LDS and JW's

[ricko]

Some more things to consider about the good ole KJV

There are two major problems with the King James Version. First of all, when it was translated in 1611, there were relatively few Hebrew and Greek manuscripts available and they tended to be recent and less accurate. In the nearly 400 years since then literally thousands more manuscripts have been discovered, ranging from small portions to complete copies of the Old or New Testaments. Many of these are very early and more accurate.

Secondly, the English in the King James Version is not at all the same language spoken today. Both the vocabulary and grammar have changed considerably. As a result, a reader often must retranslate the King James into modern English in his or her mind. For many people, especially children, reading the King James Version is like reading a foreign language.

 

[dj_dave]

God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord

.”
and Acts 13:23. From the offspring of this [man] according to his promise God has brought to Israel a savior, Jesus,

At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh•shi′a‛, rendered “savior” used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel
If a certain title or descriptive phrase is found in more than one location in the Scriptures, it should never hastily be concluded that it must always refer to the same person.
…nuf said

**INTERESTING QUOTE **“In the above verses LORD is a translation of Jehovah”.

Then why on earth don’t YOU use HIS name if LORD ‘is a translation of JEHOVAH?

Even in the KVJ it says “
18That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Is it possible that some how (Jeremiah 23:27) 27 “They are thinking of making my people forget my name by means of their dreams that they keep relating each one to the other, just as their fathers forgot my name by means of Ba′al”. has come into play?

Remember (Judges 3:7) “So the sons of Israel did what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, and they were forgetful of Jehovah their God and went serving the Ba′als and the sacred poles”.

WHY not use his Name here?

(Ezekiel 38:19-23) . . .And in my ardor, in the fire of my fury, I shall have to speak. … And I will bring myself into judgment with him, with pestilence and with blood; and a flooding downpour and hailstones, fire and sulphur I shall rain down upon him and upon his bands and upon the many peoples that will be with him. 23 And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.’

Or here:

(Isaiah 42:8) “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.

The importance of GOD"S NAME.

(Psalm 91:14) “Because on me he has set his affection, I shall also provide him with escape. I shall protect him because he has come to know my name”.

ALSO HERE in John 17:1-26 is Jesus’ final prayer in the hearing ears of his disciples the setting is known as “the Last Supper” Judas has just been dismissed Jesus knows he is about to be betrayed…CAN you imagine how Precious and important this prayer is?

It contains very important information for all of his followers. (ATTENTION ALL CATHOLICS …It also contains the only expression “Holy Father” in the entire Bible…think about that)

Please notice **John 17:3 ** “5 According to John 17:3, Jesus said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”

Now please notice THIS…“(John 17:4) 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. He hadn’t died yet, how could his work be finished? What work?

(John 17:6-7) 6 John 17:6 (King James Version)
6I *have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. *

**NOW notice the final verse in this prayer **“(John 17:25-26) . . … 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

KJV
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them

Did you all see the importance of how God’s Name unifies us with his LOVE and his Son’s LOVE? It is the **necessary ingredient **
Continue…

 

[dj_dave]

KJV
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them

Did you all see the importance of how God’s Name unifies us with his LOVE and his Son’s LOVE? It is the **necessary ingredient **
Continue…

FRIENDS
A man once said that “if a mailman stopped and kicked at every little dog that barked at him, he would never get the mail delivered”

After much thought and prayer, I have realized that these posts are simply taking me away from all of my ‘door to door’ and disciple making work.

Moreover, I can say this…then you can say that. I can quote this; you can quote that-- the last thing I want to any of us to be guilty of what Paul spoke about in

(1 Timothy 6:4-8) 4 he is puffed up [with pride], not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words. From these things spring envy, strife, abusive speeches, wicked suspicions, 5 violent disputes about trifles on the part of men corrupted in mind and despoiled of the truth, …“

Don’t you agree?

Therefore I have decided to make one more post and then I must leave. Only time will tell if one of us are actually the organization that Jehovah is using to accomplish and fulfill his prophecy:
(Matthew 24:14) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.—(not the end of the world …but the end of suffering and wickedness. (Ps 37:10, 11, 29; Isa. 35)

For all of those that would like to know what JEHOVAH”S WITNESSES REALLY BELIEVE AND WHY–Wait!

QUESTION—If you each had a chance to read a book called “Why You Shouldn’t Listen To Jehovah’s Witnesses” and another book called “Why You Should Listen To Jehovah’s Witnesses”

Which would you read first? Compare:

(Deuteronomy 30:19-20) . . .I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against YOU today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell upon the ground that Jehovah swore to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to give to them.”

The following links will furnish complete and perhaps surprising answers.
True, there are thousands of links about Jehovah’s Witnesses that tend to try and prove us wrong… but don’t forget Jesus’ words as to one reason why:

“(John 15:18-21). . .* If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. 19 If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU. 20 Bear in mind the word I said to YOU, A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute YOU also; if they have observed my word, they will observe YOURS also. 21 But they will do all these things against YOU on account of my name, because they do not know him that sent me./I]

As I said: The following links will furnish complete and perhaps surprising answers.

Links: (DON’T FORGET TO CLICK ON THE LINKS WITHIN EACH PAGE)
www.watchtower.org
web.archive.org/web/20031207094230/hector3000.future.easyspace.com/index.htm
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/1975.htm
VERY important! users.picknowl.com.au/~hepburn/prophecy.htm
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/spirit.htm
jehovah.to/xlation/ar.html
jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html
jehovah.to/xlation/index.html
jehovah.to/xlation/mi.html
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/index.htm
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/50questions.htm
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/emendations.htm
geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5257/4holyspi1.htm#CHAPTER%206
religionstinks.xanga.com/669573192/item/
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/egweimi.htm
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/trinity2.htm
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/tim.htm

WELL as I said I will have ONE more post then disappear for a while.

The main reason I started studying with the JW’s is because of their explanation of Why
A God of love would allow such terrible things to happen. Child Prostitution in the slave trade, drug cartels; suicide bombers; wife abuse; child abuse; Gang violence; hunger; and everything else on this earth that brings no glory to it’s Creator. My final post will attempt to show you a Surprising answer for those that want to know. (Acts 28:22) But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.”*

 

[zerinus]

Thank you Dave for your replies; and I especially commend you for your willingness to discuss the various aspects of your religion with me.

With regard to the use of the word “Jehovah,” we don’t have anything against using that word or name. In fact it is used in modern LDS scripture several times. Here are some examples:

2 Nephi 22:

2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid; for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also has become my salvation.

Moroni 10:

34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

D&C 109:

42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood.

D&C 110:

3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying.

Abraham 1:

16 And his voice was unto me: Abraham, Abraham, behold, my name is Jehovah, and I have heard thee, and have come down to deliver thee, and to take thee away from thy father’s house, and from all thy kinsfolk, into a strange land which thou knowest not of.

Abraham 2:

8 My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee.

In the KJV, as far as I know, the substitution of “Lord” for “Jehovah” was done in deference to the Jewish sensitivities who regard that name particularly sacred, and so don’t want to pronounce it. KJV uses LORD (small caps) to render Jehovah; so everybody knows when they come across that word that it means Jehovah. I don’t think that is such a big deal. I don’t think that God is going to take offence because some people out of reverence to His name don’t want to pronounce it, but prefer to use an honorific title like Lord instead. I think that that is a big fuss over nothing.

