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Bill_Pick
Guest
Are they both Cults,The JW and the Mormons, and do they both not believe in the Trinity. And I think the Moron strill baptism dead people.
- Status
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dianaiad
Guest
Hmn.
What was it I mentioned about how much better CAF is than CARM?
Don’t start proving me wrong, Bill. The above post would pass the snark test for CARM just fine.
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dianaiad
Guest
Yes. It was interesting to see the reasoning behind the idea. I also found the reasoning of Plato, Aristotle, Antishtenes, Diogenes, Epictetus interesting, as well. I tend not to be bored by worthwhile things.
On the other hand, I am not overwhelmed by the fact that these guys lived a long time before I was born. If their ideas were wrong then, they are wrong now…and the fact that they’ve been around awhile does NOT mean that they are true, y’know. After all, the Egyptians believed in Horus for a lot longer than we have believed in Jesus Christ.
? Before I forget, those links quoted
[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beliefs...39;s_Witnesses](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beliefs...39;s_Witnesses)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah’s_Witnesses
watchtowerinformationserv…tness-beliefs
were pretty much correct regarding Jehovah’s Witnesses…now, the only thing you might want is the Scriptural reasons. Just ask.
You have restricted me to two questions, and I can understand why. You would get overwhelmed if you didn’t grab some control over this process. I got the reason you believe that Jesus is/was a created Being. OK…
However, you’ve already answered that one. You believe that Jesus was a created being, and you are not a trinitarian. Thank you. Now I’ll let you pick two questions from the list I gave you, and thank you for those answers.
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dj_dave
Guest
Why are we here?
Jehovah’s witnesses believe LIFE is a gift from God. No one would have life at all had not God, because of his own generosity, created the first man and woman. (Revelation 4:11) Being sinful people, we would not be here if God had not patiently ‘put up’ with our ways. As I stated earlier “If errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand?” —Psalm 130:3.
It is God’s will that the human race keep on living. (1 Timothy 2:3, 4; See Ps 37:10,11, 29) He gave mankind, not mere life, but life with a purpose. God does not grant everlasting life to his enemies, because they would only cause disorder in the earth and harm to others. So our obtaining everlasting life is dependent on our faith in God, which really means that we must be friends of God. “Without faith it is impossible to please him well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.”—Hebrews 11:6.
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Our faith, then, gains the friendship of God, and this friendship means a reward. In my study of the Bible, I am actually seeking him—that is, seeking to know him, to please him and become friends with him. And as we learn more about him our faith will become stronger, more solidly founded.—2 Peter 1:5-8.
We cannot see what God sees. God reveals his secrets to those who have a sincerely inquiring mind to know about him, as Jesus pointed out. (Matthew 13:10-15) And he knows just when circumstances are right for the individual to see and grasp the truth of the good news. (Acts 8:25-36) God’s choice of friends is right. He does not make mistakes Acts 13:48.
Jehovah God sees hearts. He blesses those who use their reasoning power and look sincerely into his Word. He appreciates and favors those who do even the slightest service toward him, giving them further opportunities to know him.—Matthew 10:40-42.
However, the apostle Paul warned: “Working together with him, we also entreat you not to accept the undeserved kindness of God and miss its purpose.” (2 Corinthians 6:1) It is up to the one whom God has favored with his kindness to appreciate it and to go ahead and come to establish a real, lasting relationship with him. (2 Corinthians 6:2) What a pity for one who, receiving God’s favor, turns away and loses out on the fine reward!—Proverbs 4:5-9.
The will of God is that we conform our life to his purpose because only God’s wisdom and guidance can bring us to a desirable, happy goal. A man or woman may set out to accomplish a purpose with good intentions, and that purpose may appear to succeed for a while. But if it has no regard for God’s direction it will end only in frustration. Such a person will actually be out of harmony with the rest of God’s creation.
