LDS and ancient record...

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Pablope,

It would have been an alloy with gold as part of the alloy, and the plates were made by Nephi and by Mormon. The others wrote on plates that had already been made for future use.

They didn’t chisel–they used what one could call a “stylus” that would make an indelible imprint into the metallic surface.

Preciousness, sacredness, and the commandment of God.
Hmmmm…so Parker…how could a stylus make an imprint on an alloy plate? Unless it is pressed to somehow, chiseled?

Was this some sort of special stylus?

And where do you get such details are Nephi and Mormon making the plates…and the others writing in the already made plates? Is this in the Book of Mormon?

And this is for the future, correct? So how could they know how many plates to make?
 
theidler;8856022**:
Parker, you never addressed my issue regarding why the plates were taken away from men - two of the reasons you cited were preciousness and sacredness.
Do preciousness and sacredness not apply to the manuscripts of the Bible? Why do we possess those manuscripts in abundance, but not the plates for the Book of Mormon?:confused:

And just an aside - why are you on a Catholic forum anyways? I hear you have been on here forever - if you truly believe in all the peace and to each his own way sort of thing, why are you on here? Looking for converts perhaps? Or simply just to debate? I’m simply curious.🤷

Come to think of it…I also asked that question…and Parker has not answered it yet…maybe he is waiting for some revelation for the answer, perhaps…:D:shrug:
 
No, it’s that I don’t know what might happen in the future, and there already are evidences of Hebrew connections to some ancient America artifacts,

Prove it. Prove it with archaeologists and scientists that are NOT LDS…if you can…

so that would be expected to happen in the future also if more evidences were uncovered.

That is a typical response for anyone who knows they are wrong. “Prove to me that you have a million dollars. Response: I could show you, but you will not believe me anyway, so why show you?”

The “homework” is to learn how to pray and ask God for answers, and have the Holy Ghost such that one is assured when they receive an answer, that it is from God.

Awesome! I did that and God clearly told me that the LDS Church is false and that non-heavenly angells fool LDS Members.

Another way to look at it is that the Bible is given to all, with external evidence available, for all who will to come unto Christ and learn about how to love one another as He exemplified.

It is the Word of God, so there is external evidence

The Book of Mormon is for those who want to do more “homework” than that

Wrong. We have done PLENTY of homework with the Bible…the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction, so you cannot find evidence of it no matter how much homework you do. It is like Narnia…a fictional place you can;t find.

So the Book of Mormon is “homework” for those who want those things, and can be left alone by those who don’t.

Luckily, I have read the Book of Mormon more than once. I carry the LDS Scriptures App on my iphone and Ipad…along with my Patriarchal Blessing and Line of Authority. So, since I did the homework, I do not have to leave it alone. I can call it what it is…false.
 
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TexanKnight:
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So, Parker… who’s the “chosen one” to keep the secret historic record of the LDS people, complete with a special language that only he knows? You know, in case by some strange turn of events they ever get completely destroyed, without a trace. Is there someone writing LDS history on ‘golden plates’ for some future time when the church needs to be ‘restored’ again? It seems logical that they would learn from the past that they could all be completely erased from history, somehow, and some future Joseph Smith would need to find their records so they could start over. Just wondering. :hmmm:
 
Miriam,

Here are pertinent verses from the Book of Mormon to answer your question:

Mormon 9:30 Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words.

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

Jacob 1:1 For behold, it came to pass that fifty and five years had passed away from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; wherefore, Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven.

2 And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates a few of the things which I considered to be most precious; that I should not touch, save it were lightly, concerning the history of this people which are called the people of Nephi.

3 For he said that the history of his people should be engraven upon his other plates, and that I should preserve these plates and hand them down unto my seed, from generation to generation.

4 And if there were preaching which was sacred, or revelation which was great, or prophesying, that I should engraven the heads of them upon these plates, and touch upon them as much as it were possible, for Christ’s sake, and for the sake of our people.

Enos 1:1 Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that he was a just man—for he taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it—

13 And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him—that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed, and the Lamanites should not be destroyed, that the Lord God would preserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that it might be brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be brought unto salvation—

14 For at the present our strugglings were vain in restoring them to the true faith. And they swore in their wrath that, if it were possible, they would destroy our records and us, and also all the traditions of our fathers.

15 Wherefore, I knowing that the Lord God was able to preserve our records, I cried unto him continually, for he had said unto me: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive in the name of Christ, ye shall receive it.

16 And I had faith, and I did cry unto God that he would preserve the records; and he covenanted with me that he would bring them forth unto the Lamanites in his own due time.

17 And I, Enos, knew it would be according to the covenant which he had made; wherefore my soul did rest.

Jarom 1: 13 And it came to pass that two hundred and thirty and eight years had passed away—after the manner of wars, and contentions, and dissensions, for the space of much of the time.

