LDS and JW's

[Dan_Parker]

No, I think you are being a bit pedantic with that one. “Will” here means all time, not just the future. In the Ten Commandments it also says “Thou shalt not kill”. By your logic that is talking about killing in the future, therefore it is okay to kill now!

Dan:
Please don’t be offended, but you are mangling the text. The verb there is a command in the subjunctive and is equivalent to “Do not do this or that.” It is not a simple future and is not related at all either grammatically or contextually to the text in Romans.

KJV James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. {he that: or, that law which}

 

[PRmerger]

Are you aware that the Greek language has a particular verbal mood called the Imperative and that Jesus used this in Matt 28:19-20? It is not merely my opinion that this is a command. The Greek Imperative in this context can only be interpreted as a forceful command in the Greek language. Jesus chose the particular form of the verb that mandates it is a command.

I challenged you to prove that the other statements of Jesus should be considered as much of a priority as this command. You did not do this. I will await your reply.

Dan

Ok. So here’s some more verses which use the Greek Imperative, per your fellow JW, djdave, as well as those you cited in the other thread:

Mark 2:14 Follow me!

Mark 6:37 Give them [something] to eat.
Matt. 1:20, 23; 2:1, 8f, 13, 19f; 3:2f, 8, 15ff; 4:3, 6, 10f, 17, 19; 5:12, 16, 24f, 29ff, 37, 39ff, 44; 6:1, 3, 6, 9ff, 16f, 19f, 25f, 28, 33; 7:1, 4f, 7, 12f, 15, 23; 8:2ff, 8f, 13, 21f, 24f, 29, 31f, 34; 9:2f, 5f,

So, it’s not just the use of the Imperative that tells you that something has primacy. (See all those verses you cited which also use the Imperative yet are not given primacy by JWs)

Again, Dan, what tells you that the Great Commission is the greatest of all of Jesus’ commands?

It can’t be that it’s in the Imperative mood, as there are indeed other commands of Jesus that are in the Imperative.
It can’t be because the Great Commission invokes “heaven and hell” (where does Scripture tell us that verses that talk about heaven and hell are given primacy?)
**It can’t be **that it transcends time, for what verse tells us that commands that discuss time are more essential?

 

[zerinus]

Sorry Dan, I think you are just nitpicking. The scripture says “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified”. That is equivalent to saying, “For not the hearers of the law are saved, but the doers of the law shall be saved”. Now whether it says “shall” or “will” or “are” it makes no difference to the underlying meaning of the message. That is just a ridiculous objection to bring.

As for the verse that says, “no man cometh unto the Father, but by me,” there is also a verse that says, “every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God” (Romans 14:11). All will eventually acknowledge Him, in this life or in the next. But what gets you saved in the end is doing what God wants you to do, not just hearing it, or confessing it: “He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God” (Micah 6:8); “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say” (Luke 6:46). If you hear of Jesus in this life and knowingly reject Him (especially if the Holy Ghost witnesses to you of Him), then you are going to have a problem. But nobody goes to hell if he does what is right in his life, even if he has never heard of Jesus Christ.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

It is by knowing and accepting Jesus that one is saved, not by ignorance of or ambivalence towards him. Read John 17:3 and John 14:6 and harmonize them with Paul, not excise them from the text by means of your interpretation of Paul.

I’ve read my issues of Watchtower and Awake, and it seems to me that (1) 144,000 special people go to heaven; (2) JW’s experience “heaven on earth” after the final judgment; and (3) everybody else ceases to exist upon death, no matter how virtuously they may have lived their lives.

Impossible! John the Baptist and Moses and Elijah (who was with our Lord at the Transfiguration, glorified!) simply “ceased to be”? Our Catechism has this to say about “Outside the Church there is no salvation”:

*847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
338 AG 7; cf. ⇒ Heb 11:6; ⇒ 1 Cor 9:16.*

Right, so I’m not going to persuade you by quoting the Catechism or Papal Encyclicals, but look at what the Bible itself has to say:

Rom 9:4-5:
They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 11:25-29.
I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

In other words, nobody can say for sure who does and does not figure into God’s plan for salvation. But the Patriarchs and John the Baptist? – I’d say its more than likely that they do.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Ok. So here’s some more verses which use the Greek Imperative, per your fellow JW, djdave, as well as those you cited in the other thread:

Mark 2:14 Follow me!