As regards violent crimes and other evils that are prevalent in the world, I agree that that is deplorable; but how does being a JW alter that fact, or alleviate the situation any better? You are going to have to face that problem whether you are a JW or of any other religion; and I am not sure that JWs have a way of dealing with that problem that is superior to that of any other religion. I don’t see how being a JW helps you with that problem better than being a Catholic, or anything else.

I have a question for you now: Why does your religion want to keep you in the dark, especially about other religions? My religion doesn’t tell me not to read JW literature, or Catholic literature, or any other. On the contrary, my religions tells me to study and learn about other churches, religions, and cultures. My Church has no objection to my reading the Watchtower magazine. But your religion tells you not to read Mormon literature, or Catholic literature, etc. Why is that, if they have nothing to hide? What are they afraid of? I would become suspicious if Mormonism placed such restrictions on me.

 

[dj_dave]

*WELL as I said I will have ONE more post then disappear for a while.

The main reason I started studying with the JW’s is because of their explanation of Why
A God of love would allow such terrible things to happen. Child Prostitution in the slave trade, drug cartels; suicide bombers; wife abuse; child abuse; Gang violence; hunger; and everything else on this earth that brings no glory to it’s Creator. *

END QUOTE

MY final post: I believe this explaination cannot be explained better by anybody as the WHY a God of Love would permit wickedness for so long.

Think about this…(Proverbs 15:3) The eyes of Jehovah are in every place, keeping watch upon the bad ones and the good ones.…Why? what is he watching for?

His future purpose is stated at

(Psalm 37:10-11) “And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace”.(Psalm 37:29) “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it”.

So WHAT is he waiting for? the answer is (Matthew 24:14) “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come”

So meanwile, drunk drivers hit little children, adults molest little children, abortions grow in numbers; and many of the things listed above as well as
(2 Timothy 3:1-17) “But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power”

BUT is there something more? The following information comes from one of our many books “Life—How Did It Get Here? By Evolution or by Creation”?

Chapter 16
Why Would God Permit Suffering? Please for the love of God read this. (I have also added my extra NOTES)

A COMMON reason many people give for doubting the existence of a Creator is the prevalence of suffering in the world. Throughout the centuries there has been so much cruelty, bloodshed and outright evil, bringing great suffering to millions of innocent people. Thus many ask: ‘If there is a God, why does he permit all of this?’ Since, as we have seen, the Bible’s account best fits the facts about creation, can the Bible also help us to understand why a powerful Creator would permit so much suffering for such a long time?

2 The opening chapters of Genesis provide the background for answering this question. They describe the creation of a world without suffering. The first man and woman were put in a paradise setting, a beautiful gardenlike home called Eden, and they were given pleasant and challenging work. Regarding the earth, they were told “to cultivate it and to take care of it.” They also had supervision of “the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”—Genesis 1:28; 2:15.

3 In addition, since the first humans were created with perfect bodies and perfect minds, they were not defective in any way. Hence, there was no reason for them ever to suffer from sickness, old age or death. Instead, they had the prospect of an endless future in an earthly paradise.—Deuteronomy 32:4.

(NOTE: “perfect bodies and perfect minds” does not mean that they could fly or breath underwater–they were perfect for what they were told to do "*28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” *

Remenber Adam lived for 930 years Gen 5:5 Compare (Genesis 8:13)

back to the article…

4 The first pair were also told to “be fruitful and become many and fill the earth.” As they would bear children, the human family would increase and extend the boundaries of the Paradise so that it would eventually encompass the entire earth. Thus, the human race would be a united family, all living in perfect health on a paradise earth.
The Need to Accept God’s Rule

5 However, for this harmony to continue, the first human pair had to accept their Creator’s right to govern human affairs. That is, they had to accept his sovereignty. Why? First of all, because it was proper. The maker of anything surely has a right to exercise a measure of control over what he has made. This principle has been reflected in ownership laws for centuries. In addition, humans needed to accept the direction of their Maker because of this crucial fact: **They were not designed with the ability to govern themselves successfully apart from their Creator, any more than they could stay alive if they did not eat, drink and breathe. **History has proved the Bible correct in saying: *]“To earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” *(Jeremiah 10:23) As long as humans stayed within the guidelines set for them by their Creator, life would be continuous, successful and happy.

NOTE: no need to pray for a “Kingdom to come”
continued

 

[dj_dave]

History has proved the Bible correct in saying: *]“To earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” *(Jeremiah 10:23) As long as humans stayed within the guidelines set for them by their Creator, life would be continuous, successful and happy.

NOTE: no need to pray for a “Kingdom to come”
continued

END QUOTE

6 Also, humans were created to be free agents. They were not made to react like robots, or compelled to do certain things primarily out of instinct, as are animals or insects. But this freedom was to be relative, not absolute. It was to be exercised responsibly, within the boundaries of God’s laws, laws that worked for the common good. Note how the Bible sets out this principle: “*Be as free people, and yet holding your freedom, not as a excuse for badness, but as slaves of God.” *(1 Peter 2:16) Without law to govern human interrelations, there would be anarchy, and the lives of all persons would be affected adversely.

7 Thus, while relative freedom is desirable, too much freedom is not. **If you give a child too much freedom, it may lead to his playing on a busy street, or putting his hand on a hot stove. Total freedom to make all of our own decisions without considering our Maker’s direction can cause all kinds of problems. **That was the case with the first humans. They chose to misuse their gift of freedom. *They decided, wrongly, to grasp for independence from their Creator and thereby “be like God.” *They felt that they could determine for themselves what was right and what was wrong.—Genesis 3:5.

NOTE: Think about that…

When the first humans pulled away from their Creator’s direction, what happened to them is similar to what happens when you pull out the plug of an electric fan. As long as the fan is plugged into a power source, it runs. But when disconnected, it slows down and eventually comes to a dead stop.

That is what happened when Adam and Eve pulled away from their Creator, “the source of life.” (Psalm 36:9) Since they willfully chose a course of independence from their Maker, he let them learn the full meaning of their choice by leaving them on their own. As a Bible principle states: “If you leave [God] he will leave you.” (2 Chronicles 15:2)

(KEY POINT) Without their Creator’s sustaining power, a gradual breakdown of mind and body began. In time, they grew old and died.—Genesis 3:19; 5:5.

9 When Adam and Eve chose to be independent of their Maker, they fell from perfection. This was before they had any children. **As a result, when they later had children, these reflected what the parents had become—imperfect. **So the first humans became like a defective pattern. Everything produced from them was also defective. Hence, we are all born imperfect and inherit the disabilities of aging, sickness and death. This imperfection, along with separation from the Creator and his laws, opened the floodgates of human folly. Thus, mankind’s history has been filled with suffering, sorrow, sickness and death.—Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12.

Is this to say that wickedness originated entirely with humans? No, there is more to it. The creation of intelligent creatures was not limited to humans. Already God had created countless spirit creatures in the heavens. (Job 38:4,*7) They too were free agents and also had a choice in accepting their Creator’s direction.