In pursuing a purpose in life as a follower of Jesus Christ it is entirely proper, and not selfish, to look for God to reward you for faithfulness to him. (Colossians 3:24) Jehovah wants us to know that he is the kind of God that rewards those who love him. He is not like many worldly persons who have no appreciation or consideration for those who do things in love or loyalty. And a god without appreciation and loyalty, who never rewarded his servants, would be unworthy of worship. But Jehovah is loyal; he is warmhearted and draws close to his friends. (Jeremiah 3:12) Even if we should make a bad mistake, entreat his forgiveness in prayer. (1 John 1:9; 2:1, 2; Luke 18:1-8) Seek help from fellow Christians. (James 5:16-18) If you hold fast to faith in him, he “will by no means leave you nor by any means forsake you.”—Hebrews 13:5, 6.
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dianaiad
Guest
Ok, from the above I glean the following:
Life is a gift from God.
It is God’s will that the human race keep on living.: that God gives us life with a purpose, which seems to be becoming 'friends with God." or having faith in Him.
Our purpose is to gain, and improve in, a relationship with God, and to expect rewards from Him, but that we cannot assume that we deserve any of those rewards; that we are not ‘doing Him a favor.’ by behaving ourselves. He will do what He will do.
Finally, there are many mysteries with God; He will reveal His purposes to whom He will reveal them, at the proper place and time.
Do I have that about right?
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dj_dave
Guest
Where did we come from?
Simply stated, The dirt. Gen 2:7…not heaven… Jesus said “(John 8:21-23) ...Where I am going YOU cannot come.” 22Therefore the Jews began to say: “He will not kill himself, will he? Because he says, ‘Where I am going YOU cannot come.’” 23So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”
SIDE POINT: Nowhere does the Bible say that man was ‘given’ a soul. Nowhere will you find the term “Immortal soul” in the Bible…did you know that the Heb word for soul means “air breathing”? See Ezek 18:4
FOR ALL YOU OTHERS READING THIS Historians point out that the teaching that man possesses a separate, immortal soul did not originate with the Bible but with Greek philosophy. The New Catholic Encyclopedia observes that the ancient Hebrews did not think of man as being composed of a material body and an immaterial soul. It states about the Hebrews’ belief: “When the breath of life entered the first man whom God formed out of the ground, he became a ‘living being’ (G[enesis]*2.7). Death was not regarded as a separation of two distinct elements in man, as in Greek philosophy; the breath of life departs and man is left a ‘dead being’ (L[eviticus] 21.11; N[umbers]*6.6; 19.13). In each case the word ‘being’ would be the Hebrew [ne′phesh], translated ‘soul’ but, in fact, virtually equated with the person.”
That same encyclopedia notes that Catholic scholars recently “have maintained that the N[ew] T[estament] does not teach the immortality of the soul in the Hellenistic [Greek] sense.” It concludes: “The ultimate solution to the problem is to be found not so much in philosophical speculation as in the supernatural gift of the Resurrection.”
Now notice Dianaiad these are quotes-- not me saying it. So, did I answer both questions?
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dj_dave
Guest
“at the proper place and time” if the person’s heart (Motivation) is right. Remember Luke 10:21 and Matt 18:3
Also, here is an excerpt from our “Reasoning” Book that Catholic Dude spoke of a while back
*** rs p. 243 - p. 245 Life ***
What is the purpose of human life?
Basic to having purpose in our lives is recognition of the Source of life. If life were the product of mindless chance, our existence would, of necessity, be without purpose, and there would be no dependable future for which we could plan. But Acts 17:24, 25, 28 informs us: “The God that made the world and all the things in it . . . gives to all persons life and breath and all things. For by him we have life and move and exist.” Revelation 4:11, which is addressed to God, adds: “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”
Frustration results from a life course that conflicts with the Creator’s requirements and his guidelines for happiness. Galatians 6:7, 8 warns: “Do not be misled: God is not one to be mocked. For whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap; because he who is sowing with a view to his flesh will reap corruption from his flesh.”—Also Galatians 5:19-21
The inheritance of sin from Adam prevents humans from having at present full enjoyment of life as God purposed at the beginning. Romans 8:20 states that, as a result of divine judgment following Adam’s sin, “the creation [humankind] was subjected to futility.” Regarding his own situation as a sinful human, the apostle Paul wrote: “I am fleshly, sold under sin. For the good that I wish I do not do, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I behold in my members another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my members. Miserable man that I am!”—Rom. 7:14, 19, 22-24.