Mark 6:37 Give them [something] to eat.
Matt. 1:20, 23; 2:1, 8f, 13, 19f; 3:2f, 8, 15ff; 4:3, 6, 10f, 17, 19; 5:12, 16, 24f, 29ff, 37, 39ff, 44; 6:1, 3, 6, 9ff, 16f, 19f, 25f, 28, 33; 7:1, 4f, 7, 12f, 15, 23; 8:2ff, 8f, 13, 21f, 24f, 29, 31f, 34; 9:2f, 5f,

So, it’s not just the use of the Imperative that tells you that something has primacy. (See all those verses you cited which also use the Imperative yet are not given primacy by JWs)

Again, Dan, what tells you that the Great Commission is the greatest of all of Jesus’ commands?

It can’t be that it’s in the Imperative mood, as there are indeed other commands of Jesus that are in the Imperative.
It can’t be because the Great Commission invokes “heaven and hell” (where does Scripture tell us that verses that talk about heaven and hell are given primacy?)
**It can’t be **that it transcends time, for what verse tells us that commands that discuss time are more essential?

I never denied there were not commands of Jesus in the Imperative. I have two points to make:

1. The context of this discussion is why Jehovah's Witnesses do not allow a secular vocation to supersede or irradicate our ministry.

2. It was not just the Imperative tense to which I appealed when I represented the commission as a serious command that every professed Christian should obey. You are focusing in on just one aspect of my argument.

I believe I already made these points in the other thread and you agreed to accept my explanation as to how to understand my words in context. Please don’t attempt to take isolated sentences I write out of context. I have just explained why I said what I said.

This is my last word on this subject.

Dan

 

[PRmerger]

This is my last word on this subject.

Dan

As you wish, Dan.

However, after this discussion you ought to think twice about making the claim that the Great (not Greatest) Commission is Jesus’ greatest command and supercedes all others.

As I have shown, *there is no Scriptural evidence *for that statement.

 

[dj_dave]

I’ve read my issues of Watchtower and Awake, and it seems to me that (1) 144,000 special people go to heaven; (2) JW’s experience “heaven on earth” after the final judgment; and (3) everybody else ceases to exist upon death, no matter how virtuously they may have lived their lives.

*Impossible! John the Baptist and Moses and Elijah (who was with our Lord at the Transfiguration, glorified!) simply “ceased to be”? * Our Catechism has this to say about “Outside the Church there is no salvation”:
END QUOTE

Answer:Some critics have endeavored to class the transfiguration as simply a dream. However, Peter, James, and John would not logically all have had exactly the same dream. Jesus himself called what took place **a “vision” **(Mt 17:9), but not a mere illusion. Christ was actually there, though Moses and Elijah, who were dead, were not literally present. ( Eccl 9:5,10; Ps 13:3;Jo 11:11; Matt 9:24; Acts 7:60) They were represented in vision. The Greek word used for “vision” at Matthew 17:9 is ho′ra·ma, also rendered “sight.” (Ac 7:31) It does not imply unreality, as though the observers were laboring under a delusion. Nor were they insensible to what occurred, for they were fully awake when witnessing the transfiguration. With their literal eyes and ears they actually saw and heard what took place at that time.—Lu 9:32.

As Moses and Elijah were being separated from Jesus, Peter, “not realizing what he was saying,” (**–Why would Luke say this?)*suggested the erecting of three tents, one each for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. (Lu 9:33) But as the apostle spoke, a cloud formed (Lu 9:34), evidently (as at the tent of meeting in the wilderness) symbolizing Jehovah’s presence there on the mountain of the transfiguration. (Ex 40:34-38) *From out of the cloud there came Jehovah’s voice, saying: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.” (Lu 9:35)

Years later, with reference to the transfiguration, Peter identified the heavenly voice as that of “God the Father.” (2Pe 1:17,*18) In the transfiguration, **evidently Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which pointed toward and were fulfilled in Christ. **Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.—Ga 3:24; Heb 1:1-3.