One of those spirit creatures chose to dwell on a desire for independence. His ambition built up to such a degree that it moved him to challenge God’s authority. He told Adam’s wife, Eve, that they could break God’s law and yet, as he assured her, “You positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:4; James 1:13-15) His statements implied that they did not need their Creator in order for them to have continued life and happiness. In fact, he said that lawbreaking would actually improve matters for them, enabling them to be like God. Thus he called into question the validity of God’s laws and cast doubt on God’s way of governing them. Indeed, he cast doubt on their Creator’s very right to rule. For this misrepresentation he came to be called Satan, which means “resister,” and Devil, meaning “slanderer.” For the past 6,000 years this attitude of Satan has influenced mankind, advancing a policy of ‘rule or ruin.’—Luke 4:2-8; 1*John 5:19; Revelation 12:9.

11 But why did God not destroy these lawbreakers, both human and spirit, at the start? The answer lies in the fact that **profound issues **had been raised before all intelligent creation. One of the issues involved questions such as:
Would independence from God’s sovereignty ever bring lasting benefits?
Would God’s direction of people be better for them, or would man’s own direction be better?
Could humans successfully govern this world independent of their Creator?
In short, did humans really need God’s guidance?
These questions required answers that only the passing of time could supply.

NOTE: PLEASE ponder the ramifications of that Continued…

 

[zerinus]

MY final post: I believe this explaination cannot be explained better by anybody as the WHY a God of Love would permit wickedness for so long.

Thank you. I think, however, that Mormonism provides a better answer as to why God permits crime and wickedness in the world.

Think about this…(Proverbs 15:3) The eyes of Jehovah are in every place, keeping watch upon the bad ones and the good ones.…Why? what is he watching for?

His future purpose is stated at

(Psalm 37:10-11) “And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace”.(Psalm 37:29) “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it”.

So WHAT is he waiting for? the answer is (Matthew 24:14) “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come”

So meanwile, drunk drivers hit little children, adults molest little children, abortions grow in numbers; and many of the things listed above as well as
(2 Timothy 3:1-17) *“But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. *2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power”

Well, I don’t see JWs being unique in believing that. We also believe what is stated in those scriptures, as I am sure are most other Christians.

BUT is there something more? The following information comes from one of our many books “Life—How Did It Get Here? By Evolution or by Creation”?

Chapter 16
Why Would God Permit Suffering? Please for the love of God read this. (I have also added my extra NOTES)

A COMMON reason many people give for doubting the existence of a Creator is the prevalence of suffering in the world.

We don’t! I don’t think Catholics do either! So why are you telling us these things?

Throughout the centuries there has been so much cruelty, bloodshed and outright evil, bringing great suffering to millions of innocent people. Thus many ask: ‘If there is a God, why does he permit all of this?’ Since, as we have seen, the Bible’s account best fits the facts about creation, can the Bible also help us to understand why a powerful Creator would permit so much suffering for such a long time?

2 The opening chapters of Genesis provide the background for answering this question. They describe the creation of a world without suffering. The first man and woman were put in a paradise setting, a beautiful gardenlike home called Eden, and they were given pleasant and challenging work. Regarding the earth, they were told “to cultivate it and to take care of it.” They also had supervision of “the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”—Genesis 1:28; 2:15.

3 In addition, since the first humans were created with perfect bodies and perfect minds, they were not defective in any way. Hence, there was no reason for them ever to suffer from sickness, old age or death. Instead, they had the prospect of an endless future in an earthly paradise.—Deuteronomy 32:4.

(NOTE: “perfect bodies and perfect minds” does not mean that they could fly or breath underwater–they were perfect for what they were told to do "*28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” *

Remenber Adam lived for 930 years Gen 5:5 Compare (Genesis 8:13)

back to the article…

4 The first pair were also told to “be fruitful and become many and fill the earth.” As they would bear children, the human family would increase and extend the boundaries of the Paradise so that it would eventually encompass the entire earth. Thus, the human race would be a united family, all living in perfect health on a paradise earth.
The Need to Accept God’s Rule

5 However, for this harmony to continue, the first human pair had to accept their Creator’s right to govern human affairs. That is, they had to accept his sovereignty. Why? First of all, because it was proper. The maker of anything surely has a right to exercise a measure of control over what he has made. This principle has been reflected in ownership laws for centuries. In addition, humans needed to accept the direction of their Maker because of this crucial fact: **They were not designed with the ability to govern themselves successfully apart from their Creator, any more than they could stay alive if they did not eat, drink and breathe. History has proved the Bible correct in saying: *]“*To earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” (Jeremiah 10:23)

As long as humans stayed within the guidelines set for them by their Creator, life would be continuous, successful and happy.

NOTE: no need to pray for a “Kingdom to come”
continued

If I am understanding your message correctly, what you are saying is that the reason why there is suffering evil in the world is because human race have thrown off the sovereignty of God, and want to do their own thing rather than what God wants them to do. Well, I don’t know of any Christian who would not in principle agree with that. So what do the JWs have to offer me that is different and better than any other Christian religion?

 

[dj_dave]

[But why did God not destroy these lawbreakers, both human and spirit, at the start? The answer lies in the fact that **profound issues **had been raised before all intelligent creation. One of the issues involved questions such as:
Would independence from God’s sovereignty ever bring lasting benefits?
Would God’s direction of people be better for them, or would man’s own direction be better?
Could humans successfully govern this world independent of their Creator?
In short, did humans really need God’s guidance? God certainly knew the answer. But,
These questions required answers that only the passing of time could supply.NOTE: PLEASE ponder the ramifications of that

Continued…Thank you for those who are still reading, I realize I am asking a lot from you. But, I really think this will answer why WE take the stands we do on war; flag salute; ect

back to the article:

Why So Long?

12 However, why has God permitted so much time to go by before settling these matters—about 6,000 years now? Could they not have been settled satisfactorily long ago? Well, if God had intervened long ago, the charge could have been made that humans were not given enough time to develop a workable government and the necessary technology to bring peace and prosperity to all. So, in his wisdom, God knew that it would take time to settle the issues that had been raised. He allowed that time.
13 Throughout the centuries, all types of governments, all types of social systems and all types of economic systems have been tried. In addition, humans have had enough time to make many technological advances, including harnessing the atom and traveling to the moon. With what results? Has all of this brought about the kind of world that is a real blessing to the entire human family?

NOTE: How many types of governments or rulerships can you name?

‘City States’ Monarchies; Plutocracy; Oligarchy’ Democracy’ Autocracy’ Socialistic’; Dictatorships’ Aristocracy;’ Totalitarianism; Fascism; Nazism; Communism; nationalism
and many more…back to article

14 Far from it. Nothing that men have tried has brought true peace and happiness for all. Instead, after all this time, conditions are more unstable than ever. Crime, war, family breakdown, poverty and hunger ravage country after country. Mankind’s very existence has been jeopardized. Nuclear missiles of awesome destructive power could annihilate most of, if not all, the human race. So, in spite of thousands of years of effort, in spite of many centuries of human experience to build upon and in spite of reaching new peaks of technological progress, mankind still grapples unsuccessfully with its most basic problems.