We find the greatest happiness possible now and our lives take on richness of meaning when we apply Bible principles and put first the doing of God’s will. We do not enrich God by serving him; he teaches us ‘to benefit ourselves.’ (Isa. 48:17) The Bible counsels: “Become steadfast, unmovable, always having plenty to do in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in connection with the Lord.”—1 Cor. 15:58.
The Bible sets before us the prospect of eternal life in perfection if we put faith in Jehovah’s provisions for life and walk in his ways. That hope is solidly based; it will not lead to disappointment; activity in harmony with that hope can fill our lives with real meaning even now.—John 3:16; Titus 1:2; 1 Pet. 2:6.
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dianaiad
Guest
Yes. I would imagine that “proper place and time” would include when the person was ready to hear it (correct motivation.)
Ok, I get all this; we are here to get closer to God, to obey Him, to do God’s will. This is actually a rather typical Christian answer, almost everything you have mentioned. At least, most people would agree to this.
I guess the question I want to ask is regarding the question the above answers beg: why does God bother? That is, we know (or have faith) in what God wants us to do, but…
why does He want us to do it? He has created us, and he has created us considerably less than perfect. Why?
What I am saying here is that the answers you are giving me all deal with the what we are supposed to do, and the rewards we get (and don’t deserve) for doing them. I don’t see an explanation for the ultimate ‘why.’
Let me give you an imperfect analogy: almost every day I see a kid on a corner waving a sign around. It could be a sign aiming drivers at a housing development, or a tax preparation office, or a used car lot, or??? Whatever, there the kid is. If you ask him why he is there, he will probably tell you that he is there because he was paid to be there; his sign points to where hie boss wants those who see the sign to go.
But is that really why he is there?
Why is THIS KID there, instead of, oh, surfing, or in class, or working somewhere that actually pays decent money? Why does the boss think his being there will help him?
That’s what I’m after; not the list of tasks and rewards that we think about all the time, but the deeper ‘why?’
Why are we here? I mean, really; why are WE here? Why are we HERE?
by the way, “I haven’t got a clue, God hasn’t told us,” is a perfectly valid answer.
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dj_dave
Guest
1 Pet. 3:18: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit “by the Spirit,” KJ; “in the spirit,” RS, NE, Dy, JB].” (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)
1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam [Jesus Christ, who we believe was perfect as was Adam when created] became a life-giving spirit.” (God’s perfect justice demanded Life for life…“eye for eye” not “leg for finger”–so perfect man for perfect man. Not God man for perfect man)
. At the institution of the “Last Supper”, Jesus offered the unfermented bread to the 11 faithful apostles, saying: “This means* my body which is to be given in your behalf.” (Lu 22:19) The apostle Peter later said: “He [Jesus] himself bore our sins in his own body upon the stake.”—1Pe 2:24; Heb 10:10; * (The same Gr. word at Matthew 12:7)
In order for Jesus to be “the last Adam” (1Co 15:45) and to be “a corresponding ransom for all [mankind],” his fleshly body had to be a real human body, no incarnation. (1Ti 2:5, 6; Mt 20:28) It had to be perfect, for it was to be sacrificed to present to Jehovah God the purchase price. (1Pe 1:18, 19; Heb 9:14) No imperfect human could provide the needed price.
(Ps 49:7-9) 7 "Not one of them can by any means redeem even a brother,
Nor give to God a ransom for him;
8 (And the redemption price of their soul is so precious
That it has ceased to time indefinite)
9 That he should still live forever [and] not see the pit.
After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared in different bodies. Mary mistook him for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15) He again appeared, entering a room with locked doors, having a body with wound marks. (Joh 20:24-29) Several times he manifested himself and was recognized, not by his appearance, but by his words and actions. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18) Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity. (Joh 21:4-7, 12) Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1, 12; Jos 5:13, 14; Jg 13:3, 6; Heb 13:2)
For this reason Jesus said to his Father when presenting himself for baptism, to begin his sacrificial course: “You prepared a body for me.”—Heb 10:5.
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dj_dave
Guest
Okay, we’re here to learn the McCarrena!!!–there I said it!!