The apostle Peter viewed the transfiguration as a marvelous confirmation of the prophetic word, and by having been an eyewitness of Christ’s magnificence, he was able to acquaint his readers “with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2Pe 1:16,*19) The apostle had experienced the fulfillment of Christ’s promise that some of his followers would “not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Mr 9:1) The apostle John may also have alluded to the transfiguration at John 1:14.

Jesus told his three apostles: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.” (Mt 17:9) They did refrain from then reporting what they saw to anyone, apparently even to the other apostles. (Lu 9:36) While descending the mountain, the three apostles discussed among themselves what Jesus meant by “this rising from the dead.” (Mr 9:10) One current Jewish religious teaching was that Elijah must appear before the resurrection of the dead that would inaugurate the Messiah’s reign. So, the apostles inquired: “Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus assured them that Elijah had come, and they perceived that he spoke of John the Baptizer.—Mt 17:10-13.

The transfiguration, it seems, served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. It showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a foreview of his future glory and Kingdom power. It presaged the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete.

 

[Dan_Parker]

As you wish, Dan.

However, after this discussion you ought to think twice about making the claim that the Great (not Greatest) Commission is Jesus’ greatest command and supercedes all others.

As I have shown, *there is no Scriptural evidence *for that statement.

It appears that when you said you accepted my clarification on this subject in this post that you had your fingers crossed.

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

I’ve read my issues of Watchtower and Awake, and it seems to me that (1) 144,000 special people go to heaven; (2) JW’s experience “heaven on earth” after the final judgment; and (3) everybody else ceases to exist upon death, no matter how virtuously they may have lived their lives.

Impossible! John the Baptist and Moses and Elijah (who was with our Lord at the Transfiguration, glorified!) simply “ceased to be”? Our Catechism has this to say about “Outside the Church there is no salvation”:

*847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
338 AG 7; cf. ⇒ Heb 11:6; ⇒ 1 Cor 9:16.*

Right, so I’m not going to persuade you by quoting the Catechism or Papal Encyclicals, but look at what the Bible itself has to say:

Rom 9:4-5:
They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 11:25-29.
I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

In other words, nobody can say for sure who does and does not figure into God’s plan for salvation. But the Patriarchs and John the Baptist? – I’d say its more than likely that they do.

Your understanding of JW theology is not 100% accurate.

1. You are correct that we interpret the 144,000 (Rev. 7:4; 14:1, 3) from the book of Revelation as those who rule with Christ as kings in heaven (Rev 20:6). As such they have subjects on earth. (Psalms 37:11)
2. You say JWs experience heaven on earth after the final judgment. It is true that a group called the Great Crowd in the book of Revelation survive Armageddon are distinguished from the 144,000 who are in heaven. (Rev. 7:4,9) It is not true that we consider this to be heaven on earth. It would be more like a restoration of the Garden of Eden on earth.
3. You say everyone else ceases to exist and spend the majority of your post refuting this notion. However Jehovah’s Witnesses do not teach that no one else is saved except for the 144,000 and earthly survivors of Armageddon. This is because there will be a resurrection from the dead. Since the only sin that will not be forgiven is blasphemy against the holy spirit (NWT Luke 12:10 And everyone that says a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but he that blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven it) it is likely that the majority of those who have died will be resurrected and have the opportunity to worship Jehovah forever. (John 5:25)

Dan

 

[dj_dave]

As you wish, Dan.

However, after this discussion you ought to think twice about making the claim that the Great (not Greatest) Commission is Jesus’ greatest command and supercedes all others.

As I have shown, *there is no Scriptural evidence *for that statement.

Just a thought…What was the last command Jesus gave before ascending to heaven?

Your answer has to be "(Matthew 28:18-20) . 19**Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”*

Now lets think about priority–he said to make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. true but in order to do these things and more importantly–he said “go!” so “go” is the more necessary (that is MORE IMPORTANT IN PRIORITY) than “*make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU”. And, * Why? because they can not make 1 disciple, they cannot baptize 1 person, they cannot teach 1 person to observe all the things he had commanded them…unless they first “GO!”
DO THEY NOT first have to leave the area he ascended from? Now what command do *you *say is more important?

