LDS and Catholic Differences

[paul_c]

PaulC, the way I read Diana’s post, she’s comparing an LDS bishop to an parish priest (or Protestant minister), and NOT to a bishop in the Catholic system. These two posts (LDS bishop, parish priest) in the two faiths seem to be “rough” equivalents of one another. I think her comparison is quite reasonable.

Even comparing an LDS bishops position to a catholic priest is a huge stretch. the average Catholic parish has got to be 10 times bigger than the average LDS church. The Catholic priests training is 6-8 years in teh seminary. What training is required for an LDS bishop. The typical LDS bishop has a full time job and a family so there aren’t a lot of hours left for taking care of the flock. The Catholic priest has a very busy full time job, administering the sacraments, counseling those that need it, managing the parish activities and charities etc. And he is completely focused on it and does it for little more than room and board.

 

[sablouwho]

The average Catholic parish has got to be 10 times bigger than the average LDS church.

At the parishes in my area, the larger ones have more than one priest, so one priest isn’t doing all the work. And then there is the parish staff, which at one parish in particular is sizeable. I of course have no idea what any of this is like where you live.

When an LDS ward gets to a certain size (I am not sure what that size is, I think I remember hearing that it is around 500 members), it is split into two wards. So by definition, an LDS bishop is going to have a responsibility for only a limited number of people. Whereas parish sizes (at least where I live) seem to be more variable.

The comparison between an LDS bishop and a Catholic priest is not an exact apples-to-apples comparison, but from what I can tell, it is the closest one can make when looking at the way the two organizations are structured.

 

[TheosisM]

Does baptizing people for the dead without their consent bother you?

Since I’ve read dianaiad’s posts on baptism for the dead multiple times, even on threads that were not about it, I think that I already know her response to this:

-baptism for the dead offers someone a choice. It doesn’t make someone Mormon, as it only offers them a choice to accept or reject. It is always up to the dead person whether they accept or reject the effects of the baptism. It doesn’t change anything about them, unless they choose for it to.

-Indelible mark theology causes a permanent change in the soul, and in the case of infants, without their consent. You can’t undo this, even if the infant grows up and now has a choice in what they do, hence the phrase “Once a Catholic, always a Catholic”.

Now, my own view of this is that, yes, Catholic theology of baptism does create an indelible mark on the soul, and in the case of infants, it is without their consent. However, one can choose later in life to accept or reject this inheritance. Mortal sin is a rejection of that “indelible mark” and what it means. Yes, it’s still there, however one is turning away from it through mortal sin. I hope that made sense.

 

[FCEGM]

Even comparing an LDS bishops position to a catholic priest is a huge stretch. the average Catholic parish has got to be 10 times bigger than the average LDS church. The Catholic priests training is 6-8 years in teh seminary. What training is required for an LDS bishop. The typical LDS bishop has a full time job and a family so there aren’t a lot of hours left for taking care of the flock. The Catholic priest has a very busy full time job, administering the sacraments, counseling those that need it, managing the parish activities and charities etc. And he is completely focused on it and does it for little more than room and board.

Paul, in my parish we have over 6,000 registered households and two priests and three deacons.

 

[ParkerD]

To the general reader,
I have no knowledge of whether there is a position similar to an LDS “Relief Society” president in a ward, but this woman takes a very large load off of the shoulders of the bishop of an LDS ward, and has two counselors as does the bishop, who also shoulder a load, as do other presidency officers and also youth leaders, all of whom meet in council about assignments.

As to “paid” “General Authorities”, the $70,000 per year figure that one article cited was probably about right for those living in the United States (outside, less, except in England and Japan where living costs are higher), and that means they get to live in a house and pay their mortgage and keep up their family and have family vacations with their children. Anyone who thinks “$70,000” is a large corporate “salary” for a top-level officer in a company, has not been in the corporate world at all nor read the newspapers. Anyone who thinks traveling week in and week out with a rigorous schedule as that person travels to different parts of the world sounds like a joy ride, has not traveled much or if they did, didn’t work during their travel time.