NOTE: Do you see why we need a "Kingdom (‘Government Isa. 9:6) to come " why it was the theme of Jesus’ teachings (Mt 6:9,10 31-33)

15 Even the earth itself has been adversely affected. Human greed and neglect have turned certain areas into deserts by stripping protective forests. Chemicals and other waste products have polluted land, sea and air. The Bible’s description, 2,000 years ago, of the condition of life on the earth is even more accurate today: “All creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.”—Romans 8:22.

NOTE: Okay, now we are getting to the point:

What Has Been Proved?

16 What have events during all this time proved beyond a doubt? That human rule independent of man’s Creator is unsatisfactory. Clearly it has been demonstrated that successful management of earth’s affairs is impossible apart from man’s Maker. History continues to confirm the Bible’s candid appraisal of human attempts to govern when it says: “Man has dominated man to his injury.”—Ecclesiastes 8:9.

17 How disastrously human endeavors have worked out, compared with the order and precision found in the universe as it is guided by the laws of its Creator! Clearly, humans also need this kind of guidance in governing their affairs, because ignoring God’s supervision has been disastrous. It truly has been demonstrated, for all time, that we have a need for God’s direction just as surely as we need air, water and food.—Matthew 4:4.

18 Also, by allowing enough time to settle the issues relative to human rule, God has established a permanent precedent for the future. It could be likened to a fundamental supreme court case. For all time the issue has been settled: Human rule apart from God cannot bring about desirable conditions on the earth. Thus, in the future, if any free agent should challenge God’s way of doing things, it would not be necessary to allow thousands of additional years to try to prove his contention.

Everything that needs to be proved has been proved in this period of about 6,000 years that God has allowed. So, throughout the eternity of time ahead, no rebel will ever again be allowed to mar the peace and happiness of life on the earth, or to interfere with God’s sovereignty anywhere else in the universe. As the Bible emphatically states: “Distress will not rise up a second time.”—Nahum 1:9.
Continued and conclusion coming up.

 

[zerinus]

6 Also, humans were created to be free agents. They were not made to react like robots, or compelled to do certain things primarily out of instinct, as are animals or insects. But this freedom was to be relative, not absolute. It was to be exercised responsibly, within the boundaries of God’s laws, laws that worked for the common good. Note how the Bible sets out this principle: “*Be as free people, and yet holding your freedom, not as a excuse for badness, but as slaves of God.” *(1 Peter 2:16) Without law to govern human interrelations, there would be anarchy, and the lives of all persons would be affected adversely.

7 Thus, while relative freedom is desirable, too much freedom is not. **If you give a child too much freedom, it may lead to his playing on a busy street, or putting his hand on a hot stove. Total freedom to make all of our own decisions without considering our Maker’s direction can cause all kinds of problems. **That was the case with the first humans. They chose to misuse their gift of freedom. *They decided, wrongly, to grasp for independence from their Creator and thereby “be like God.” *They felt that they could determine for themselves what was right and what was wrong.—Genesis 3:5.

NOTE: Think about that…

When the first humans pulled away from their Creator’s direction, what happened to them is similar to what happens when you pull out the plug of an electric fan. As long as the fan is plugged into a power source, it runs. But when disconnected, it slows down and eventually comes to a dead stop.

That is what happened when Adam and Eve pulled away from their Creator, “the source of life.” (Psalm 36:9) Since they willfully chose a course of independence from their Maker, he let them learn the full meaning of their choice by leaving them on their own. As a Bible principle states: “If you leave [God] he will leave you.” (2 Chronicles 15:2)

(KEY POINT) Without their Creator’s sustaining power, a gradual breakdown of mind and body began. In time, they grew old and died.—Genesis 3:19; 5:5.

9 When Adam and Eve chose to be independent of their Maker, they fell from perfection. This was before they had any children. **As a result, when they later had children, these reflected what the parents had become—imperfect. **So the first humans became like a defective pattern. Everything produced from them was also defective. Hence, we are all born imperfect and inherit the disabilities of aging, sickness and death. This imperfection, along with separation from the Creator and his laws, opened the floodgates of human folly. Thus, mankind’s history has been filled with suffering, sorrow, sickness and death.—Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12.

Okay, you are saying that the reason there is suffering in the world is because mankind have turned away from doing the will of God. Well, I don’t know of any traditional Christian who does not already believe that. So why should I or any other Christian become a JW when we already believe what you are telling us we should believe? I am still waiting for you to tell me what is special about what JWs believe that makes it better than what I believe, or any other Christian believes.

Is this to say that wickedness originated entirely with humans? No, there is more to it. The creation of intelligent creatures was not limited to humans. Already God had created countless spirit creatures in the heavens. (Job 38:4,*7) They too were free agents and also had a choice in accepting their Creator’s direction.

One of those spirit creatures chose to dwell on a desire for independence. His ambition built up to such a degree that it moved him to challenge God’s authority. He told Adam’s wife, Eve, that they could break God’s law and yet, as he assured her, “You positively will not die.” (Genesis 3:4; James 1:13-15) His statements implied that they did not need their Creator in order for them to have continued life and happiness. In fact, he said that lawbreaking would actually improve matters for them, enabling them to be like God. Thus he called into question the validity of God’s laws and cast doubt on God’s way of governing them. Indeed, he cast doubt on their Creator’s very right to rule. For this misrepresentation he came to be called Satan, which means “resister,” and Devil, meaning “slanderer.” For the past 6,000 years this attitude of Satan has influenced mankind, advancing a policy of ‘rule or ruin.’—Luke 4:2-8; 1*John 5:19; Revelation 12:9.

Okay, so you are telling us that another reason why there is evil in the world is because of the devil which causes people to do it. No problem, I believe that too. I think most Christians do. Still waiting to hear what makes JWs special from other Christians that should make me want to be a JW.

11 But why did God not destroy these lawbreakers, both human and spirit, at the start? The answer lies in the fact that **profound issues **had been raised before all intelligent creation. One of the issues involved questions such as:
Would independence from God’s sovereignty ever bring lasting benefits?
Would God’s direction of people be better for them, or would man’s own direction be better?
Could humans successfully govern this world independent of their Creator?
In short, did humans really need God’s guidance?
These questions required answers that only the passing of time could supply.

NOTE: PLEASE ponder the ramifications of that Continued…

Right, you are trying to say that human agency also had a part in that. Man had to be free to make his own decisions, rather than just being told what to do. Agreed. I have no problem with that either. That is what Mormonism teaches too. Still none the wiser why I should be a JW instead of a Mormon!

 

[dj_dave]

Everything that needs to be proved has been proved in this period of about 6,000 years that God has allowed.So, throughout the eternity of time ahead, no rebel will ever again be allowed to mar the peace and happiness of life on the earth, or to interfere with God’s sovereignty anywhere else in the universe. As the Bible emphatically states: “Distress will not rise up a second time.”—Nahum 1:9.
Continued and conclusion coming up.

END QUOTE

God’s Solution

19 Thus the Bible provides a reasonable explanation for the existence of suffering in a world created by God. Also the Bible clearly shows that the time is near when God will use his almighty power to remove those who cause suffering. Proverbs 2:21, 22 states: “The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.” Yes, God will “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” (Revelation 11:18) That will also include, finally, the elimination of Satan the Devil. (Romans 16:20) God will not allow the wicked to mar his beautiful creation, the earth, much longer. Any who do not conform to his laws will be uprooted. Only those who do God’s will are to continue living. (1*John 2:15-17) You would not plant a flower garden in a weed patch, nor place chickens and foxes in the same coop. So, too, when God restores Paradise for righteous humans, he will not let vandals run loose at the same time.