 

[zerinus]

Nyarlathotep;5627344:

I’ve read my issues of Watchtower and Awake, and it seems to me that (1) 144,000 special people go to heaven; (2) JW’s experience “heaven on earth” after the final judgment; and (3) everybody else ceases to exist upon death, no matter how virtuously they may have lived their lives.

*Impossible! John the Baptist and Moses and Elijah (who was with our Lord at the Transfiguration, glorified!) simply “ceased to be”? *

Our Catechism has this to say about “Outside the Church there is no salvation”:
END QUOTE

Answer:Some critics have endeavored to class the transfiguration as simply a dream. However, Peter, James, and John would not logically all have had exactly the same dream. Jesus himself called what took place **a “vision” **(Mt 17:9), but not a mere illusion. Christ was actually there, though Moses and Elijah, who were dead, were not literally present. ( Eccl 9:5,10; Ps 13:3;Jo 11:11; Matt 9:24; Acts 7:60) They were represented in vision. The Greek word used for “vision” at Matthew 17:9 is ho′ra·ma, also rendered “sight.” (Ac 7:31) It does not imply unreality, as though the observers were laboring under a delusion. Nor were they insensible to what occurred, for they were fully awake when witnessing the transfiguration. With their literal eyes and ears they actually saw and heard what took place at that time.—Lu 9:32.

As Moses and Elijah were being separated from Jesus, Peter, “not realizing what he was saying,” (**–Why would Luke say this?)*suggested the erecting of three tents, one each for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. (Lu 9:33) But as the apostle spoke, a cloud formed (Lu 9:34), evidently (as at the tent of meeting in the wilderness) symbolizing Jehovah’s presence there on the mountain of the transfiguration. (Ex 40:34-38) *From out of the cloud there came Jehovah’s voice, saying: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.” (Lu 9:35)

Years later, with reference to the transfiguration, Peter identified the heavenly voice as that of “God the Father.” (2Pe 1:17,*18) In the transfiguration, **evidently Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which pointed toward and were fulfilled in Christ. **Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.—Ga 3:24; Heb 1:1-3.

The apostle Peter viewed the transfiguration as a marvelous confirmation of the prophetic word, and by having been an eyewitness of Christ’s magnificence, he was able to acquaint his readers “with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2Pe 1:16,*19) The apostle had experienced the fulfillment of Christ’s promise that some of his followers would “not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Mr 9:1) The apostle John may also have alluded to the transfiguration at John 1:14.

Jesus told his three apostles: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.” (Mt 17:9) They did refrain from then reporting what they saw to anyone, apparently even to the other apostles. (Lu 9:36) While descending the mountain, the three apostles discussed among themselves what Jesus meant by “this rising from the dead.” (Mr 9:10) One current Jewish religious teaching was that Elijah must appear before the resurrection of the dead that would inaugurate the Messiah’s reign. So, the apostles inquired: “Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus assured them that Elijah had come, and they perceived that he spoke of John the Baptizer.—Mt 17:10-13.

The transfiguration, it seems, served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. It showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a foreview of his future glory and Kingdom power. It presaged the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete.

According to the Old Testament, at least one of those two people, Elijah, never died at all, but was taken to heaven without tasting death (2 Kings 2:11). So he wasn’t even dead! What should have prevented him from appearing in person at that vision? And in any case, according to the report of the vision, Jesus was conversing with Moses and Elijah. So Jesus was conversing with whom? with a phantom? And what was He saying to them? How do you hold a conversation with a phantom—unless you had gone out of your mind of course!

 

[Dan_Parker]

dj dave;5629076:

According to the Old Testament, at least one of those two people, Elijah, never died at all, but was taken to heaven without tasting death (2 Kings 2:11). So he wasn’t even dead! What should have prevented him

from appearing in person at that vision? And in any case, according to the report of the vision, Jesus was conversing with Moses and Elijah. So Jesus was conversing with whom? with a phantom? And what was He saying to them? How do you hold a conversation with a phantom—unless you had gone out of your mind of course!

What bible version do you have that says Elijah did not taste death? What I read is:

KJV 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You assume heaven here means the abode of God. However the word also means the place where birds fly as well.

Dan

 

[PRmerger]

It appears that when you said you accepted my clarification on this subject in this post that you had your fingers crossed.

