LDS and Catholic Differences

[mfbukowski]

mfbukowski,

Thanks,

do you consider confession as an ordinance? I understand, that in general, LDS practice confessing to another *only *in rare occasions

This almost could have come from a Catholic Confession Guide

-kc

Confession is not an ordinance but is part of the repentance process. It is not an ordinance because we don’t give “absolution” the way Catholics do, we think that can come only from God.

One confesses to the individual who has been wronged- in cases of marital fidelity, the offended spouse, in cases of theft, the person who was robbed, etc.

It is part of the restitution process, which is also a requirement. In cases where restitution cannot be made, one does one’s best anyway.

On personal issues which offended no other person but which were sinful, one confesses to God and does one’s best to repent

In serious cases like adultery, fornication, or something more serious involving the law for example, one’s membership in the church could be in jeopardy, and in such cases one must confess to the bishop who is ordained as a “judge”. The bishop will help the member decide how best to repent and do what is necessary to get back to church standards. If one does not want to live by church standards, there is no reason for them to be in the church. Remember also, in contrast to Catholicism, every member is to some degree a “minister” either teaching classes to children or helping out others in some way, so it is important that these “lay ministers” keep church standards, or others could be harmed. Mormons really have no notion of “laity”, because everyone is eligible for a “calling”- a ministerial position.

In very serious cases, a member could be excommunicated if other members spirituality is endangered by their actions, or if they have committed a serious sin and have no interest in repenting.

Important also in this idea is the fact that one is not baptized until one is (presumably) old enough to understand that they are making agreements to keep the commandments – so even joining the church as a child implies an agreement to abide by its standards.

Obviously 8 year old children must be taught this, and the bishop interviews them before baptism to make sure they understand that they are agreeing to “be good and keep the commandments” to their level of understanding.

 

[mfbukowski]

Do you not see that the third heaven is an expression that refers to the ‘Heaven’ beyond the clouds and beyond the stars, where God dwells in an allegorical sense. It’s not science. It certainly is in no way support for the LDS doctrine of heaven.

Peace,
Robert

That is your opinion. Can’t YOU see that it is? I think Paul believed in the celestial kingdom and that is what he was teaching in the fragments of his writings which have survived in the bible. We only have snippets of the full teachings in the bible, and I think that passage is evidence of his belief.

 

[TheosisM]

. For all the anti-Catholicism at CARM at least we agree on who God is and there isn’t the disrespect there for God.

Except of course when the Eucharist is the topic of discussion there.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Except of course when the Eucharist is the topic of discussion there.

True that.

 

[aspirant]

we don’t give “absolution” the way Catholics do, we think that can come only from God.

We agree that absolution comes only from God. He acts through ministers he ordains.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

That is your opinion. Can’t YOU see that it is? I think Paul believed in the celestial kingdom and that is what he was teaching in the fragments of his writings which have survived in the bible. We only have snippets of the full teachings in the bible, and I think that passage is evidence of his belief.

Your belief is nothing but wishfull thinking. My “opinion” is based on history, Tradition, and sound scriptural interpretation. Can you point to any ancient Christians text that teaches the LDS version of Celestial heaven?

 

[ParkerD]

Your belief is nothing but wishfull thinking. My “opinion” is based on history, Tradition, and sound scriptural interpretation. Can you point to any ancient Christians text that teaches the LDS version of Celestial heaven?

Robert in SD,
I can. The LDS version of Celestial heaven (though the name is not there and is really just a descriptive term anyway, the description is) is the version described by John in the book of Revelation for “joint heirs” with the Only Begotten Son of God, whose throne becomes a joint throne through His power and grace.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That is describing Heaven, period.

 

[aspirant]

All people who are in Christ, without exception, are joint heirs with Christ.

 

[TheosisM]

Which definitely shakes the Eucharist/Temple analogy at least on a doctrinal level.

two days later, I just understood what you were saying (I was watching a video on a related subject that reminded me of this).

 

[mfbukowski]

two days later, I just understood what you were saying (I was watching a video on a related subject that reminded me of this).

Yeah, it usually takes me that long to figure out what I am saying too…

 

[PaulDupre]

All people who are in Christ, without exception, are joint heirs with Christ.

It says that we inherit all that the Father HAS, not all that the Father IS.

Huge difference.

 

[Stephen168]

Hebrews 7, speaking of the Melchizedek priesthood:

This is no such thing. You will not find “Melchizedek Priesthood” in scripture.

15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek

 

[AMDGtoo]

This is no such thing. You will not find “Melchizedek Priesthood” in scripture.