14 And I, Jarom, do not write more, for the plates are small. But behold, my brethren, ye can go to the other plates of Nephi; for behold, upon them the records of our wars are engraven, according to the writings of the kings, or those which they caused to be written.

15 And I deliver these plates into the hands of my son Omni, that they may be kept according to the commandments of my fathers.

Mormon 1:1 And now I, Mormon, make a record of the things which I have both seen and heard, and call it the Book of Mormon.

2 And about the time that Ammaron hid up the records unto the Lord, he came unto me, (I being about ten years of age, and I began to be learned somewhat after the manner of the learning of my people) and Ammaron said unto me: I perceive that thou art a sober child, and art quick to observe;

3 Therefore, when ye are about twenty and four years old I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age go to the land Antum, unto a hill which shall be called Shim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord all the sacred engravings concerning this people.

4 And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that ye have observed concerning this people.
Parker, none of us on here but you and other members of the LDS movement acknowledge those texts as Scripture, so proving something from their pages is rather pointless. Christians of all stripes hold the Book of Mormon as a blatantly obvious forgery. I think we are all asking for some kind of external proof, record, evidence, anything to prove these things, not the book itself. The Qur’an says within its texts that it is true - do you believe it as well? If not, why not? Asking yourself that will give you a glimpse of why we hold our position on the Christian side of this debate.
 
Before Joseph Smith’s Mormonism, there was Gnostic teachings that were eradicated by St. Irenaeus…after that…this kind of thinking associated with Christianity has been literally unknown…

I posted on another thread that it was Martin Luther who then wrote after his fracture with the Church, that there is no divine authority in the Church, that the apostolic succession never happened, and that God exists in communities…and his liturgies he composed focused not on the Word of God, but on the man, the person – at the homily.

So from Luther’s point of view, he removed Christ’s convenant to always be with us, He would send us His Holy Spirit to guide the Church…

And what you have is now the focus turning from God to man, a man based church…based on whims and fancies…if you don’t like this community, go to another.

Christianity is the greatest ‘block’ in the USA…but it is worthless because it is totally fragmented…and we are dominated by the militant secular atheists.

Thank you, Luther. Shame on you, Joseph Smith.

And Mormons sing songs about this man and praise him in their assemblies?..
 
Regarding infallibility…

The Catholic deposit of faith is infallible, and provides us the full and complete understanding of Jesus Christ. It is not about us.

It is about people coming to God in His Church. The Church is as a mother who guides and nurtures us but does not take the place of God. That would be idolatry.

Our Catholic faith is of God. Our faith in God is always in communion with believers.

Our faith does not revolve a pope or a bishop, or any man. We do not believe in the Lone Ranger Man as head of our church.

Our faith is based on Jesus Christ and the deposit of faith, which is infallible. When popes, bishops, believers draw on the faith, it is being taught infallibly.

Catholic lay people who are sharing Catholic doctrine here, are speaking infallibly as well.

The Catechism is speaking infallibly.

Again…I am seeing that the great problem between Catholics and non-Catholics, without the papacy, is that you are looking at man…and not the belief in God that the Church finds its source of life.

So when the Holy Father speaks infallibly, he is drawing on the Deposit of Faith, in communion with all the bishops and believers united.

Big difference vs Joseph Smith, a single man without testing, who exalted himself as providing a contradicting witness to Christ Himself.
 
If you would leave us alone, we would leave it alone. But perhaps you are so compulsive that you can’t.
Hi, Jerusha,

It’s that I’ve found that a daughter of mine whose health is fragile, seems to improve if I go ahead and get involved again in this forum after she had taken a turn for the worse, even though my personal preference would be to let it be. But I assume it won’t be much longer that she will be better and I will have given my perspective on the subjects brought up as questions.
 
Parker, I am truly sorry about your daughter and hope she recovers. I will say a Rosary for her tonight.

May God Bless You and her…
 
Hi, Jerusha,

It’s that I’ve found that a daughter of mine whose health is fragile, seems to improve if I go ahead and get involved again in this forum after she had taken a turn for the worse, even though my personal preference would be to let it be. But I assume it won’t be much longer that she will be better and I will have given my perspective on the subjects brought up as questions.
I can understand that reason from your perspective. No counter-attack here, I really don’t like to get personal. Perhaps the resurgence of Mormon-related threads has something to do with politics.
 