20 While the suffering of centuries has been very painful for those who have been victimized by it, it has served a good purpose. It could be compared to permitting your child to have a painful operation to correct a major health problem. The long-term benefits far outweigh any temporary pain. In addition, the future that God has purposed for this earth and humans on it will lift the weight of the past from memory: “The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” (Isaiah 65:17) Hence, whatever suffering that humans have experienced will eventually be erased from the minds of those living when God’s rulership holds sway over all the earth. At that time the joys will crowd out all the previous bad memories, for God “‘will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’ And the One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’”—Revelation 21:4,*5.

21 Jesus Christ spoke of this coming New World as “the re-creation.” (Matthew 19:28) The past victims of suffering and death then will learn that God does care about them, because that era will also see the literal re-creating of those who are dead in the grave. Jesus said: “All those in the memorial tombs . . . will come out” in a resurrection to life on earth. (John 5:28,*29) In this way, the dead also will be given the opportunity to submit to God’s righteous rule and gain the privilege of living forever “in Paradise,” as Jesus called it.—Luke 23:43.

22 Even the animal realm will be at peace. The Bible says that “the wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull,” and even “a mere little boy will be leader over them.” The animals will “do no harm nor cause any ruin” in God’s New Order, to one another or to humans.—Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25.

23 Thus, in every way, as Romans 8:21 states, “the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.” In time, the earth will become a paradise, inhabited by perfect people—free from sickness, sorrow and death. Suffering will be forever a thing of the past. All aspects of God’s earthly creation will come into complete harmony with his purpose, removing the ugly blot that has marred his universe for thousands of years.

24 This is how the Bible explains God’s permission of suffering, and what he will do to solve the problem.

Now you understand why Satan said what he did at Luke 4:5-8 and why of ancient and modern-day history that in every nation and under all circumstances true Christians have endeavored to maintain complete neutrality as to conflicts between factions of the world. **They do not interfere with what others do **about sharing in patriotic ceremonies, serving in the armed forces, joining a political party, running for a political office, or voting. But they themselves worship only Jehovah, the God of the Bible; they have dedicated their lives unreservedly to him and give their full support to his Kingdom.

Compare Dan 2 :44 Isa 2: 4

But What about the book of Job? And Why did Christ have to die?
What took him 4000 years to come to earth? And why has the world gotten worse since he left? ASK one of JEHOVAH"S WITNESSES
Phil 1:9,10 and Col 1:9,10 to all of you.

 

[zerinus]

back to the article:

Why So Long?

12 However, why has God permitted so much time to go by before settling these matters—about 6,000 years now? Could they not have been settled satisfactorily long ago? Well, if God had intervened long ago, the charge could have been made that humans were not given enough time to develop a workable government and the necessary technology to bring peace and prosperity to all. So, in his wisdom, God knew that it would take time to settle the issues that had been raised. He allowed that time.
13 Throughout the centuries, all types of governments, all types of social systems and all types of economic systems have been tried. In addition, humans have had enough time to make many technological advances, including harnessing the atom and traveling to the moon. With what results? Has all of this brought about the kind of world that is a real blessing to the entire human family?

Still waiting. None the wiser yet!

NOTE: How many types of governments or rulerships can you name?

‘City States’ Monarchies; Plutocracy; Oligarchy’ Democracy’ Autocracy’ Socialistic’; Dictatorships’ Aristocracy;’ Totalitarianism; Fascism; Nazism; Communism; nationalism
and many more…back to article

Wait a minute. That is your own comment. So what are you saying here? Are you suggesting that just because governments have been imperfect or failed that we don’t need government at all, or we should not be subject to its rule? Why don’t you get to your point from the start, instead of taking us on a tour half way around the world first?

14 Far from it. Nothing that men have tried has brought true peace and happiness for all. Instead, after all this time, conditions are more unstable than ever. Crime, war, family breakdown, poverty and hunger ravage country after country. Mankind’s very existence has been jeopardized. Nuclear missiles of awesome destructive power could annihilate most of, if not all, the human race. So, in spite of thousands of years of effort, in spite of many centuries of human experience to build upon and in spite of reaching new peaks of technological progress, mankind still grapples unsuccessfully with its most basic problems.

NOTE: Do you see why we need a "Kingdom (‘Government Isa. 9:6) to come " why it was the theme of Jesus’ teachings (Mt 6:9,10 31-33)

Okay, what is your point? Still waiting to hear.

15 Even the earth itself has been adversely affected. Human greed and neglect have turned certain areas into deserts by stripping protective forests. Chemicals and other waste products have polluted land, sea and air. The Bible’s description, 2,000 years ago, of the condition of life on the earth is even more accurate today: “All creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.”—Romans 8:22.

NOTE: Okay, now we are getting to the point:

Are you sure?

What Has Been Proved?

16 What have events during all this time proved beyond a doubt? That human rule independent of man’s Creator is unsatisfactory. Clearly it has been demonstrated that successful management of earth’s affairs is impossible apart from man’s Maker. History continues to confirm the Bible’s candid appraisal of human attempts to govern when it says: “Man has dominated man to his injury.”—Ecclesiastes 8:9.

Well, I think I already knew that too. Still waiting!

17 How disastrously human endeavors have worked out, compared with the order and precision found in the universe as it is guided by the laws of its Creator! Clearly, humans also need this kind of guidance in governing their affairs, because ignoring God’s supervision has been disastrous. It truly has been demonstrated, for all time, that we have a need for God’s direction just as surely as we need air, water and food.—Matthew 4:4.

18 Also, by allowing enough time to settle the issues relative to human rule, God has established a permanent precedent for the future. It could be likened to a fundamental supreme court case. For all time the issue has been settled: Human rule apart from God cannot bring about desirable conditions on the earth. Thus, in the future, if any free agent should challenge God’s way of doing things, it would not be necessary to allow thousands of additional years to try to prove his contention.

Getting bored now! :yawn:

Everything that needs to be proved has been proved in this period of about 6,000 years that God has allowed. So, throughout the eternity of time ahead, no rebel will ever again be allowed to mar the peace and happiness of life on the earth, or to interfere with God’s sovereignty anywhere else in the universe. As the Bible emphatically states: “Distress will not rise up a second time.”—Nahum 1:9.
Continued and conclusion coming up.

If I can stay awake that is!

 

[zerinus]

God’s Solution

19 Thus the Bible provides a reasonable explanation for the existence of suffering in a world created by God. Also the Bible clearly shows that the time is near when God will use his almighty power to remove those who cause suffering. Proverbs 2:21, 22 states: “The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.” Yes, God will “bring to ruin those ruining the earth.” (Revelation 11:18) That will also include, finally, the elimination of Satan the Devil. (Romans 16:20) God will not allow the wicked to mar his beautiful creation, the earth, much longer. Any who do not conform to his laws will be uprooted. Only those who do God’s will are to continue living. (1*John 2:15-17) You would not plant a flower garden in a weed patch, nor place chickens and foxes in the same coop. So, too, when God restores Paradise for righteous humans, he will not let vandals run loose at the same time.