Dan

LOL! It appears that when you posted this: **Originally Posted by Dan Parker **
This is my last word on this subject.

Dan

that you had *your *fingers crossed.

But, you are correct. I did say that I accepted your clarification on the other thread, although I suppose it’s true that I didn’t really believe your clarification. You have just stated too many things to the contrary.

Like this: PRmerger:

How do you determine that preaching is the highest priority over say, clothing the naked or worshiping God or praying for one another? Why do you wait until a natural disaster strikes to make this type of ministry a priority?

Dan:
It all goes back to how seriously one takes the Great Commission at Mt 28:19-20.

And this:

The priority was set by Jesus. As for praying for one another and worshiping God, those are part and parcel of the Great Commission as those things are part of making disciples.

Jesus did not say one could substitute a ministry of clothing the naked for making disciples. The commission was a command of Jesus himself and must be given priority because he made it a priority.

Dan

And this:

The word rendered “make disciples” is in the Greek Imperative. It is a command.

It certainly appears as though you are claiming that this commandment of Jesus takes priority over all of his other commandments. Yet, then you also realize the illogic of this and claim that it doesn’t take priority over all of his commandment. :whacky:

 

[dj_dave]

dj dave;5629076:

According to the Old Testament, at least one of those two people, Elijah, never died at all, but was taken to heaven without tasting death (2 Kings 2:11). So he wasn’t even dead! What should have prevented him

from appearing in person at that vision? And in any case, according to the report of the vision, Jesus was conversing with Moses and Elijah. So Jesus was conversing with whom? with a phantom? And what was He saying to them? How do you hold a conversation with a phantom—unless you had gone out of your mind of course!

I thought that too! As a matter of a fact almost every religion in Christendom believes this–But we can’t just ignore Jesus’ plainly stated words at John 3:13 Also, how many ‘heavens’ are actually spoken of in the Bible?

These were neither the distant parts of the physical universe nor the spiritual place where God and his angelic sons dwell. (Deuteronomy 4:19; Psalm 11:4; Matthew 6:9; 18:10) “The heavens” to which Elijah ascended were the atmospheric heavens.(Notice how wind is mentioned here.-- Psalm 78:26; Matthew 6:26) Racing through earth’s atmosphere, the fiery chariot evidently transferred Elijah to another part of the earth, where he continued living for a time. Years later, in fact, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah.—2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15. Remember John 3:13

 

[dj_dave]

zerinus;5629477:

*I thought that too! As a matter of a fact almost every religion in Christendom believes this–But we can’t just ignore Jesus’ plainly stated words at John 3:13 Also, *

how many ‘heavens’ are actually spoken of in the Bible?

Wait a minute! how did I end up talking with Zerinus? What happened to Nyarlathotep?

 

[zerinus]

What bible version do you have that says Elijah did not taste death? What I read is:

You assume heaven here means the abode of God. However the word also means the place where birds fly as well.

Dan

There significant bit there is that he did not experience physical death, not what kind of heaven he went to. Let’s look at the verses in more detail:

2 Kings 2:

1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Beth-el. And Elisha said unto him, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Beth-el.
3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Beth-el came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
4 And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the Lord hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;
14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over.
15 And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

Okay, so he went physically to the place where birds fly? How did he do that? And what happened to his physical body when he went up there? Was he given a pair of wings so he could fly about like the birds?

I thought that too! As a matter of a fact almost every religion in Christendom believes this–But we can’t just ignore Jesus’ plainly stated words at John 3:13 Also, how many ‘heavens’ are actually spoken of in the Bible?

I don’t read into John 3:13 what you appear to be reading.

These were neither the distant parts of the physical universe nor the spiritual place where God and his angelic sons dwell. (Deuteronomy 4:19; Psalm 11:4; Matthew 6:9; 18:10) “The heavens” to which Elijah ascended were the atmospheric heavens.(Notice how wind is mentioned here.-- Psalm 78:26; Matthew 6:26) Racing through earth’s atmosphere, the fiery chariot evidently transferred Elijah to another part of the earth, where he continued living for a time.

Do you realize how arbitrary your interpretations are? If so, then we think we can do better. We have the benefit of modern scripture which informs us that those interpretations are incorrect.

