LDS and Catholic Differences

[Rv_Cain_Spencer]

Now if I said something like that about the pope, how would you feel?

And everyone would be all over me.

I wouldn’t attack you for it. So come on, talk to me. I think you would be surprised to hear that even most Catholic Priest say terrible things about the Pope and the Vatican council.

Joseph Smith said alot of things didn’t he?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Now if I said something like that about the pope, how would you feel?

And everyone would be all over me.

mfbukowski, you said people let evil in, now when I say I agree with you, you bring out the hurt feelers. :bighanky:

But, to your question. I would think it would be a good discussion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Joseph Smith exerted all his power to call upon God to deliver him from that force of evil that had tried to overcome his desire to find out truths from God. He did not “let it in”–he exerted his bodily effort and his mind and his spirit and all his strength. Satan could tell the sincerity of his prayer and the sincerity of his faith, and that there was going to be change in the world if this young lad received an answer from God. He did receive an answer, and it has changed the current world (or at least a small part of the world, and a large part of the spirit world).

Or, Satan changed tactics.

 

[RebeccaJ]

To us, it is a beautiful song. It is also a prayer, as the best songs are.

I’m glad you think so. I do too.

Still, makes me wonder how this written prayer reconciles to the LDS idea of not using written prayers.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m glad you think so. I do too.

Still, makes me wonder how this written prayer reconciles to the LDS idea of not using written prayers.

I was still waiting to see if anyone was going to address my post stating, Christ prayed the selfsame words in the garden, 3 times, He taught us to pray the Lord’s prayer and those in heaven, not resting day or night while repeating the same words.

While the discussion was on that topic, my posts were completely ‘overlooked’.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I was still waiting to see if anyone was going to address my post stating, Christ prayed the selfsame words in the garden, 3 times, He taught us to pray the Lord’s prayer and those in heaven, not resting day or night while repeating the same words.

While the discussion was on that topic, my posts were completely ‘overlooked’.

I think LDS have a view that using memorized or written prayers preclude or replace a prayer from the heart, and so are nothing but “vain repetitions”. Where, Catholics see them both as prayers from the heart. Or at least, I do.

Canticle of Brother Sun

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord,
All praise is Yours, all glory, honor and blessings.
To you alone, Most High, do they belong;
no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name. ** We praise You, Lord, for all Your creatures,
especially for Brother Sun,
who is the day through whom You give us light.
And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendor,
of You Most High, he bears your likeness.**
We praise You, Lord, for Sister Moon and the stars,
in the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.
We praise You, Lord, for Brothers Wind and Air,
fair and stormy, all weather’s moods,
by which You cherish all that You have made.
We praise You, Lord, for Sister Water,
so useful, humble, precious and pure.
We praise You, Lord, for Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night.
He is beautiful, playful, robust, and strong.
We praise You, Lord, for Sister Earth,
who sustains us
with her fruits, colored flowers, and herbs.
We praise You, Lord, for those who pardon,
for love of You bear sickness and trial.
Blessed are those who endure in peace,
by You Most High, they will be crowned.
We praise You, Lord, for Sister Death,
from whom no-one living can escape.
Woe to those who die in their sins!
Blessed are those that She finds doing Your Will.
No second death can do them harm. **
We praise and bless You, Lord, and give You thanks,
and serve You in all humility.**
_______________________________________________
(In Jesus’ Name, Amen.)

 

[aspirant]

I think LDS have a view that using memorized or written prayers preclude or replace a prayer from the heart, and so are nothing but “vain repetitions”. Where, Catholics see them both as prayers from the heart.

Yes. The truth is, even extemporaneous prayer can be totally devoid of attention, faith, and love, while a prayer oft-repeated becomes like new each time it is made with sincere faith and love.

A woman in love is not offended when her lover dedicates a song to her, even if it was written by someone else. She does not reply, “‘Angel Eyes’ is Jeff Healey’s words to another woman! This has nothing to do with us!” And a lover never says “because you said you loved me before, you cannot mean it now.” A true lover always delights in sincere expressions of love, whether the words have been used only once or a million times. I know a man who has given his wife the exact same Valentine’s Day card every year for forty-four years. She never resents receiving the same card-- its words become more and more dear to her with every passing year.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes. The truth is, even extemporaneous prayer can be totally devoid of attention, faith, and love, while a prayer oft-repeated becomes like new each time it is made with sincere faith and love.