20 While the suffering of centuries has been very painful for those who have been victimized by it, it has served a good purpose. It could be compared to permitting your child to have a painful operation to correct a major health problem. The long-term benefits far outweigh any temporary pain. In addition, the future that God has purposed for this earth and humans on it will lift the weight of the past from memory: “The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” (Isaiah 65:17) Hence, whatever suffering that humans have experienced will eventually be erased from the minds of those living when God’s rulership holds sway over all the earth. At that time the joys will crowd out all the previous bad memories, for God “‘will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’ And the One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’”—Revelation 21:4,*5.

21 Jesus Christ spoke of this coming New World as “the re-creation.” (Matthew 19:28) The past victims of suffering and death then will learn that God does care about them, because that era will also see the literal re-creating of those who are dead in the grave. Jesus said: “All those in the memorial tombs . . . will come out” in a resurrection to life on earth. (John 5:28,*29) In this way, the dead also will be given the opportunity to submit to God’s righteous rule and gain the privilege of living forever “in Paradise,” as Jesus called it.—Luke 23:43.

22 Even the animal realm will be at peace. The Bible says that “the wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull,” and even “a mere little boy will be leader over them.” The animals will “do no harm nor cause any ruin” in God’s New Order, to one another or to humans.—Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25.

23 Thus, in every way, as Romans 8:21 states, “the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.” In time, the earth will become a paradise, inhabited by perfect people—free from sickness, sorrow and death. Suffering will be forever a thing of the past. All aspects of God’s earthly creation will come into complete harmony with his purpose, removing the ugly blot that has marred his universe for thousands of years.

24 This is how the Bible explains God’s permission of suffering, and what he will do to solve the problem.

Now you understand why Satan said what he did at Luke 4:5-8 and why of ancient and modern-day history that in every nation and under all circumstances true Christians have endeavored to maintain complete neutrality as to conflicts between factions of the world. **They do not interfere with what others do **about sharing in patriotic ceremonies, serving in the armed forces, joining a political party, running for a political office, or voting. But they themselves worship only Jehovah, the God of the Bible; they have dedicated their lives unreservedly to him and give their full support to his Kingdom.

Compare Dan 2 :44 Isa 2: 4

But What about the book of Job? And Why did Christ have to die?
What took him 4000 years to come to earth? And why has the world gotten worse since he left? ASK one of JEHOVAH"S WITNESSES
Phil 1:9,10 and Col 1:9,10 to all of you.

Still not any the wiser why I should be a JW. I don’t doubt any of the scriptures you have quoted (inasmuch as they have been translated correctly ). You haven’t told me anything that I don’t already believe in, or that would make me want to be a JW. Do you think you could enlighten us more?

And you still haven’t answered my question of why I should be willing to read your Watchtower magazine when you are instructed by your church not to read my Ensign or Book of Mormon?

 

[dj_dave]

But What about the book of Job? And Why did Christ have to die?
What took him 4000 years to come to earth? And why has the world gotten worse since he left? ASK one of JEHOVAH"S WITNESSES
Phil 1:9,10 and Col 1:9,10 to all of you.

PS (I just read your questions Zerinus)

The real difference is that out of one hundred million (six lines of people across the US) people that died in war in the 20th Century, not one was killed by one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. ALL readers Ask yourselves if a war broke out between Germany and America or any other nation against nation would members of your religlion kill other members of your religion? If so, then you will not be in God’s Kingdom Rev 19:11-19

(1 John 4:20-21) 20 If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.

Rom. 13:1, 5-7: *“Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities [governmental rulers], for there is no authority except by God . . . There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. . . . Render to all their dues, to him who calls for the tax, the tax; to him who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to him who calls for fear, such fear; to him who calls for honor, such honor.” *(No government could exist without God’s permission. Regardless of the conduct of individual officials, true Christians have shown them respect because of the office they occupied. For example, regardless of the use that governments have made of tax money, worshipers of Jehovah have made honest payment of their taxes in return for those services from which everyone could benefit.)

Caesar, but God’s things to God.’” (So Christians have always recognized that they must not only “pay back” money in the form of taxes to the secular government but also fulfill the superior obligations they have toward God.)

Acts 5:28,*29: “[A spokesman for the Jewish high court] said: ‘*We positively ordered you [the apostles] not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name [of Jesus Christ], and yet, look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.’ *In answer Peter and the other apostles said: ‘We must obey God as ruler rather than men.’” (When there has been a direct conflict between the commands of human rulers and the requirements of God, true Christians have imitated the example of the apostles by putting obedience to God first.)

As to serving in the armed forces, what does secular history disclose about the attitude of early Christians?

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.

“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.”—Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.

“They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.

I’m sorry to be so direct but the suffering JW’s have been through because of their stand is horrendous jehovah.to/gen/holocaust/index.htm

Gotta run…once again Phil 1:9,10 and Col 1:9,10 to all of you.

 

[zerinus]

PS (I just read your questions Zerinus)

The real difference is that out of one hundred million (six lines of people across the US) people that died in war in the 20th Century, not one was killed by one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. ALL readers ssk yourselves if a war broke out between Germany and America or any other nation against nation would members of your religlion kill other members of your religion?

That doesn’t help to win any respect for JWs from me. Of those who died in those wars, many did so in order to protect you in your right to be a JW. If they hadn’t done that, Hitler would have come and put all you JWs into gas chambers. Is that how you reward those who gave their lives to protect your freedom to be a JW?

(1 John 4:20-21) 20 If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.

Where does it say in the Bible that if you are attacked by an evil enemy, you should not defend yourself, or your family, or your friends, or you neighbor, or your country?

Rom. 13:1, 5-7: *“Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities [governmental rulers], for there is no authority except by God . . . There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience. . . . Render to all their dues, to him who calls for the tax, the tax; to him who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to him who calls for fear, such fear; to him who calls for honor, such honor.” *(No government could exist without God’s permission. Regardless of the conduct of individual officials, true Christians have shown them respect because of the office they occupied. For example, regardless of the use that governments have made of tax money, worshipers of Jehovah have made honest payment of their taxes in return for those services from which everyone could benefit.)

Big deal! They would put you in jail if you didn’t pay your taxes!

Caesar, but God’s things to God.’” (So Christians have always recognized that they must not only “pay back” money in the form of taxes to the secular government but also fulfill the superior obligations they have toward God.)

Which means what? Being a JW? I still want to know why? You still haven’t given me a good reason why I should want to be a JW.

Acts 5:28,*29: “[A spokesman for the Jewish high court] said: ‘*We positively ordered you [the apostles] not to keep teaching upon the basis of this name [of Jesus Christ], and yet, look! you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you are determined to bring the blood of this man upon us.’ *In answer Peter and the other apostles said: ‘We must obey God as ruler rather than men.’” (When there has been a direct conflict between the commands of human rulers and the requirements of God, true Christians have imitated the example of the apostles by putting obedience to God first.)

As to serving in the armed forces, what does secular history disclose about the attitude of early Christians?

“A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”—The Rise of Christianity (London, 1947), E. W. Barnes, p. 333.

I have to study that more carefully. I don’t think early Christians were “pacifists”.

“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.”—Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.