Years later, in fact, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah.—2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15. Remember John 3:13

Bible chronology in places seems very confused, as this article demonstrates. It is not at all guaranteed that the sequence of events described in those passages are correctly stated. That letter might have even been written by Elisha rather than by Elijah, and somebody got the names confused. (BTW, that is a good article, but the text of it has been messed up. I used the automatic features of a word processor to clean it up and convert it into a PDF file that I have uploaded as an attachment to this post. That one is easier to read.)

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Wait a minute! how did I end up talking with Zerinus? What happened to Nyarlathotep?

Wow, I should make a point to get on the computer more often than once every few days or so. A lot happens in a day here!

Anyway, I’m glad you clarified my flawed understanding of JW theology. It just didn’t make sense to me that a virtuous person who died seconds prior to Jesus’ birth would be relegated to an eternity of non-existence. It’s not just a JW thing, I had the same problem with Dante sending Aristotle and the other “virtuous pagans” to Hell. Granted, it was the “vestibule” or “outer courtyard” or some such, with none of those gruesome tortures or eternal suffering, and it was the fashionable part of hell, with decent local music and plenty of good restaurants, but still… Anyway, Dante is literature, not theology.

As a Catholic, I believe that heaven is populated, and that we can pray to those in heaven to intercede for us and for others, and that we can pray for the souls in Purgatory. I also believe that hell is populated, and not just for those sinning against the Holy Spirit.

But it seems that there’s nothing morally objectionable about JW eschatology.

Two more questions, though, if you’ll indulge me:

(1) How exactly does one sin against the Holy Spirit. In other words, can you think of some examples?

(2) What about that bit where Jesus says to the thief: “Amen I say to you, today you wil be with me in heaven”? Where did the thief go? I know you’re a Greek buff, so the verse is Luke 23:43 and says: “Amen lego soi, semeron met’emou ese en to paradeiso.”

 

[Dan_Parker]

zerinus:

I don’t read into John 3:13 what you appear to be reading.
**
Dan:**

NAB John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.

Please elaborate.

NAB John 3:12 If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

Wow, I should make a point to get on the computer more often than once every few days or so. A lot happens in a day here!

Anyway, I’m glad you clarified my flawed understanding of JW theology. It just didn’t make sense to me that a virtuous person who died seconds prior to Jesus’ birth would be relegated to an eternity of non-existence. It’s not just a JW thing, I had the same problem with Dante sending Aristotle and the other “virtuous pagans” to Hell. Granted, it was the “vestibule” or “outer courtyard” or some such, with none of those gruesome tortures or eternal suffering, and it was the fashionable part of hell, with decent local music and plenty of good restaurants, but still… Anyway, Dante is literature, not theology.

As a Catholic, I believe that heaven is populated, and that we can pray to those in heaven to intercede for us and for others, and that we can pray for the souls in Purgatory. I also believe that hell is populated, and not just for those sinning against the Holy Spirit.

But it seems that there’s nothing morally objectionable about JW eschatology.

Two more questions, though, if you’ll indulge me:

(1) How exactly does one sin against the Holy Spirit. In other words, can you think of some examples?

Dan:
I am writing this quickly and from memory, but I recall that the Religious leaders of Jesus’ day who schemed against Jesus and his disciples sinned against the holy spirit. They saw Jesus’ miracles which were done by means of the holy spirit which was evidence God was supporting him. As for other or more modern examples, I would have to speculate. I do personally feel that one would at least need some knowledge about Jehovah God in order to sin against His spirit. (NAB James 4:17 So for one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, it is a sin.)

(2) What about that bit where Jesus says to the thief: “Amen I say to you, today you wil be with me in heaven”? Where did the thief go? I know you’re a Greek buff, so the verse is Luke 23:43 and says: “Amen lego soi, semeron met’emou ese en to paradeiso.”

Dan:
There are lots of contextual reasons which deny the theory that Jesus and the thief were in heaven within a literal 24 hours from when this was said. I am sure you know those.

When it comes to Greek, you are also probably aware that it did not contain commas.

There is a tendency for the adverb semeron (today) to modify a verb which it follows. When it comes to the New Testament, when this word semeron is found in similar sentences it always modifies a verb that precedes it.