A woman in love is not offended when her lover dedicates a song to her, even if it was written by someone else. She does not reply, “‘Angel Eyes’ is Jeff Healey’s words to another woman! This has nothing to do with us!” And a lover never says “because you said you loved me before, you cannot mean it now.” A true lover always delights in sincere expressions of love, whether the words have been used only once or a million times. I know a man who has given his wife the exact same Valentine’s Day card every year for forty-four years. She never resents receiving the same card-- its words become more and more dear to her with every passing year.

Reminds me of St. John of the Cross.

 

[sablouwho]

Yes. The truth is, even extemporaneous prayer can be totally devoid of attention, faith, and love, while a prayer oft-repeated becomes like new each time it is made with sincere faith and love.

I am a good example of this. Despite going to Hebrew school as a kid, prayer was not something that I did on my own–I only did it when I was in a synagogue service. (I didn’t believe in God and prayer wasn’t encouraged at home–I don’t think my parents believed either.)

So for me, I find written/memorized prayers very helpful. Interestingly, when I use written prayers, I often make an extemporaneous prayer right afterwards. And I find in such cases that my non-scripted prayer is much better than if I had not used written prayers before hand. One inspires the other, I find.

That said, I have been quite impressed that some people seem to have a real gift for extemporaneous prayer. I’ve definitely noticed that among my LDS friends–I am sure practice helps!

 

[aspirant]

One inspires the other, I find.

The same is true in my experience!

 

[RebeccaJ]

That said, I have been quite impressed that some people seem to have a real gift for extemporaneous prayer. I’ve definitely noticed that among my LDS friends–I am sure practice helps!

While an atheist, I was with a group of LDS around a conference table, for a business meeting, when someone said, “let’s pray”. I looked around thinking, what? Where, they all proceeded to kneel around the conference table, the guy heading our discussion looked at me and said, “Rebecca, would you like to lead us in prayer?” I hadn’t prayed one word for years, but I remembered the Mormon formula for praying, and pulled it off. Obviously, what I said in that “prayer” had no meaning to me whatsoever, other than, getting through it.

I told a friend about it later, who also knew some of the people in my meeting. She said they told her I did fine. phew!

 

[AMDGtoo]

I told a friend about it later, who also knew some of the people in my meeting. She said they told her I did fine. phew!

Yes, I’ve noticed that the LDS seem to think more of “appearances”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, I’ve noticed that the LDS seem to think more of “appearances”.

Well, that is all I was worried about!

I only relate that experience because in the “faith promoting” story world of LDS, one of them is that a convert from a religion that used written and memorized prayers felt they were empty prayers, and the off-the-cuff prayers of Mormonism did not feel this way to the convert. So, that was a good reason to get baptized as a Mormon.

It can work both ways. Prayer, not being a formula or a memorization, but a relationship with God. Any person can view any type of prayer as “empty”, while at the same time, others around them can perceive a prayer is from the heart. LDS are taught that written or memorized prayers are not from the heart. But really, how can they know this?

I don’t know that LDS think more of appearances. But they do put more of an emphasis on appearances than Catholics do.

 

[mfbukowski]

That is totally fallacious.

Why don’t you answer the subject and defend Joseph Smith and Mormonism on their own merits, instead of trying to divert the subject back to Catholicism or the Pope?

You said evil spirits couldn’t harm Mormons unless they let them in.

And so the fact that Joseph Smith claimed he was attacked by an evil spirit, by your own reasoning shows that he let the evil spirit in

I didn’t answer the post because I thought you were joking!

Obviously Joseph did not “let in” evil- he conquered it through prayer- the shaft of light appeared and so did the Father and the Son.

You have been watching too many Vincent Price movies. I hope the vampires don’t get you.

