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dj_dave
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by the way you will find this site VERY interesting web.archive.org/web/20040605095002/hector3000.future.easyspace.com/prototokos.htm
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dianaiad
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Actually, I don’t know whether you were accurate in describing Catholic beliefs or not, Dave. I’m not Catholic, and never was one. I wasn’t trying to accuse you of being incorrect in what you wrote. I simply noted that you did reference Catholic teachings (or what you assume or remember Catholic teachings to be) and commented on the general nature of what happens when you do that sort of thing.
Consider: if I were to talk to you about my own beliefs regarding the composition of the Godhead (we are not trinitarians), and began it by saying something like “well, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus is created, not co-eternal with God, and is thus not God, but is something lesser, like a prophet. The scriptures disprove this in this verse or that verse, and we don’t believe it.”
What I have just done is to put a screeching halt to the conversation, haven’t I? Before we can continue to talk about what I believe, you are going to have to correct the errors in what I just claimed. It has been my experience that very few conversations get back on track after that; it is permanently derailed.
I just don’t want the conversation derailed, is all. I want to learn what you believe.
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dianaiad
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Thank you. It is interesting to see the reasoning behind the idea.
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zerinus
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Several years ago a JW gave me a little book called, You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth. It is a small format booklet of about 250 pages long that gives quite a detailed exposition of their theology. I don’t know if the JWs still give out that book or not. If you can obtain a copy of that book, or ask a JW to give you one, you won’t need another book. It tells you all you need to know about their beliefs.
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lilred5
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Well, thanks for the replys!
I’m very interested in others religious beliefs and always thought (for whatever reason) LDS and JWs were similar.
Obviously I was wrong.
dianaiad - When it comes to the baptisms for the dead, the deceased can choose whether or not they wish to accept the baptism? Is this only for deceased who have relatives in the Mormon religion?
I’m very interested in others religious beliefs and always thought (for whatever reason) LDS and JWs were similar.
Obviously I was wrong.
dianaiad - When it comes to the baptisms for the dead, the deceased can choose whether or not they wish to accept the baptism? Is this only for deceased who have relatives in the Mormon religion?
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zerinus
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I think that is a big discussion over a small issue. A more significant point of discussion in my opinion concerns the JW ideas of the resurrection, and especially the resurrection of Jesus Christ. As far as I can recall from reading that little book I just recommended to dianaiad, you believe that Jesus Christ was not resurrected with a physical body, or with the same body which was laid in the tomb. His resurrection was some kind of spiritual phenomenon, and His appearances to His disciples were more apparitions rather than the real thing, all of which I believe contradicts the biblical teaching.
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zerinus
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Yes!Well, thanks for the replys!
I’m very interested in others religious beliefs and always thought (for whatever reason) LDS and JWs were similar.
Obviously I was wrong.
dianaiad - When it comes to the baptisms for the dead, the deceased can choose whether or not they wish to accept the baptism?
It applies to all the deceased for whom the work is done.
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dianaiad
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Absolutely. Given our belief in free will/free agency, that is paramount. The choice is always theirs.Well, thanks for the replys!
I’m very interested in others religious beliefs and always thought (for whatever reason) LDS and JWs were similar.
Obviously I was wrong.
dianaiad - When it comes to the baptisms for the dead, the deceased can choose whether or not they wish to accept the baptism?
I’m not quite certain what you are asking here; we concentrate upon doing the work for relatives first, but that very quickly branches out…by the time we have gone back four generations, for instance, we are looking at doing work for AT LEAST 28 people, and that doesn’t count aunts, uncles and cousins.
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yellowbird
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I have an LDS question. Is it true that you believe that everyone will go to one of the three levels of heaven? A missionary told me once (in jest I think) that he was pretty sure that I’d get to go to the 2nd level of heaven, that faithful LDS go to the 1st level and that criminal sorts go to the 3rd but nobody gets sent to hell. Well, maybe people who left the LDS church? But other than them - nobody. At least that is what I remember but it’s been many years.
Is any of that true? Or is my understanding totally wacked?
Is any of that true? Or is my understanding totally wacked?
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dianaiad
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Yes and no. You aren’t totally whacky. Just a little bit.
We do believe that there are basically three levels of heaven (more, actually…you know, the ‘in my Father’s house are many mansions’ sort of thing?
Yes, we believe that the ‘highest’ one, the Celestial Kingdom, is reserved to those who have fully accepted the gospel. All of it. The ‘bottom’ one is where those who screwed up go; the liars, the muderers…but even that is better than here, by a long shot.
So far, so good, right?