Jesus, our High Priest, seems to be the only one who qualifies as to the likeness–since He alone has neither father or mother, is without end or beginning and offers sacrifice for His people eternally.

 

[ParkerD]

Jesus, our High Priest, seems to be the only one who qualifies as to the likeness–since He alone has neither father or mother, is without end or beginning and offers sacrifice for His people eternally.

AMDGtoo,
This is an interesting observation, since the LDS belief includes that the Melchizedek priesthood has been given that name “out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name,” but in reality the high priesthood that includes the office of “high priest” is known to be the “Holy Priesthood, after the Order of the Son of God”. (See Doctrine and Covenants 107:3-4)

 

[Stephen168]

Jesus, our High Priest, seems to be the only one who qualifies as to the likeness–since He alone has neither father or mother, is without end or beginning and offers sacrifice for His people eternally.

Yes, first there was Melchisedech (Genesis 14:18-20), then King David said a priest would come like Melchisedech (Psalm 110:4). Jeremiah 31:31-34 tells us a new convent will be made, and then St. Paul puts it all together for us in Hebrews Chapters 4-9. As you point out, Christ is the only one who qualifies; and there was never a Melchisedech Priesthood, only a priest like Melchisedech; Jesus Christ.

The Mormon “Melchizedek Priesthood” is a fabrication of Joseph Smith. I do see how someone with a background in freemasonry would think that the phrase “order of” would indicate some kind of club or organization and run with it.

 

[Janet1983]

This is no such thing. You will not find “Melchizedek Priesthood” in scripture.

Well the thing is that whether or not you will find in Scripture is not the ppoint. The problem is how the LDS church twists Scripture to their liking because they say it was not translated right. You can use the same Christian vocabulary and mean something completely differen… ah and by the way:

Genesis 14:18-20 (King James Version)

18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

This one should be rather familiar for most Catholics:

Psalm 110:4 (King James Version)

The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

“ Tu es sacerdos in aeternum secundum ordinem Melchisedech ”.

As mentioned already in here:

Hebrews 7:1 (King James Version)

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

Even though Psalm 110 could be twisted in this way, how can we justify a regular human being being called to be priest after the order of Melchizedeck? That is just ridiculous, when you look at the whole Psalm… God has consecrated Christ, priest by an oath, and that this was done for our sakes, no created human being that could obtain this priesthood… just look at the text. It would take a tremendous amount of arrogance and pride to even think of having this point at oneself:

Psalm 110 (King James Version)

1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

He is also mentioned in the first eucharistic prayer if I remember right…

 

[Matariel]

It doesn’t matter either way; Mormon priests do not have apostolic succession like the Catholic priesthood or any traceable relationship with the Apostles.Mormonism came almost 1800-1900 years after Christ established a Church that the gates of death would not prevail against.

Besides all this, no archeological evidence even backs up the claims of an Israelite civilization in the Americas, such as the one the Book of Mormon presents. Or, where are the Golden Plates now, or the Urim and the Thummin? I’ve never gotten any satisfactory answers from Mormons on these points.

 

[Prague]

There is a much simpler explanation of the “third heaven” in 2 Cor 12:2. Ancient Semitics viewed the heavens (the sky) as being three-fold (as we do today)::

1. The heavens where the clouds float and the birds fly (the atmosphere).
2. The heavens beyond that, where the sun and the stars travel (space).
3. The heavens where God lives, which is beyond the sun, moon and stars (heaven).

So Saint Paul was saying that the man having the vision was caught up to the place where God dwells - the third heaven.

It has nothing to do with different levels of Heaven, no matter what the Muslims and the Mormons teach.

Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)

Thanks Paul, I knew that. Just wanted to see what they would say. Enjoy reading your information.

 

[Jerry_Parker]

Prague,

Just a break from all that dreary L.D.S. Mormon stuff about multiple heavens.

I love that monicker of yours and the image of the Infant of Prague at the bottom of your messages. One can tell rather positively if a parish church is traditional Catholic (in the larger sense, not just the liturgical one) if the Infant of Prague statue still stands in it! (It does in the sole local English-speaking Catholic parish here.)

I was talking with a friend of mine about the Infant of Prague and he mentioned that his family (or his girl friend’s, I forget which) for many years had a sweet and considerably overdressed statue of the Infant of Prague in the living room on a small table in the living room just for it. I asked him what became of it. When he replied, “The dog ate it”, I burst out laughing and we both ended up rolling around the rug in gleeful hilarity for several minutes.

Of course, neither of us thought that such was a proper fate for this image of our Lord!

Pax, Jerry Parker