LDS and Catholic Differences

[AMDGtoo]

So, it sounds like you felt it was a helpful book?

Yes, I felt that book was almost like a “healing ointment” for some rather bad treatment that I had received at the hands of some LDS. Felt like “Wow! An LDS of some authority is speaking the truth (instead of just “handing out” the usual faith promoting stories)–now why couldn’t that have been done before?” It felt almost like a relief.

Yes, I’d recommend the book. I also recommend a little book (I think it’s out-of-print now) entitled something like A Tale of Two Cities–the Vatican and Salt Lake City. It’s written by a Catholic priest who has LDS relatives and seems to take a compassionate view. And about the polygamy issue, there’s Todd Compton’s (also LDS) book, In Sacred Loneliness. Eyeopening.

 

[mfbukowski]

I apologize if I offended anyone.

 

[aspirant]

Felt like “Wow! An LDS of some authority is speaking the truth (instead of just “handing out” the usual faith promoting stories)–now why couldn’t that have been done before?” It felt almost like a relief.

I think you might enjoy B.H. Roberts’ Studies of the Book of Mormon. It’s been many years since I read it now, but I found it really instriguing at the time.

 

[aspirant]

I apologize if I offended anyone.

Blessings!

 

[C2M2C]

This is patently untrue. I, myself, hold two unpaid positions of service in my Catholic parish. I am a lector and a member of the Pastoral Council (which does take a fair amount of my time). There are hundreds of unpaid ways to serve in any Catholic parish:

altar server
choir
usher
hospitality ministry
decorating the church for feast days
traffic ministry
lector
cantor
Eucharistic minister
Christian service ministry (serving the poor)
prison ministry
sponsoring catechumens and candidates
teaching CCD, Sunday School, bible study, etc.
Financial council
Pastoral Council
Eucharistic adoration
prayer groups
and on and on…

The same is true in Protestant congregations. My younger brother and his wife are Evangelicals and they spend a lot of unpaid time in their church’s ministries, including missionary work.

Mormon arrogance is matched only by Mormon ignorance.

Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)

Paul, I agree. My wife is almost through RCIA and in our class last week we had all of the heads of the different ministries come and speak to us regarding all of the different opportunities to serve. Mormons often times make you think that they have the corner on many different markets like happiness, service to others, etc. After 18 years as one, I had forgotten that not only is happiness not exclusive to Mormons, but that are many other things, including “service” that are not exclusive to Mormonism…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I apologize if I offended anyone.

No problem cyber-neighbor. Faith is a personal thing and we **all **get exercised from time to time. One thing I can say about the LDS members I know is that almost to a man they are genuinely nice people. I’m guessing you’re a decent guy too, who feels quite strongly about his faith. I will never fault a person for that.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Marie5890]

The usage is different. For us, the word “sacrament” is roughly equivalent to the word “eucharist” for you. A “sacrament meeting” is a meeting of a congregation which includes blessing bread and water (instead of wine) and passing it in commemoration of the last supper and the savior’s admonition to “do this in remembrance of me”. Protestants and Catholics also use the word “communion” for this practice.

What you describe as “sacraments” (plural) we use the word “ordinances”.

The following are “ordinances”

Baptism
Confirmation
Sealing (Marriage) etc.

Just a quick comment here,
At first look the idea that the LDS sacrament is fairly equivelient to the Eucharist is understandable.

But deeper understanding of the Eucharist shows that not to be so.

Partaking of the Eucharist really is more akin to Mormons attending the Temple. The whole idea of communion with God, being with God.

For Mormons, partaking of the sacrament it more about remembering God and renewing baptismal covenants etc.

For Catholics the equivalient would be blessing themselves with holy water…

Eucharist sacredness really is much more equal to Mormons view of temple attendance, not so much of partaking of the sacrament.

 

[TheosisM]

Just a quick comment here,
At first look the idea that the LDS sacrament is fairly equivelient to the Eucharist is understandable.

But deeper understanding of the Eucharist shows that not to be so.

Partaking of the Eucharist really is more akin to Mormons attending the Temple. The whole idea of communion with God, being with God.

For Mormons, partaking of the sacrament it more about remembering God and renewing baptismal covenants etc.

For Catholics the equivalient would be blessing themselves with holy water…

Eucharist sacredness really is much more equal to Mormons view of temple attendance, not so much of partaking of the sacrament.

I agree. LDS temples are dedicated as a “House of the Lord”, where they go to be in a special presence of God and make special covenants with Him. Catholics believe that Catholic parishes are also Houses of the Lord, where Jesus Christ has a special, physical presence in the Eucharist.

 

[kikkichan]

mfbukowski,

Hi. please, if you don’t mind, what other “ordinances” are there; i.e., what’s included in your “etc”?