Consider: HAVE we ever thought about what is implied by the expressions “the Creator of the heavens,” also, “God, who created all things”? Those expressions imply that there was a time when God was all alone. (Isaiah 42:5; Ephesians 3:9) No creation existed. So for an eternal past this God was all by himself and he had not yet become a Creator. That is why the prophet Moses said in prayer to God: “Before mountains were born or earth and universe came to the pangs of birth, and from eternity to eternity, you are Deity.” (Psalm 90:2, Byington’s translation) During all that eternal past before creation God was able to enjoy Himself.
We belive the time came when God purposed to become a Father. This did not mean to become the Creator of lifeless things, unintelligent things. It meant to give existence to living intelligences, to sons with some likeness to him their Father. Thus he purposed to take upon Himself the responsibility of a family of children. What kind of sons did He purpose to produce first? Not human sons, for in that case he would have had to produce first an earthly globe upon which they could live. Reasonably, God would produce sons who, like Himself, are heavenly, being spirit just as He is spirit. Thus they would be spirit sons, who could see him and have direct access into His presence and with whom he could communicate directly.
The Holy Scriptures divide up these heavenly “sons of God” into at least three classes. The first of these classes to be mentioned is that of the “cherubs.” Genesis 3:24… another classification of the heavenly “sons of God” is that of the seraphs. (Isa 6:2)…and of course, angels in general.
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Now, a true father produces a family because he loves children. He has no desire to make fiends or devils out of them or to get any satisfaction out of torturing and tormenting them. He has their highest interests at heart. He wants to find pleasure in them because they reflect his image and are a credit to him and give him due respect and obedience. Long ago, under divine inspiration, a king who was himself a father of many children said: “A wise son is the one that makes a father rejoice.” “The father of a righteous one will without fail be joyful; the one becoming father to a wise one will also rejoice in him.”—Proverbs 10:1; 23:24.Do you have children? Do you not love to watch them ‘enjoy’ surprises?
Even when they’re young—they see their first butterfly! They look back at you and say Mom, look! and a smile comes across your face you can see for miles! REMEMBER, we are made in God’s image–that means we have his qualities to love as he does.
Do you enjoy giving to your children?
…this is why we are here because “God is Love” 1 Jo 4:8
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dj_dave
Guest
I know this was posted a while back–but, where does the def. of cult come from?
Where does it say a person has to believe in the Trinity?
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zerinus
Guest
Thank you. I do recall from my reading that that is another peculiar teaching of the JWs. They don’t believe in an immortal soul or spirit in man. For this reason they also have a very strange idea of death and the resurrection. They believe that when you die, your identity or personal consciousness vanishes into nothing. The only thing that remains is the material body which returns to the dust. Resurrection simply consists of the reconstitution of the physical body, and the personal identity that accompanies it. That of course is not borne out by the scriptures.
In the Old Testament, Ecclesiastes 12:7 teaches: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”. Okay, you can interpret that to mean something different; but then how do you account for the case of Samuel being called up from the dead to communicate with Saul? (1 Samuel 28:7-14.) If he had no immortal spirit or soul, how could it be called up from the dead to converse with Saul?
Moving up to the New Testament, we have more good examples of the immortality of the soul. While on the cross, Jesus said to the thief that was crucified alongside Him, “Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). If the thief on the cross didn’t have an immortal soul or spirit, how could be with Jesus in paradise after both of them had died? Case of the rich man and beggar who died is another good example. It is a bit lengthy, but all of it is significant, so I am going to quote it in full:
Luke 16:
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
The above scenario would not be possible if man had no immortal soul or spirit that survived him after death. In John 5:28 the Lord declared: “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice”. How could the dead “hear His voice” if they had no immortal spirit? When Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection, they were frightened, because they thought they had seen His spirit; but Jesus replied: “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:39). So the disciples expected Jesus to have an immortal spirit (like any other man), which could have appeared to them after death; and Jesus by His remarks confirms that. To the Jews who questioned the resurrection Jesus replied:
Mark 12:
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
At the time that God had spoken those words to Moses, Abraham had long since died and buried. So if God is the God of the living and not of the dead, and He was the God of Abraham, then Abraham must still have been alive, otherwise God would have been the God the dead, not of the living! So how could Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob still be alive long after they were dead, unless it was their spirits which were still alive in the spirit world? There are still more scriptures that could be given; but these are sufficient to prove my point.