That does not teach “pacifism,” and it does not mean that Justin was a “pacifist”.

“They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . it was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”—History of Christianity (New York, 1891), Edward Gibbon, pp. 162, 163.

I would need to study the context to come to a conclusion about that.

 

[dj_dave]

Still not any the wiser why I should be a JW. I don’t doubt any of the scriptures you have quoted (inasmuch as they have been translated correctly ). You haven’t told me anything that I don’t already believe in, or that would make me want to be a JW. Do you think you could enlighten us more?

And you still haven’t answered my question of why I should be willing to read your Watchtower magazine when you are instructed by your church not to read my Ensign or Book of Mormon?

okay, I had to peek to see what replys I got…Back for a moment…Zerinus, with all due respect** I find it hard to believe that this is the answer that you would have given anyone if they had asked you 'why God allows suffereing.**

IT SEEMS TO GO COMPLETELY AGAINST YOUR ACCOUNT OF ADAM AND EVE

*2 Nephi 2:22-25
“According to the foreordained plan, Adam was to fall; . . . Adam was to introduce mortality and all
that attends it, so that the opportunity for eternal progression and perfection might be offered to all
the spirit children of the Father.” (Bruce R. McConkie, LDS Apostle, Mormon Doctrine, p. 268)
“This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that
Adam and Eve had to do!” (Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th Prophet of the LDS Church, Doctrines of
Salvation, Vol.1, p.115)
“The so-called ‘fall’ became a necessary, honorable act in carrying out the plan of the Almighty.”
(LDS Apostle John A. Widtsoe, Joseph Smith - Seeker After Truth, p. 160)
“And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the
earth, saying: Blessed be God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall
have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad,saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have known seed, and never should have known

Compare:
(Genesis 3:17-19) ...And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

also…
…we are not ‘instructed by our church’ to do anything we don’t want to do. Why should we give anyone the impression that we are searching for answers. We are confident we have the TRUTH.
(Isaiah 43:9-10) ...Let the nations all be collected together at one place, and let national groups be gathered together. Who is there among them that can tell this? Or can they cause us to hear even the first things? Let them furnish their witnesses, that they may be declared righteous, or let them hear and say, ‘It is the truth!’” 10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, . . .

Futhermore, We have an abundant supply of Morman infomation and articles straight from your leaders.

Gotta run*

 

[dj_dave]

That doesn’t help to win any respect for JWs from me. Of those who died in those wars, many did so in order to protect you in your right to be a JW. If they hadn’t done that, Hitler would have come and put all you JWs into gas chambers. Is that how you reward those who gave their lives to protect your freedom to be a JW?

Where does it say in the Bible that if you are attacked by an evil enemy, you should not defend yourself, or your family, or your friends, or you neighbor, or your country?

Big deal! They would put you in jail if you didn’t pay your taxes!

Which means what? Being a JW? I still want to know why? You still haven’t given me a good reason why I should want to be a JW.

I have to study that more carefully. I don’t think early Christians were “pacifists”.

That does not teach “pacifism,” and it does not mean that Justin was a “pacifist”.

I would need to study the context to come to a conclusion about that.

Try a Google search on “early Christians and war” also see

harmlessasdoves.com/earlychurch.html

 

[dj_dave]

Try a Google search on “early Christians and war” also see

harmlessasdoves.com/earlychurch.html

That doesn’t help to win any respect for JWs from me. Of those who died in those wars, many did so in order to protect you in your right to be a JW. If they hadn’t done that, Hitler would have come and put all you JWs into gas chambers. Is that how you reward those who gave their lives to protect your freedom to be a JW?
Where does it say in the Bible that if you are attacked by an evil enemy, you should not defend yourself, or your family, or your friends, or you neighbor, or your country?*

END QUOTE

I agree thar war is a terrible thing. and I have deep sympathy for those that died.–I do however believe we will see them all again soon…But, it had to come about because of Christ’s knowing it would. (Matt 24:3,6) NOTE: the Bible foretold that there would be a group of Christians that ‘in the last days’ would "beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. …AND learn war anymore

Paul SAID (2 Corinthians 10:3-4) ..… 4**For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things*.

and YES WE WOULD PROTECT OUR FAMILY if a robber broke into our home.
BUT, when the nations demand that we go “kill”–we would rather die before we murdered another human. There is no ‘just war’

QUESTION: In the following comment could we insert Mormans too? I don’t really know…

*** g94 10/22 p. 3 Religion Takes Sides ***

ON September 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland, starting World War*II. Three weeks later The New York Times carried the headline: “German Soldiers Rallied by Churches.” Did German churches really support Hitler’s wars?

Friedrich Heer, Roman Catholic professor of history at Vienna University, acknowledged that they did: “In the cold facts of German history, the Cross and the swastika came ever closer together, until the swastika proclaimed the message of victory from the towers of German cathedrals, swastika flags appeared round altars and Catholic and Protestant theologians, pastors, churchmen (MORMAN’S?) and statesmen welcomed the alliance with Hitler.”

Indeed, church leaders gave unqualified support to Hitler’s war effort, as Roman Catholic professor Gordon Zahn wrote: “The German Catholic who looked to his religious superiors for spiritual guidance and direction regarding service in Hitler’s wars received virtually the same answers he would have received from the Nazi ruler himself.”
Religions on the Other Side

But what were churches saying in the countries that opposed Germany? The New York Times of December 29, 1966, reported: “In the past local Catholic hierarchies almost always supported the wars of their nations, blessing troops and offering prayers for victory, while another group of bishops on the other side publicly prayed for the opposite outcome.”

Was this support of opposing armies done with Vatican (MORMAN?) approval? Consider: On December 8, 1939, just three months after the outbreak of World War*II, Pope Pius XII issued the pastoral letter Asperis Commoti Anxietatibus. The letter was addressed to chaplains in armies of the warring nations, and it urged those on both sides to have confidence in their respective military bishops. The letter admonished the chaplains “as fighters under the flags of their country to fight also for the Church.”

Religion often takes an aggressive lead in mobilizing countries for war. “Even in our churches we have put the battle flags,” admitted the late Harry Emerson Fosdick, a Protestant clergyman. And regarding the first world war, British brigadier general Frank P.*Crozier said: “The Christian Churches are the finest blood-lust creators which we have, and of them we made free use.”

Notice too…
*** g94 10/22 p. 7 True Christians and War ***
In Hungary, a writer in Ring magazine of November 4, 1992, said of Jehovah’s Witnesses: “They would choose to die rather than kill someone. Consequently, I am sure if only Jehovah’s Witnesses lived on the earth then wars would not break out anywhere.” Reo M.*Christenson, a professor of political science, discussed in The Christian Century whether a genuine Christian could take part in war, and he concluded:

“Can anyone seriously conceive of Jesus hurling hand grenades at his enemies, using a machine gun, manipulating a flamethrower, dropping nuclear bombs or launching an ICBM which would kill or cripple thousands of mothers and children? The question is so absurd that it scarcely merits an answer. If Jesus could not do this and be true to his character, then how can we do it and be true to him?” A thought-provoking question.