This is also noted by the*** Blass-Debrunner-Funk Grammar ***of NT Greek in section §474: (2) An adverb which further defines an adjective (or verb) also takes second position.

Dan

 

[dj_dave]

Dan_Parker:
Two more questions, though, if you’ll indulge me:

(1) How exactly does one sin against the Holy Spirit. In other words, can you think of some examples?

Dan:
I am writing this quickly and from memory, but I recall that the Religious leaders of Jesus’ day who schemed against Jesus and his disciples sinned against the holy spirit. They saw Jesus’ miracles which were done by means of the holy spirit which was evidence God was supporting him.

Dan is correct First-century Jewish religious leaders who maliciously opposed Jesus Christ were sinning against the holy spirit. They saw God’s spirit at work in Jesus as he performed miracles that honored Jehovah. Yet, these enemies of Christ attributed this power to Satan the Devil. According to Jesus, those who thus blasphemed against God’s holy spirit were thereby committing a sin that would not be forgiven in the present “system of things nor in that to come.”—Matthew 12:22-32.

(2) What about that bit where Jesus says to the thief: “Amen I say to you, today you wil be with me in heaven”? Where did the thief go? I know you’re a Greek buff, so the verse is Luke 23:43 and says: “Amen lego soi, semeron met’emou ese en to paradeiso.”

In the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures Luke 23:43 reads: “And he said to him: ‘Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.’” Jesus said this in answer to the following request of one of the evildoers hung beside him: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.”—Luke 23:42.
However, other Bible translations punctuate Luke 23:43 differently. For instance, the King James Version says: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

There is no question but that the position of the comma changes the meaning

Where, then, should the comma be put? What is the testimony of God’s own Word on this matter? What did Jesus himself say? Did he believe he was going to inherit his kingdom and be in some kind of Paradise immediately after he died, in that same twenty-four-hour period?

Jesus was not resurrected on the day he died, but on the third day from his death. Thus, he could not have come into his kingdom on the day of his death. Then where was he during those three days, before his resurrection? *Acts 2:24 says: “God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.” /I]So Jesus was in the grip of death during that time. Acts 2:27 further says concerning him: “*You will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption.” *Hence, Jesus was in Hades, which is mankind’s common grave. And the Bible says that there is “no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [LXX, Hades].” So he was out of existence in Hades, as was the evildoer.—Eccl. 9:5,10.

Then, on the third day from his death, God raised Jesus from the dead as a mighty spirit creature. But the evildoer was not raised; he stayed in the grave.—1*Pet. 3:18.

When Jesus, after his resurrection, materialized to appear to his disciples, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6) Jesus showed that the answer was, No. The time had not yet come for his kingdom to be established.

Then, was God’s heavenly kingdom, with Jesus as king, established at any time during the lives of the apostles? No, for about sixty-three years after Jesus’ death and resurrection the apostle John was inspired to write that God’s kingdom was still in the future. (Revelation chapter 12) And it would be under that future kingdom that paradise would be restored.

Also the fact: following his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene: “I have not yet ascended to the Father.” (John 20:17) It was 40 days after Jesus’ resurrection that his disciples saw him lifted up from the earth and out of their sight as he began his ascent to heaven.—Acts 1:3,*6-11.

NOW NOTICE OUR REASONING HERE…
The evildoer did not meet the requirements to go to heaven even at some later time. He was not “born again”—being neither baptized in water nor begotten by God’s spirit. Holy spirit was not poured out upon Jesus’ disciples until more than 50 days after the evildoer’s death. (John 3:3,*5; Acts 2:1-4) On the day of his death, Jesus had made with those ‘who had stuck with him in his trials’ a covenant for a heavenly kingdom. The evildoer had no such record of faithfulness and was not included.—Luke 22:28-30.

This evildoer could expect to be resurrected to have an opportunity for eternal life.* He would be included among those mentioned at Acts 24:15, where it states: “*There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” *As an “unrighteous” person he would be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn of God’s purposes and requirements. If obedient to God and his King-Son, he would live forever on that Paradise earth, qualified to be among those of whom Psalm 37:29 foretold: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”