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dianaiad
Guest
Oh, now that one begs a question I’m not all that certain I want answered.
OK, you have given your explanation for why God created angels, et al. Thank you. That sounds reasonable within the context of your faith as you have explained it so far.
But you sorta skipped the part about why He created us. In fact, you specifically stated that if He wanted children, he would NOT have created us.
So.
Why are we here? If He created the angels, et al, to be His children, why did He create us, instead of more angels, seraphim
I know. I’m pushing. It’s not because I want to be mean or annoying. It’s because I want to understand what your basic reasoning is, as a Jehovah’s Witness. Thanks for your patience.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
What is Parker doing is he not Mormon
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dianaiad
Guest
Yes, he is Mormon.
Don’t you know what he’s doing?
Well, me, neither. We won’t know what he’s doing until he actually sits at his computer and types a note telling us what he’s doing.
Of course, even then we won’t know what he is doing, just what he was doing while he was typing his response telling us what he is doing.
Perhaps he could write and tell us what he is going to be doing for the half hour or so after he posts his response, and then, (if we trust him to keep his word, and I have no reason to think he wouldn’t, do you?) we will know precisely what he is doing for at least a little bit.
So.
Parker.
What are you doing?
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dj_dave
Guest
Simply put, he LOVES to create. If something didn’t go wrong in Eden. He would still be creating elsewhere. Remember the joy of the angels when the earth was created? Job 38:6 Jehovah LOVES to watch his ‘childern’ enjoy HIS works…Because of the fall,he had to bring about a way to bridge the gap between his Creation man and Himself–enter the Kingdom and Jesus perfect Sacrifice notice how this is spoken of at Ephesians 1:8-10 ...*This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10 for an *administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. * *, “house administration; household management.” Gr., oi·ko·no·mi′an; Lat., di·spen·sa·ti·o′nem.Oh, now that one begs a question I’m not all that certain I want answered.
OK, you have given your explanation for why God created angels, et al. Thank you. That sounds reasonable within the context of your faith as you have explained it so far.
But you sorta skipped the part about why He created us. In fact, you specifically stated that if He wanted children, he would NOT have created us.
So.
Why are we here? If He created the angels, et al, to be His children, why did He create us, instead of more angels, seraphim
I know. I’m pushing. It’s not because I want to be mean or annoying. It’s because I want to understand what your basic reasoning is, as a Jehovah’s Witness. Thanks for your patience.
There was no need to pray for a “kingdom to come” (Government see Isa 9:6) until Adam willfully sinned.
Is this too simple for you to accept? He LOVES to create. NOW he wants that Kingdom Preached throughout the entire earth for a witness to all nations and then the end (of Wickedness) will come. Matt 24:14…that work is almost done. Jehovah’s Witnesses have placed over 13 billion Bibles and Bible aids in upwards of 400 languages.
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dianaiad
Guest
Oh, heavens…don’t worry about making things too simple for me to accept. The simpler the better.
Of course, that’s a little disingenuous of me. It is a great deal harder to boil down a concept to an accurate simple statement than it is to meander all over the place attempting to cover all the minutia.
Attempting to do so, however, is also extremely good for the mind. I read once that 'imminent death clarifies the thinking process greatly." Well, trying to express a complex thought simply does the same thing, a bit less lethally.
So…basically, our purpose here is to be the object and recipient of God’s wish to create?
We are here for His amusement (ok, that may be the wrong word…) purposes?
Gotcha. Thank you.
Wanna try the next question, or have I scared you off?
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dj_dave
Guest
I’m ready. I’m tired–but I’m ready to consider it.Oh, heavens…don’t worry about making things too simple for me to accept. The simpler the better.
Of course, that’s a little disingenuous of me. It is a great deal harder to boil down a concept to an accurate simple statement than it is to meander all over the place attempting to cover all the minutia.