Yet, the religions of the world continue to take sides in war. Catholics keep on killing Catholics, and those of other religions kill either people of their own faith or members of other churches. To follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, firm conviction and courage are required 1 Pet 2:21-23

BTW I was in the Navy…but, I received a visit from one of those that said “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah,(True elevated Worship in the ‘Last Days’) to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.”…I listened and learned. Respectfully, we have a knowledge of the Bible that goes far beyond what you can imagine. We have a special weekly Ministry School (Free) that teaches us how to teach it True, somethings needed to be readjusted web.archive.org/web/20040204191946/mysite.freeserve.com/newworldtranslation/pageindex.htm and jehovah.to/xlation/fp.htmlalso…users.picknowl.com.au/~hepburn/prophecy.htm

(Daniel 12:3-4) 3*“And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever. 4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.” …that time is now…or do you think this is talking about the Mormans? I will not Judge. Only time will tell. Again, I have deep sympathy for those that died.–I do however believe we will see them all again soon. re-read all of my posts now, it might surprise you.

Agape, DJ DAVE

 

[zerinus]

okay, I had to peek to see what replys I got…Back for a moment…Zerinus, with all due respect** I find it hard to believe that this is the answer that you would have given anyone if they had asked you 'why God allows suffereing.**

Well, I still can’t say that I know precisely what is the JW explanation for the existence of evil and suffering in the world, because you take people on a tour half way round the world before you tell them anything. It leaves one a little confused at the end. But I can tell you what the Mormon explanation is for the reason why God permits suffering and evil to exist in the world. Then you can compare the two, and tell me how they differ, and why you think your explanation is better than ours. The Mormon explanation in a nutshell is as follows:

The purpose of God sending mankind on earth is to test them to see if they would be faithful and obedient to all His commands. Those who would be obedient would be rewarded accordingly, and those not obedient would be punished (see Abraham 3:24–26). But in order for man to be tested in this way, he had to be free to make a choice between good and evil; and he couldn’t be free to choose between good and evil if that choice was not offered to him in the first place. In other words, the option between good and evil had to exist for him to make a choice between the two. So God allowed Satan to tempt mankind in order to provide that option. God would persuade them to do good through His prophets, the scriptures, and by His Holy Spirit; while Satan would persuade them to disbelieve in God, and disobey His prophets, His scriptures, and His Spirit. He would entice them to do evil rather than good. Man was caught in the middle of this, which enabled him to make a choice. If either of those choices were not presented to him, he couldn’t choose between the two, and he couldn’t be free. Now, if God intervened every time a crime was about to be committed, and prevented it from happening, that would defeat the objective of this world being a testing ground to see who would choose good and who evil. A crime has to be committed before someone can be found guilty of it. Now when people commit crimes, they don’t just hurt themselves, but innocent victims as well. So this world by its very nature is a place where evil will exist, and innocent people will get hurt. But that suffering itself can be part of the test too, to see how we cope with it. Do we forgive the wrong somebody has done to us (as God requires), or do we hold a grudge? Do we lose faith and curse God because of our sufferings, or do we bear it patiently by putting our faith and trust in God as did Job? That is part of the test as well. But the good news is that this testing period does not last very long; and when it is over, if we pass the test, the suffering will end, and we will be happy for the rest of the eternity to come. That is the Mormon explanation of why God permits evil and suffering to exist in the world in which we presently live.

Now you tell me how that differs from the JW explanation, and why you think your explanation is better than ours.

IT SEEMS TO GO COMPLETELY AGAINST YOUR ACCOUNT OF ADAM AND EVE

I don’t know why you should think that, but I will tell you what role Adam and Eve play in this act. We believe that the Fall of Adam and Eve was a necessary part of the above plan, for the simple reason that man could not be tested to see if he would choose between good and evil if he didn’t know the difference between the two in the first place. Remember that this world is a place of testing, to see who would choose good and who evil. So how could they make that choice if they didn’t know what the difference between the two was in the first place? And He couldn’t know that difference without partaking of the forbidden fruit. That is why we believe the Fall was a necessary part of the plan.

also…
…we are not ‘instructed by our church’ to do anything we don’t want to do.

Well, they couldn’t exactly force you not to read them if you were determined to; but they advise you not to, and you would be going against rules of your religion if went against it.

Why should we give anyone the impression that we are searching for answers. We are confident we have the TRUTH.

So do we; but my Church doesn’t tell me not to read your literature. The JW religion, on the other hand, tries to keep you in the dark about everything, not just about Mormonism or other religions. They discourage you from gaining a higher education, or advanced professional qualifications. They discourage you from advancing in your professional life, as well as your educational life. It can have a potentially very negative and damaging influence in peoples’ lives. Mormonism doesn’t do that. In fact it does the opposite. It encourages its members to get the best education they can possibly get, and become the best trained and best qualified people in their chosen professions that they can become. That is why Mormons generally tend to be better educated and trained than the average population. They punch above their weight. You will find a disproportionately large number of successful Mormons in business, politics, education, and in other fields of endeavor. The JW religion seems to have a vested interest in keeping you as ignorant as you can possibly be not just about other religions, but in everything else. That should set all your alarm bells ringing if you think about it.

 

[zerinus]

I agree thar war is a terrible thing. and I have deep sympathy for those that died.–I do however believe we will see them all again soon…But, it had to come about because of Christ’s knowing it would. (Matt 24:3,6) NOTE: the Bible foretold that there would be a group of Christians that ‘in the last days’ would "beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. …AND learn war anymore

Paul SAID (2 Corinthians 10:3-4) ..… 4**For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things*.

and YES WE WOULD PROTECT OUR FAMILY if a robber broke into our home.
BUT, when the nations demand that we go “kill”–we would rather die before we murdered another human. There is no ‘just war’

QUESTION: In the following comment could we insert Mormans too? I don’t really know…

*** g94 10/22 p. 3 Religion Takes Sides ***

---

When there is a war between two countries, usually one side is an aggressor, and the other side is just defending itself. Now when you live in a country which is being attacked by an aggressor, it is the duty of every citizen to join the forces that are defending his country against that aggression. There is no difference between that and defending your family against a robber. Now if you live in a country which is acting as the aggressor, it is then up to each citizen of that country to decide how they want to react to that situation. During WWII Germany was the aggressor, and other countries were acting in self-defense—and quite rightly so, to defend your right as well as mine to be what we want to be.

 

[zerinus]

Try a Google search on “early Christians and war” also see

harmlessasdoves.com/earlychurch.html

The early Christians lived in the Roman world, and the Roman army was an aggressive force, not just a defensive force. In those days most wars were wars of conquest. It was considered acceptable for a stronger nation to concur and subdue a weaker one. The military was not just about self-defense.

Another factor was that in those days the Christians were a small and persecuted minority; and the chief instrument of their persecution was in fact the army. Joining the Roman army was like joining their own persecutors. The Roman army was also culturally very pagan and idolatrous. All of these factors and more besides prevented the Christians from wanting to be part of the army.

The early Christians were not “pacifists” in the modern sense of the term. A lot of the comments about “non-violence” that one finds in the literature of the time had to do with the persecution of the Christians themselves. The early Christians were powerless against the might of Rome, and any attempt at “armed struggle” against their persecutors would have been fatal for the Christians. They had no choice but to adopt a policy of non-violence against their persecutors, which comes across today as “pacifistic”.