 

[PaulDupre]

As to “paid” “General Authorities”, the $70,000 per year figure that one article cited was probably about right for those living in the United States (outside, less, except in England and Japan where living costs are higher), and that means they get to live in a house and pay their mortgage and keep up their family and have family vacations with their children. Anyone who thinks “$70,000” is a large corporate “salary” for a top-level officer in a company, has not been in the corporate world at all nor read the newspapers. Anyone who thinks traveling week in and week out with a rigorous schedule as that person travels to different parts of the world sounds like a joy ride, has not traveled much or if they did, didn’t work during their travel time.

Travel expenses, btw, are not included in the GA salaries. They have corporate credit cards they use to pay expenses associated with their jobs. These expenses are then paid by the church.

 

[paul_c]

At the parishes in my area, the larger ones have more than one priest, so one priest isn’t doing all the work. And then there is the parish staff, which at one parish in particular is sizeable. I of course have no idea what any of this is like where you live.

When an LDS ward gets to a certain size (I am not sure what that size is, I think I remember hearing that it is around 500 members), it is split into two wards. So by definition, an LDS bishop is going to have a responsibility for only a limited number of people. Whereas parish sizes (at least where I live) seem to be more variable.

The comparison between an LDS bishop and a Catholic priest is not an exact apples-to-apples comparison, but from what I can tell, it is the closest one can make when looking at the way the two organizations are structured.

My parish has over 12000 parishioners and 3 priests.

 

[RebeccaJ]

My parish has over 12000 parishioners and 3 priests.

 

[ParkerD]

Travel expenses, btw, are not included in the GA salaries. They have corporate credit cards they use to pay expenses associated with their jobs. These expenses are then paid by the church.

I am supposing you realize that this is the case for every corporate job in the United States that requires travel. There are many such jobs where the traveler is paid a “per diem” that may be higher than their actual expenses, and some of those are because the tax laws have made that a more acceptable and expected practice than having them list their actual itemized expenses. So the GA travel expenses being paid is not out of the ordinary at all.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m a bit confused here. Are LDS arguing for, or against, paid clergy?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m a bit confused here. Are LDS arguing for, or against, paid clergy?

Against Catholic paid clergy and for Mormon paid clergy…

 

[zaffiroborant]

Against Catholic paid clergy and for Mormon paid clergy…

Reminiscent of the school thing, where it is a good when LDS subsidize students and bad when Catholics do it.

 

[ParkerD]

Against Catholic paid clergy and for Mormon paid clergy…

Prodigal Son1,
If you’re asking me, then I think there is a distinction between “clergy” who serve at the local congregational level, and “apostles” or “mission presidents” who have a special calling that means they leave their profession and serve full time, all the time, except when their family takes a vacation. It is helpful for an LDS bishop (a “clergy”) to be out in the work-a-day world, because that makes them more in touch with the common problems of the people they are serving. If the apostles had the time to do both, then it would make sense for them to continue in their work-a-day world jobs (which they had before they were called as a General Authority), but they simply don’t have the time to do both, considering the administrative burden on their time.

So that distinction should always be made when considering this subject fairly and objectively, including understanding about an LDS bishop’s next file leader (stake president, who has a day job), and an Area Seventy (who also has a day job).

 

[paul_c]

Prodigal Son1,
If you’re asking me, then I think there is a distinction between “clergy” who serve at the local congregational level, and “apostles” or “mission presidents” who have a special calling that means they leave their profession and serve full time, all the time, except when their family takes a vacation. It is helpful for an LDS bishop (a “clergy”) to be out in the work-a-day world, because that makes them more in touch with the common problems of the people they are serving. If the apostles had the time to do both, then it would make sense for them to continue in their work-a-day world jobs (which they had before they were called as a General Authority), but they simply don’t have the time to do both, considering the administrative burden on their time.

So that distinction should always be made when considering this subject fairly and objectively, including understanding about an LDS bishop’s next file leader (stake president, who has a day job), and an Area Seventy (who also has a day job).