Attempting to do so, however, is also extremely good for the mind. I read once that 'imminent death clarifies the thinking process greatly." Well, trying to express a complex thought simply does the same thing, a bit less lethally.
So…basically, our purpose here is to be the object and recipient of God’s wish to create?
We are here for His amusement (ok, that may be the wrong word…) purposes?
Gotcha. Thank you.
Wanna try the next question, or have I scared you off?
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dj_dave
Guest
In the Old Testament, Ecclesiastes 12:7 teaches: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”. ]
Lots to talk about. Let’s start with: In the Old Testament, Ecclesiastes 12:7 teaches: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.
So man’s death is linked with the spirit’s returning to God, this indicating that man’s life in some way depends upon that spirit.
In the original-language text of Ecclesiastes 12:7, the Hebrew word translated “spirit” or “life breath” is ru′ahh. The corresponding Greek term is pneu′ma. While our life does depend on the breathing process, the English word “breath” (as numerous translators often render the words ru′ahh and pneu′ma) is not always a suitable alternate translation for “spirit.” Furthermore, other Hebrew and Greek words, namely, ne•sha•mah′ (Hebrew) and pno•e′ (Greek), are also translated as “breath.” (See Genesis 2:7 and Acts 17:25.)
At Ecclesiastes 3:19 the same basic point is made in connection with death: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit [ru′ahh], so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast.” Accordingly, man is not superior to animals when it comes to the spirit animating his body. The same invisible spirit or life-force is common to both.
Similarly, both humans and animals “have but one spirit,” one activating force. Notice also, in the case of brain cells, the spirit does not retain the information stored there and continue thought processes apart from these cells. The Bible tells us: “His spirit [ru′ahh] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:4.
King James Bible
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
American King James Version
His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
American Standard Version
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Thus, at Genesis 7:22, in describing the destruction of human and animal life outside the ark at the time of the Flood, we read: “Everything in which the breath [form of nesha•mah′] of the force [or, “spirit” (ru′ach)] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” Nesha•mah′, “breath,” is thus directly associated or linked with ru′ach, which here describes the spirit, or life-force, that is active in all living creatures—human and animal souls.
That man’s life depends on the spirit (ru′ahh or pneu′ma) is definitely stated in the Bible. We read: “If you [Jehovah] take away their spirit [ru′ahh], they expire, and back to their dust they go.” (Psalm 104:29) “The body without spirit [pneu′ma] is dead.” (James 2:26) Hence, the spirit is that which animates the body. , the return of the ru′ahh or spirit to God simply could not mean the continuance of conscious existence. The spirit does not continue human thought processes. It is only a life-force that has no conscious existence apart from a body.
How, then, does this invisible, impersonal force or spirit return to God?
The way in which the Bible uses the word “return” does not require that we, in each case, think of an actual movement from one place to another. For instance, unfaithful Israelites were told: “‘Return to me, and I will return to you,’ Jehovah of armies has said.” (Malachi 3:7) Obviously this did not mean that the Israelites were to leave the earth and come into the very presence of God. Nor did it mean that God would leave the heavens and begin dwelling on earth with the Israelites. Rather, Israel’s “returning” to Jehovah meant a turning around --conforming to God’s righteous way. And Jehovah’s “returning” to Israel meant his turning favorable attention to his people once again. In both cases the return involved an attitude, not a literal movement from one geographical location to another.
it might be illustrated by what happens in a transferal of a business or a property from the control of one party to another. For example, in a certain country the control of the railroads might be shifted from the hands of private enterprise to those of the government. When such a transferal takes place, the railroad equipment and even all the records may remain where they are. It is the authority over them that changes hands.
The situation might also be compared to that of an accused man who says to a judge, ‘My life is in your hands.’ He means that what will become of his life rests with the judge. The accused has no choice in the matter. It is out of his hands.Similarly, in the case of a dead man, he does not have control over his spirit or life-force. It has returned to God in the sense that he controls the future life prospects of the individual. It is up to God to decide as to whether he will restore the spirit or life-force to the deceased.
Ecclesiastes 9:5) 5*For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,
And finaly (Psalm 104:29-30) 29 If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, And back to their dust they go. 30 If you send forth your spirit, they are created; And you make the face of the ground new.