…
The following are “ordinances”

Baptism
Confirmation
Sealing (Marriage) etc.

And are all marriages “sealings”?

Thanks
-kc

The usage is different. For us, the word “sacrament” is roughly equivalent to the word “Eucharist” for you. A “sacrament meeting” is a meeting of a congregation which includes blessing bread and water (instead of wine) and passing it in commemoration of the last supper and the savior’s admonition to “do this in remembrance of me”. Protestants and Catholics also use the word “communion” for this practice.

What you describe as “sacraments” (plural) we use the word “ordinances”.

The following are “ordinances”

Baptism
Confirmation
Sealing (Marriage) etc.

 

[mfbukowski]

Just a quick comment here,
At first look the idea that the LDS sacrament is fairly equivelient to the Eucharist is understandable.

But deeper understanding of the Eucharist shows that not to be so.

Partaking of the Eucharist really is more akin to Mormons attending the Temple. The whole idea of communion with God, being with God.

For Mormons, partaking of the sacrament it more about remembering God and renewing baptismal covenants etc.

For Catholics the equivalient would be blessing themselves with holy water…

Eucharist sacredness really is much more equal to Mormons view of temple attendance, not so much of partaking of the sacrament.

I agree, and the parallels are much more extensive than this. I discussed this at some length with a former Catholic priest who was a fellow temple worker, and there has been quite a lot of literature generated about the parallels.

 

[mfbukowski]

Hi. please, if you don’t mind, what other “ordinances” are there; i.e., what’s included in your “etc”?

Baptisms, confirmations, endowments, eternal marriages, and sealings of couples and of families, ordinations, administering to the sick, and some others which are included in these- the endowment is a generalized term which actually describes a set of “sub-ordinances”.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Just a quick comment here,
At first look the idea that the LDS sacrament is fairly equivelient to the Eucharist is understandable.

But deeper understanding of the Eucharist shows that not to be so.

Partaking of the Eucharist really is more akin to Mormons attending the Temple. The whole idea of communion with God, being with God.

For Mormons, partaking of the sacrament it more about remembering God and renewing baptismal covenants etc.

For Catholics the equivalient would be blessing themselves with holy water…

Eucharist sacredness really is much more equal to Mormons view of temple attendance, not so much of partaking of the sacrament.

I agree.

 

[MyzTek]

Just a quick comment here,
At first look the idea that the LDS sacrament is fairly equivelient to the Eucharist is understandable.

But deeper understanding of the Eucharist shows that not to be so.

Partaking of the Eucharist really is more akin to Mormons attending the Temple. The whole idea of communion with God, being with God.

For Mormons, partaking of the sacrament it more about remembering God and renewing baptismal covenants etc.

For Catholics the equivalient would be blessing themselves with holy water…

Eucharist sacredness really is much more equal to Mormons view of temple attendance, not so much of partaking of the sacrament.

I also would agree with this. Several years ago when I was studying with the Mormon elders in my home a couple of times a week, and attending their testimony and sacrament meetings, the elders encouraged me to take the bread and water with them. This led to a little confusion when the following week we came to the scripture in I Corinthians 11 which says:

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

After talking with the Stake President, the elders told me it was OK and not to worry about it, but that I should not feel uncomfortable about not taking the bread and water if I wasn’t comfortable doing so; nobody would be offended.

To me this puts the Mormon view of the sacrament more in line with some protestant denominations’, as in Catholicism you should not receive at all until after confirmation. Likewise, in Mormonism one cannot participate in the Temples without a recommend.

 

[TheosisM]

, as in Catholicism you should not receive at all until after confirmation.

This may be true for converts, however for those raised in the Church, First Communion comes before Confirmation. My brother has First Communion coming up, and he hasn’t been Confirmed yet.

 

[MyzTek]

This may be true for converts, however for those raised in the Church, First Communion comes before Confirmation. My brother has First Communion coming up, and he hasn’t been Confirmed yet.

Thanks for pointing this out, I’m a convert and thought it was the same for cradle-Catholics.

peace,
Ray

 

[dianaiad]

In the Catholic Church we define a “sacrament” as an outward sign of an inward reality. In other words in the sacrament of Baptism water signifies life, cleansing, dying (in the case of full submersion) and rising (coming out of the water). Through the sacrament, the Holy Spirit actually accomplishes that which is signified by the outward action. Annointing with oil (Confirmation, Last Rites, Baptism, Holy Orders) signifies both healing and strengthening and we believe that it is exactly what is accomplished.

My question is how does the LDS Church define a sacrament and what is a “sacrament meeting”?

Thanks.