There’s plusses and minuses to everything. While you see it as a plus that your clergy are part time, relatively untrained individuals, with jobs and families like everyone else. so that they can relate to their congregations, we see it as a huge plus that our clergy are highly trained in theology and counseling and devote themselves entirely to God and their congregations. The fact that these men give up everything to serve (families, money, and are sworn to obey their bishops) just adds to their moral authority. And they serve many, many more people than do their Mormon counter parts and thus have a much bigger public role… The diocese of New York has more CAtholics than there are Mormons in the entire US and the Catholic Church worldwide is about 100 times bigger than the LDS

 

[zaffiroborant]

Prodigal Son1,
If you’re asking me, then I think there is a distinction between “clergy” who serve at the local congregational level, and “apostles” or “mission presidents” who have a special calling that means they leave their profession and serve full time, all the time, except when their family takes a vacation. It is helpful for an LDS bishop (a “clergy”) to be out in the work-a-day world, because that makes them more in touch with the common problems of the people they are serving. If the apostles had the time to do both, then it would make sense for them to continue in their work-a-day world jobs (which they had before they were called as a General Authority), but they simply don’t have the time to do both, considering the administrative burden on their time.

So that distinction should always be made when considering this subject fairly and objectively, including understanding about an LDS bishop’s next file leader (stake president, who has a day job), and an Area Seventy (who also has a day job).

And we receive objective consideration from people who have generations of people that were taught that ministers of other faiths are the “paid” minions of Satan, over and over and over, again and again. Ya right that is conducive to objectivity. I’ve seen posts dripping with contempt and derision from LDS on this subject.

 

[aspirant]

What is the modest pay of a Priest?

From what I can tell, it varies a lot from diocese to diocese. It probably depends on many factors, like the income of the diocese, the expenses of the diocese, the cost of living in the area, and so forth.

I live in a county with very high median incomes and a very high cost of living. The median income for a household is about $85-95K, and the median income for a family is about $100-125K. The cost of living in this county is more than 150% of the U.S. average. I looked at the latest financial report of one of the parishes in the diocese and found that the average priest’s income at that parish was about $25K. That’s at least $40K less than the average elementary school teacher in the county, from what I can tell. But a priest usually lives a very simple and modest life, so he does not need much. Most of the priests I know give a large portion of their income away.

As to “paid” “General Authorities”, the $70,000 per year figure that one article cited was probably about right for those living in the United States

Less than the median income in my county (though chances many live in a place with a lower cost of living than my county). Most of them probably have a living wife. I don’t know how many still have dependent children, since they tend to be older men, but perhaps some do. It’s a lot more money than I make, but could be considered modest compared to what they might be making doing other work.

Personally, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either Catholic priests or LDS General Authorities receiving adequate compensation for their work, and I don’t understand why anyone would have a problem with it. Both work for their churches full time, they do not have time for other careers or means of support. When Jesus sent out his disciples, he told them to eat and drink what was provided by their hosts, “for the laborer deserves his wages.” And though St. Paul said “I have made no use of any of these rights,” he clearly maintained that it was a true right: “Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.”

I think there is a distinction between “clergy” who serve at the local congregational level, and “apostles” or “mission presidents” who have a special calling that means they leave their profession and serve full time, all the time, except when their family takes a vacation.

All of our clergy do the latter: they serve the parish and/or diocese full time, except when they receive some personal time for retreats, etc.

 

[PaulDupre]

I am supposing you realize that this is the case for every corporate job in the United States that requires travel. There are many such jobs where the traveler is paid a “per diem” that may be higher than their actual expenses, and some of those are because the tax laws have made that a more acceptable and expected practice than having them list their actual itemized expenses. So the GA travel expenses being paid is not out of the ordinary at all.

Of course I realize that, as I have a corporate credit card as well. I just wanted to make sure that naive Mormon children like wyp8riot realize it, since he/she did not know that the GAs received any compensation whatsoever.

“Clarity is more important than agreement.” - Dennis Prager

 

[wyp8riot]

Inego de Loyola

Thank you, so what is Petrine Catholic?

Thank you all for the replies.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Re: priest’s pay…priests that are in a religious order have taken vows of poverty. Any pay they receive is given to their order.

 

[Tmaque]

The notable difference here is that Catholic clergy give their entire lives to God, forgoing riches and marriage to serve. They do as Christ did and “have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”