Next “but then how do you account for the case of Samuel being called up from the dead to communicate with Saul? (1 Samuel 28:7-14.) If he had no immortal spirit or soul, how could it be called up from the dead to converse with Saul?”
Lots to talk about. Let’s start with: In the Old Testament, Ecclesiastes 12:7 teaches: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.
So man’s death is linked with the spirit’s returning to God, this indicating that man’s life in some way depends upon that spirit.
In the original-language text of Ecclesiastes 12:7, the Hebrew word translated “spirit” or “life breath” is ru′ahh. The corresponding Greek term is pneu′ma. While our life does depend on the breathing process, the English word “breath” (as numerous translators often render the words ru′ahh and pneu′ma) is not always a suitable alternate translation for “spirit.” Furthermore, other Hebrew and Greek words, namely, ne•sha•mah′ (Hebrew) and pno•e′ (Greek), are also translated as “breath.” (See Genesis 2:7 and Acts 17:25.)
At Ecclesiastes 3:19 the same basic point is made in connection with death: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit [ru′ahh], so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast.” Accordingly, man is not superior to animals when it comes to the spirit animating his body. The same invisible spirit or life-force is common to both.
Similarly, both humans and animals “have but one spirit,” one activating force. Notice also, in the case of brain cells, the spirit does not retain the information stored there and continue thought processes apart from these cells. The Bible tells us: “His spirit [ru′ahh] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”—Psalm 146:4.
King James Bible
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
American King James Version
His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
American Standard Version
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.
Thus, at Genesis 7:22, in describing the destruction of human and animal life outside the ark at the time of the Flood, we read: “Everything in which the breath [form of nesha•mah′] of the force [or, “spirit” (ru′ach)] of life was active in its nostrils, namely, all that were on the dry ground, died.” Nesha•mah′, “breath,” is thus directly associated or linked with ru′ach, which here describes the spirit, or life-force, that is active in all living creatures—human and animal souls.
That man’s life depends on the spirit (ru′ahh or pneu′ma) is definitely stated in the Bible. We read: “If you [Jehovah] take away their spirit [ru′ahh], they expire, and back to their dust they go.” (Psalm 104:29) “The body without spirit [pneu′ma] is dead.” (James 2:26) Hence, the spirit is that which animates the body. , the return of the ru′ahh or spirit to God simply could not mean the continuance of conscious existence. The spirit does not continue human thought processes. It is only a life-force that has no conscious existence apart from a body.
How, then, does this invisible, impersonal force or spirit return to God?
The way in which the Bible uses the word “return” does not require that we, in each case, think of an actual movement from one place to another. For instance, unfaithful Israelites were told: “‘Return to me, and I will return to you,’ Jehovah of armies has said.” (Malachi 3:7) Obviously this did not mean that the Israelites were to leave the earth and come into the very presence of God. Nor did it mean that God would leave the heavens and begin dwelling on earth with the Israelites. Rather, Israel’s “returning” to Jehovah meant a turning around --conforming to God’s righteous way. And Jehovah’s “returning” to Israel meant his turning favorable attention to his people once again. In both cases the return involved an attitude, not a literal movement from one geographical location to another.
it might be illustrated by what happens in a transferal of a business or a property from the control of one party to another. For example, in a certain country the control of the railroads might be shifted from the hands of private enterprise to those of the government. When such a transferal takes place, the railroad equipment and even all the records may remain where they are. It is the authority over them that changes hands.
The situation might also be compared to that of an accused man who says to a judge, ‘My life is in your hands.’ He means that what will become of his life rests with the judge. The accused has no choice in the matter. It is out of his hands.Similarly, in the case of a dead man, he does not have control over his spirit or life-force. It has returned to God in the sense that he controls the future life prospects of the individual. It is up to God to decide as to whether he will restore the spirit or life-force to the deceased.
Ecclesiastes 9:5) 5*For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all,And finaly (Psalm 104:29-30) 29 If you conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, And back to their dust they go. 30 If you send forth your spirit, they are created; And you make the face of the ground new.