 

[mfbukowski]

I was still waiting to see if anyone was going to address my post stating, Christ prayed the selfsame words in the garden, 3 times, He taught us to pray the Lord’s prayer and those in heaven, not resting day or night while repeating the same words.

While the discussion was on that topic, my posts were completely ‘overlooked’.

The Lord’s prayer is a FORMULA for prayer.

Start by addressing the father

Thank him for our lives and what we have

Ask for what you need

Close in his name.

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Does that make you feel like I am sincere?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Lord’s prayer is a FORMULA for prayer.

Start by addressing the father

Thank him for our lives and what we have

Ask for what you need

Close in his name.

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Thank you for your post

Does that make you feel like I am sincere?

And Christ prayed a third time with the selfsame words. Was He not sincere?

Are those in heaven who repeat the same thing over and over without resting day or night not really singing the praises of God?

 

[mfbukowski]

I think LDS have a view that using memorized or written prayers preclude or replace a prayer from the heart, and so are nothing but “vain repetitions”. Where, Catholics see them both as prayers from the heart. Or at least, I do.

Canticle of Brother Sun

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord,
All praise is Yours, all glory, honor and blessings.
To you alone, Most High, do they belong;
no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name. ** We praise You, Lord, for all Your creatures,
especially for Brother Sun,
who is the day through whom You give us light.
And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendor,
of You Most High, he bears your likeness.**
We praise You, Lord, for Sister Moon and the stars,
in the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.
We praise You, Lord, for Brothers Wind and Air,
fair and stormy, all weather’s moods,
by which You cherish all that You have made.
We praise You, Lord, for Sister Water,
so useful, humble, precious and pure.
We praise You, Lord, for Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night.
He is beautiful, playful, robust, and strong.
We praise You, Lord, for Sister Earth,
who sustains us
with her fruits, colored flowers, and herbs.
We praise You, Lord, for those who pardon,
for love of You bear sickness and trial.
Blessed are those who endure in peace,
by You Most High, they will be crowned.
We praise You, Lord, for Sister Death,
from whom no-one living can escape.
Woe to those who die in their sins!
Blessed are those that She finds doing Your Will.
No second death can do them harm. **
We praise and bless You, Lord, and give You thanks,
and serve You in all humility.**
_______________________________________________
(In Jesus’ Name, Amen.)

Just beautiful! No question, I love it.

But it’s not from me, it’s not my words. I wish I could think of things that way, but it’s not from me.

I find that when I pray, I am mostly saying “HELP”!

 

[sablouwho]

The Lord’s prayer is a FORMULA for prayer. Start by addressing the father. Thank him for our lives and what we have. Ask for what you need.
Close in his name.

Yes, it is a formula for prayer. But it doesn’t only have to be a formula. It doesn’t have to be an “either/or” situation. Instead, I see it as a “both/and”. IOW, is it both a formula for how to organize extemporaneous prayers as well as a prayer in itself.

Thank you for your post

Does that make you feel like I am sincere?

I realize that you didn’t address this to me, so I hope you don’t mind my reply. I do see that you are trying to make a point about repetition, but in your own repeating of “thank you”, you don’t seem sincere. And I think that has to do with lack of intent–I don’t think you were trying to be sincere, but rather, were simply trying to make a point.

Seems to me that either written prayers AND extemporaneous ones can BOTH be sincere, or insincere, depending on the heart of the person saying the prayer.

If you don’t care for written or formulaic prayers, I think that’s fine. But it doesn’t mean that others don’t find them useful or deeply meaningful.

 

[aspirant]

The Lord’s prayer is a FORMULA for prayer.

Jesus says in Matthew 6: “thus then be praying: our Father in the heavens, let your name be hallowed…’”

And in Luke 11, Jesus says: “whenever you may be praying, be saying: our Father in the heavens, let your name be hallowed…”

He doesn’t just say “this is a good outline for prayers you make up on your own,” though I think it is also useful for this purpose. He says “be saying this.”

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using the words Jesus gave us to pray, so long as we pray with attention, faith, and love.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I find that when I pray, I am mostly saying “HELP”!

**
Midnight Praises**