Parker, you never addressed my issue regarding why the plates were taken away from men - two of the reasons you cited were preciousness and sacredness. Do preciousness and sacredness not apply to the manuscripts of the Bible? Why do we possess those manuscripts in abundance, but not the plates for the Book of Mormon?:confused:
Hi, theidler,

It was a different situation, and God had a different purpose going on. The Jews as you know were God’s covenant people, and having what we now read as the Old Testament records was important to them, and was inspired. If there had been a worry that all the writings would be destroyed “with a vengeance” by outsiders, then it is very likely that God would have inspired some of the prophets to inscribe the writings onto “plates” and hide them away. (Same with the New Testament). God knowing all things, knew that those records would be preserved enough that we would have the Bible among us to bless all of us and bless many generations.
And just an aside - why are you on a Catholic forum anyways? I hear you have been on here forever - if you truly believe in all the peace and to each his own way sort of thing, why are you on here? Looking for converts perhaps? Or simply just to debate? I’m simply curious.🤷
Definitely not to “debate”.

I arrived from a Google search when it occurred to me to look up and see if I found an entry I had made on a website that has Latter-day Saint topical subjects presented. (It didn’t come up on the search, but the Catholic site did; then I noticed one could add comments to answer questions, and noticed a lot of what I considered incorrect information being presented about Latter-day Saint beliefs, so I felt like I should participate.

I also have learned a lot through thinking about questions brought up in comparison with Biblical teachings. So even that aspect has been worth my time.
 
Hmmmm…so Parker…how could a stylus make an imprint on an alloy plate? Unless it is pressed to somehow, chiseled?

Was this some sort of special stylus?

And where do you get such details are Nephi and Mormon making the plates…and the others writing in the already made plates? Is this in the Book of Mormon?

And this is for the future, correct? So how could they know how many plates to make?
Pablope,

I used the word “stylus” just as a comparison word for a “sharp object with hardness (in physics) harder than the surface being inscribed”. They would have had to figure out how to do that, or be inspired how to do that.

I think part of what I had included just previously had that Nephi made plates, and others used plates already made. I assume Nephi was inspired to make hundreds of “plate pages” for the future when he had the time, knowing that he had the skill that others might not have later on, and had the time.

Moroni makes a comment at one point in his “assignment”, to the effect that “ore I have none”, and these plates are nearly “full”. Later, he adds more, so he must have located some ore and known how to make more “plate pages.”
 
Come to think of it…I also asked that question…and Parker has not answered it yet…maybe he is waiting for some revelation for the answer, perhaps…:D:shrug:
I’ve been extremely busy with family events and a large snowstorm that meant a lot of snow shoveling around my home. Peace.
 
No, it’s that I don’t know what might happen in the future, and there already are evidences of Hebrew connections to some ancient America artifacts…
Got it. God didn’t remove all evidence of Nephite civilization.

So for the record, God both did and did not remove all evidence of Nephite civilization, and He did (and did not!) so in order to give people a greater (also, a lesser!) opportunity to grow in faith.

Pretty sure we’re all on board at this point.
 
Hi, Jerusha,

It’s that I’ve found that a daughter of mine whose health is fragile, seems to improve if I go ahead and get involved again in this forum after she had taken a turn for the worse, even though my personal preference would be to let it be. But I assume it won’t be much longer that she will be better and I will have given my perspective on the subjects brought up as questions.
That’s terrible news. I’m so sorry to hear that.

You and your family will be in my thoughts and prayers.
 
So, Parker… who’s the “chosen one” to keep the secret historic record of the LDS people, complete with a special language that only he knows? You know, in case by some strange turn of events they ever get completely destroyed, without a trace. Is there someone writing LDS history on ‘golden plates’ for some future time when the church needs to be ‘restored’ again? It seems logical that they would learn from the past that they could all be completely erased from history, somehow, and some future Joseph Smith would need to find their records so they could start over. Just wondering. :hmmm:
Hi, Telstar,

We have archive records on microfilm, microfiche, computer disks, and so forth stored in vaults in a mountain–not thinking they might be destroyed (no worries there at all), but as precautions because God expects great care to be taken with those kinds of records.

There is no need for a “special language” today–the language the Nephite historians used had to do with saving space on the “plate pages” as compared with writing in Hebrew, which evidently they could have done but it would have taken more space on the “plate pages”.

There are different “computer programming languages” that save time and “lines of code”. That might be a comparison someone could roughly make to think about this need for a “space saving” language.
 
Got it. God didn’t remove all evidence of Nephite civilization.

So for the record, God both did and did not remove all evidence of Nephite civilization, and He did (and did not!) so in order to give people a greater (also, a lesser!) opportunity to grow in faith.

Pretty sure we’re all on board at this point.
Crdle2Grv,

They are not dramatic evidences, although I have heard several different sources tell of a visitor who was a great teacher among the ancient American inhabitants, which I think is dramatic.

The other evidences are what I would consider “only clues”, but others would consider “coincidental” or “not a clue at all.”
 
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