’s as simple as that. John knew what he was writing, and what he meant. I also know what he meant.

Peace to each of you and to all readers.🙂
 
KathleenGee and theidler and Telstar,

I really meant what I wrote above. It’s as simple as that. John knew what he was writing, and what he meant. I also know what he meant.

Peace to each of you and to all readers.🙂
I have no doubt you really meant it. What does your “really meaning it” have to do with the discussion?
 
Pablope,

There was one man at a time during their history who had that specific responsibility to continue keeping the record, so as a father or brother realized he was soon going to die, that person taught the son or a brother the special record-keeping language that had been developed by Nephi and Lehi. Nephi taught his brother Jacob, Jacob taught his son Enos, Enos taught his son, and so forth down through centuries of time.

My point was and still is that the only place that special language was used, was on those special “plates”, so there would be no artifacts containing that special language, because Moroni took charge of the plates as was his responsibility to do as directed by God.
:eek: A one man job? Must have been a superhuman…right?

So let me get these…this writer would get the gold, melt it, shape it, pound it or smith it…fashion it into something to write on…and finally, when all is said and done…he would finally write on it…by chiseling (maybe)…the characters…on the plates…so how long do you think it would take for this one person to finish a chapter…well, let us make it simple…a page…so one week, one month?

Then…when all is said and done, an angel would take it away from him…what was the reason the angel Moroni would take the plates away? What is the purpose of getting and hiding them?
 
:eek: A one man job? Must have been a superhuman…right?

So let me get these…this writer would get the gold, melt it, shape it, pound it or smith it…fashion it into something to write on…and finally, when all is said and done…he would finally write on it…by chiseling (maybe)…the characters…on the plates…so how long do you think it would take for this one person to finish a chapter…well, let us make it simple…a page…so one week, one month?

Then…when all is said and done, an angel would take it away from him…what was the reason the angel Moroni would take the plates away? What is the purpose of getting and hiding them?
That was (sort of) answered already - it’s basically so that people will believe in Mormon teaching by (blind) faith.
Poor marketing for a restoration of the gospel if you ask me.

It would be like if I was the head of a cheese company, and began marketing bricks as truly being delicious aged cheddar when in fact they were actually bricks used to build fireplaces. Except, I would also hide the bricks from everyone so that no one would ever see them (except for a few people seeing them with their spiritual eyes) or actually know if they were ever, in fact, cheese, instead hoping that all those interested in purchasing my brand of cheese will actually believe that my bricks are actual cheese and accept my words as true - but of course, no one will ever see the bricks, just the packaging that I say they will be packaged in.
 
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