When we refer to ‘the Sacrament’ we mean only one; what you would call ‘communion.’ We call ‘Sacrament Meeting’ that because the entire purpose of it is for the partaking of 'The Sacrament," or communion. We call the other things that you refer to as ‘sacraments’ as ‘ordinances.’

As to how we do it, members of the priesthood…priests, actually…will tear slices of bread into small pieces and put those pieces on trays. They will poor water into small paper cups that are in different trays. They will then 'bless and sanctify" the bread and water that the have prepared, using one of the very few memorized prayers we have (come to think of it, those may be the only memorized and scripted prayers we have…) and other members of the priesthood will pass the broken bread and water to the congregation where they sit. Members of the congregation will then either eat the bread and drink the water, or they will quietly pass the trays to the next person without partaking.

This is done almost immediately…at the beginning of the meeting, right after an opening prayer, an opening hymn and any immediate church business (like blessing babies…). After we partake of the Sacrament, we then have members of the congregation, who have been previously assigned/asked to do so, speak. We’ll have two or three ‘youth’ speakers (under 19) and a couple of adult speakers. Somewhere in the middle we will have a ‘rest’ hymn. After the last speaker we will have a closing song and a prayer.

That is how Sacrament meeting goes.

 

[dianaiad]

She does it by provoking the Catholics in the first place.

You imply that the Mormons here are insulted and don’t insult first or back.

How very self righteous.

That, answersplease, is untrue.

In fact, in the year I have been here you will not be able to find a single instance of me 'provoking Catholics in the first place."

Not even one.

I am STRICTLY a reactionary.

 

[MyzTek]

When we refer to ‘the Sacrament’ we mean only one; what you would call ‘communion.’ We call ‘Sacrament Meeting’ that because the entire purpose of it is for the partaking of 'The Sacrament," or communion. We call the other things that you refer to as ‘sacraments’ as ‘ordinances.’

As to how we do it, members of the priesthood…priests, actually…will tear slices of bread into small pieces and put those pieces on trays. They will poor water into small paper cups that are in different trays. They will then 'bless and sanctify" the bread and water that the have prepared, using one of the very few memorized prayers we have (come to think of it, those may be the only memorized and scripted prayers we have…) and other members of the priesthood will pass the broken bread and water to the congregation where they sit. Members of the congregation will then either eat the bread and drink the water, or they will quietly pass the trays to the next person without partaking.

This is done almost immediately…at the beginning of the meeting, right after an opening prayer, an opening hymn and any immediate church business (like blessing babies…). After we partake of the Sacrament, we then have members of the congregation, who have been previously assigned/asked to do so, speak. We’ll have two or three ‘youth’ speakers (under 19) and a couple of adult speakers. Somewhere in the middle we will have a ‘rest’ hymn. After the last speaker we will have a closing song and a prayer.

That is how Sacrament meeting goes.

This describes exactly what I saw when I was attending Sunday meetings at the local Mormon Research Institute (a stake comprised mostly of college age people). Thanks for the clear description!

peace

 

[dianaiad]

I agree. LDS temples are dedicated as a “House of the Lord”, where they go to be in a special presence of God and make special covenants with Him. Catholics believe that Catholic parishes are also Houses of the Lord, where Jesus Christ has a special, physical presence in the Eucharist.

While I believe that both you and Marie have a point about emphasizing the sacred nature of the Eucharist to Catholics, and comparing it to Temple attendence for us, I think that it is incorrect to place the LDS Sacrament on the level of 'blessing [yourselves] with holy water," or indeed as any lesser event. For us the Sacrament is incredibly important…we have the most important church meeting we go to based around it! For us it is a renewal of our baptismal covenants; when partaken of worthily, it is as effective at washing away sin as the original baptism is, and certainly as effective as you believe that confession + communion is.

 

[dianaiad]

I also would agree with this. Several years ago when I was studying with the Mormon elders in my home a couple of times a week, and attending their testimony and sacrament meetings, the elders encouraged me to take the bread and water with them. This led to a little confusion when the following week we came to the scripture in I Corinthians 11 which says:

After talking with the Stake President, the elders told me it was OK and not to worry about it, but that I should not feel uncomfortable about not taking the bread and water if I wasn’t comfortable doing so; nobody would be offended.

To me this puts the Mormon view of the sacrament more in line with some protestant denominations’, as in Catholicism you should not receive at all until after confirmation. Likewise, in Mormonism one cannot participate in the Temples without a recommend.

The missionaries who encouraged you to take the bread and water with them were wrong. The rules are rather clear in this matter; if you haven’t been baptized, you don’t partake of the Sacrament. The exception would be small children who, since they are sinless anyway, can’t be ‘unworthy’ of doing so—and there is some controversy about that, even.