Now here’s the thing; we do believe in hell. Perdition, Outer Darkness, whatever you want to call it. It is the perfect absence of God or His influence, we believe. It is where Satan dwells. It is not easy, we don’t believe, to actually quallify for that one. In order to ‘earn’ it, one must commit the unforgivable sin; to sin against the Holy Ghost. In other words, in full knowledge of precsely what you are doing, you tell God and the Holy Ghost to pound sand. Not too many people qualify for that one, I don’t think.
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zerinus
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We believe that heaven is graded. It is not all one place. Paul said that he was taken to the “third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12:1–4). So there are at least three heavens, according to Paul. The question is who gets to go where? We believe that most people will eventually go to one of those kingdoms; but those who have committed serious sins (and have not repented of them in this life) don’t get away with their sins scot-free. They still have to pay for them in hell. But after they have paid the penalty, they will be saved in one of the three kingdoms, most likely in the lowest one. This is similar to the purgatory idea of Catholicism.
There is a permanent hell, as dianaiad explained; but that is reserved for those who commit the unpardonable sin; and we don’t think there are too many of those, compared to the rest of humanity. The LDS theology of what happens to you after death is taught in section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which can be read here.
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dj_dave
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where did i state what catholics believe?
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zerinus
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You are not answering my questions though. What is the source of the JW belief that Jesus Christ was not resurrected physically?
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dianaiad
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Right here:
dj dave:
You took what you perceived as Catholic belief and used it (actually, you skewed it a bit) in order to present your argument for your belief.
If I were a Catholic, the first thing I would do upon reading the above is to stop reading the above–and turn my attention to correcting what I thought was a skewed presentation of what I believed. In this case, I might think 'this guy hasn’t got a clue what we believe about the Trinity…" and then the rest of your explanation would be blown off.
Not to mention that if you were attempting to talk to ME, your attempt to use that particular analogy would be so off track as to make no sense.
However, if you had simply presented what you believe without attempting to ‘relate’ to Catholic belief, (or mine, when we get there) then you can use the same information with both of us, in exactly the same way. You can alter your presentation to include our beliefs once we tell you what they are and we both agree about what they are. Later.
Simply tell us what you believe, and why. We already know what we believe. If there are analogies there, we will all figure them out, no problem.
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dj_dave
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I WAS QUOTING yellowbird…YOU NUT! Look at it again…back soon
By the way, I was looking at all the questions everybody was asking and it was quite confusing to know where to start. Therefore I am going to ask everybody to ask just 2 questions each (for now) that they really want answers to and I will answer them in the order they appear under this post
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dj_dave
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dianaiad
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OK, I found the quote.
Sorry about the confusion. Dave? you didn’t use the quote function on this forum, or even put quotes around yellowbird’s words. You need to do that when quoting a previous poster in order to be clear; several pages elapsed, and there was nothing in your post itself to indicate that you were quoting anybody else.
You are new, and sometimes it takes a little bit of time to figure these things out. The most important thing to remember (and really, all you need to know, though there are bunch of other bells and whistles you can use) is that you need to put a bracket “” then the word ‘quote’, then the opposite bracket ‘]’ before something you want to quote, and then when you are through with that quote, place a bracket “,” then a forward slash “/,” the word 'quote," followed by a bracket. Like this: .
I would give you an illustration of this, but doing so would just give you this:
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However, if you answer this post, and hit the ‘preview post’ button rather than 'submit reply," you’ll see what the quote signals look like.
All this, of course, is by way of me saying “it’s your fault I screwed up.”
So there.
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dj_dave
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.
I would give you an illustration of this, but doing so would just give you this:
.
However, if you answer this post, and hit the ‘preview post’ button rather than 'submit reply," you’ll see what the quote signals look like.
All this, of course, is by way of me saying “it’s your fault I screwed up.”
So there.
Ps 130:3
2 questions? …I’m waiting
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dj_dave
Guest
“It is interesting to see the reasoning behind the idea.?”…
That was an exceptional explanation from Greek Scholars. It leaves no doubt about Colossians 1:15-20 --and that many sources claim that Jesus was created. Also, did you follow the link to Rev 3:14
web.archive.org/web/20040602203344/hector3000.future.easyspace.com/arche.htm ? Before I forget, those links quoted
[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beliefs...39;s_Witnesses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beliefs...39;s_Witnesses)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah’s_Witnesses
watchtowerinformationserv…tness-beliefs
were pretty much correct regarding Jehovah’s Witnesses…now, the only thing you might want is the Scriptural reasons. Just ask.
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dianaiad
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Ps. 130:4..
dianaiad:
Ps 130:3I would give you an illustration of this, but doing so would just give you this:
.
However, if you answer this post, and hit the ‘preview post’ button rather than 'submit reply," you’ll see what the quote signals look like.
All this, of course, is by way of me saying “it’s your fault I screwed up.”
So there.
2 questions? …I’m waiting
I gave you a list:
Pick any two, preferably related. The first two on the list will do fine.
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