Next “but then how do you account for the case of Samuel being called up from the dead to communicate with Saul? (1 Samuel 28:7-14.) If he had no immortal spirit or soul, how could it be called up from the dead to converse with Saul?”
D
dj_dave
Guest
…but then how do you account for the case of Samuel being called up from the dead to communicate with Saul? (1 Samuel 28:7-14.) If he had no immortal spirit or soul, how could it be called up from the dead to converse with Saul?
A little background for the other readers… because of his unfaithfulness to Jehovah God, King Saul was cut off from divine direction for carrying out his responsibilities. Therefore, when the Philistines came to wage war against him, in desperation he sought help from a spirit medium. He asked her to bring up the dead prophet Samuel.
1 Samuel 28:12-15.
Was Saul, in this case, actually brought in touch with the dead prophet Samuel? How could this be, for the Bible links silence, not talking, with death? We read: “The dead themselves do not praise Jah [Jehovah], nor do any going down into silence.”—Psalm 115:17.
We believe other passages of the Holy Scriptures shed light on the matter.
First, it is clear Zerinus that what Saul did in consulting a spirit medium was a violation of God’s law. Both spirit mediums and those consulting them were judged guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:6, 27) God’s law to Israel stated: “Do not turn yourselves to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of events, so as to become unclean by them.” (Leviticus 19:31) “When you are entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. There should not be found in you . . . anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead.”—Deuteronomy 18:9-11; Isaiah 8:19, 20.
Against this background, consider the case of Saul. Regarding divine communication with him, Saul acknowledged: “God himself has departed from me and has answered me no more, either by means of the prophets or by dreams; so that I am calling you [Samuel] to let me know what I shall do.” (1 Samuel 28:15) Should anyone really believe God would allow a spirit medium to get around this divine cutoff of communication by getting in touch with a dead prophet and having him deliver a message from God to Saul? Then, too, during the latter part of his life, Samuel himself, a faithful prophet of God, had ceased to have any dealings whatsoever with Saul. Would it not be unreasonable, therefore, to conclude that Samuel was willing to speak with Saul by means of a spirit medium, an arrangement that was condemned by God?
Who was this person? A demon pretending to be Samuel… (2 Corinthians 11:14-15) 14* “And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.”*
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) 9 "But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.“
Question for YOU…How do you explaun Eccl. 9:5?
A little background for the other readers… because of his unfaithfulness to Jehovah God, King Saul was cut off from divine direction for carrying out his responsibilities. Therefore, when the Philistines came to wage war against him, in desperation he sought help from a spirit medium. He asked her to bring up the dead prophet Samuel.
1 Samuel 28:12-15.
Was Saul, in this case, actually brought in touch with the dead prophet Samuel? How could this be, for the Bible links silence, not talking, with death? We read: “The dead themselves do not praise Jah [Jehovah], nor do any going down into silence.”—Psalm 115:17.
We believe other passages of the Holy Scriptures shed light on the matter.
First, it is clear Zerinus that what Saul did in consulting a spirit medium was a violation of God’s law. Both spirit mediums and those consulting them were judged guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:6, 27) God’s law to Israel stated: “Do not turn yourselves to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of events, so as to become unclean by them.” (Leviticus 19:31) “When you are entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. There should not be found in you . . . anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead.”—Deuteronomy 18:9-11; Isaiah 8:19, 20.
Against this background, consider the case of Saul. Regarding divine communication with him, Saul acknowledged: “God himself has departed from me and has answered me no more, either by means of the prophets or by dreams; so that I am calling you [Samuel] to let me know what I shall do.” (1 Samuel 28:15) Should anyone really believe God would allow a spirit medium to get around this divine cutoff of communication by getting in touch with a dead prophet and having him deliver a message from God to Saul? Then, too, during the latter part of his life, Samuel himself, a faithful prophet of God, had ceased to have any dealings whatsoever with Saul. Would it not be unreasonable, therefore, to conclude that Samuel was willing to speak with Saul by means of a spirit medium, an arrangement that was condemned by God?
Who was this person? A demon pretending to be Samuel… (2 Corinthians 11:14-15) 14* “And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.”*
(2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) 9 "But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.“
Question for YOU…How do you explaun Eccl. 9:5?
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