LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a "wife"

[kalt]

It holds.

She’s offering Thin Mints, they can say no.

We offer baptism, they can say no.

Both are offers. Both are answers. Analogy holds.

No. Buying cookies is not an initiation to the Girl Scouts. Baptism is initiation. The difference is very clear.

And why offer Mormon batism after death, anyway? It’s not like Mormonism wasn’t an option while these people were alive. If they didn’t bite in life, leave their name alone. They’ve obviously refused your offer. So don’t list the name on your roles of the baptized by proxy.

 

[ParkerD]

A blessing? No. Flawed theology. You bet.

You really do need to change your religion designation to Catholic, if you expect us to accept the premise that having dead people’s names listed as baptized in your faith (by proxy) is supposed to mean nothing. Why aren’t you changing it to Catholic?

Because that would be dishonest of me. I personally really do believe in the Ten Commandments. Perhaps there are those who merely give them lip service who call themselves religious and say they believe in the Bible. But there are many, many people who really do follow the Ten Commandments with all of their heart, live by them and hope that the world will draw closer to living by them. Count me in with that group.

 

[kimmielittle]

Their teachings teach that by ‘binding’ and ‘gathering’ The Twelve Tribes Of Israel…It will cause a Biblical prophesy to occur.

They are trying to count everyone on earth AND "bind’ “gather” them to LDS to account for the Ten Lost Tribes.

This is why LDS won’t honor their agreements
This is why the secrecy .

They need ALL NAMES to accomplish this …
They don’t care if you are Catholic…Protestant …Jewish…etc etc .
This is why the disregard…disrespect…dishonesty about this whole process.

The name of the game…GET YOUR NAMES…and BIND them to LDS
The story about baptizing "offering’ the dead by proxy…is true. how else you gonna bind people who don’t want to be ‘bound’ to LDS??? ]

There is a 2010 Census coming up…what if everyone refused to take part. Causing this matter to go before the Courts?..LDS will have to make it’s records transparent.

 

[kimmielittle]

Because that would be dishonest of me. I personally really do believe in the Ten Commandments. Perhaps there are those who merely give them lip service who call themselves religious and say they believe in the Bible. But there are many, many people who really do follow the Ten Commandments with all of their heart, live by them and hope that the world will draw closer to living by them. Count me in with that group.

Dishonest would be;
hmmmm lying by omission?
hmmmm taking without asking…or compensating?

 

[ParkerD]

Their teachings teach that by ‘binding’ and ‘gathering’ The Twelve Tribes Of Israel…It will cause a Biblical prophesy to occur.

They are trying to count everyone on earth AND "bind’ “gather” them to LDS to account for the Ten Lost Tribes.

This is why LDS won’t honor their agreements
This is why the secrecy .

They need ALL NAMES to accomplish this …
They don’t care if you are Catholic…Protestant …Jewish…etc etc .
This is why the disregard…disrespect…dishonesty about this whole process.

The name of the game…GET YOUR NAMES…and BIND them to LDS
The story about baptizing "offering’ the dead by proxy…is true. how else you gonna bind people who don’t want to be ‘bound’ to LDS??? ]

There is a 2010 Census coming up…what if everyone refused to take part. Causing this matter to go before the Courts?..LDS will have to make it’s records transparent.

Kimmie,
Any legitimate inquirer about the ordinances done in temples could find out about a particular name. You have called it “secrecy” that the ordinances are no longer shown as part of what comes up as someone uses FamilySearch. That website has millions of hits each week. Do you think every person using that website wants to get bogged down by information that has to do with LDS temple work? I think not. There are actually people besides the LDS who have a sincere interest in figuring out their own genealogy.

You scoff that baptisms and sealing ordinances are done for the deceased. Yet you (if you believe in the Bible) believe that baptism is required for salvation. So how do you feel deep inside your heart about all of the people who lived in a place or time who never had the chance to be baptized? Do you just say in your mind , “tough luck for them”? How loving is that?

There is the teaching among Catholics that the fall of Adam brought “original sin” upon humankind. If I have understood correctly, this is a major reason Catholics use as to why they baptize infants (which incidentally I will never understand how that practice is justified from the Bible if anyone really reads it with a sincere heart). But anyway, the beliefs talk about a “loving God” yet talk about “original sin” and make parents feel very bad if they don’t have their infant baptized. How does this kind of thinking get accepted by readers of the Bible, yet the same reader of the Bible doesn’t wonder “how does God take care of all of those people who lived without having the opportunity of baptism?”

 

[pnewton]

No. Buying cookies is not an initiation to the Girl Scouts. Baptism is initiation.

They are trying to count everyone on earth AND "bind’ “gather” them to LDS to account for the Ten Lost Tribes…There is a 2010 Census coming up…what if everyone refused to take part. Causing this matter to go before the Courts?..LDS will have to make it’s records transparent.

After reading this thread, and especially the comments from zerinus, two things come to mind. First, I do not think I would like transparency in the LDS anymore than I want to see an overweight, elderly woman in a bikini, and much for the same reasons. If they wish to preserve all their secrecy and control, let them continue to show themselves for the cult they are.

Second, I am really in the mood for Thin Mints.

 

[dianaiad]

So all this is done in the name of genealogy?

An innocent sounding project…BUT

Doesn’t the real reason go to;… the teachings of LDS to "bind’ and ‘gather’ the 12 Tribes?

WHERE do you get this stuff?

The answer to your question is…not that I’ve ever been told. We do our genealogy because we want to know who we are, who our ancestors are, and we want to do the proxy work for them so that they may have a choice.

Other genealogists do it because they want to know who they are, who their ancestors are, and thus more about their family history. One of the reasons it is such a fascinating hobby to those who get into it is because we Mormon types have been doing it for so long that it is actually POSSIBLE for others to find the information they are after, and we share the work we have done freely.

 

[dianaiad]

No, he can’t. He can’t tell the little twelve year old boy in the Salt Lake City temple standing in the water that he doesn’t want him to be “baptised” on his behalf. He is no longer in this world. He can’t speak directly to the person who is making this “offer” to him.

Yes he can. We believe that he very much can. He says ‘no, thank you…" and the work that was done for him is of no effect…and nobody will ever do the work for him again. He doesn’t HAVE to say "don’t do it’ before it is done, because it’s NOT actually ‘done’ until he says “yes.”

It works exactly the way proxy marriages work now. (and yes, such marriages are still performed, in special circumstances.) In fact, right after WWII a cousin of mine was married in that fashion so that he could bring his wife to the USA. She was married to him by proxy in England, and he was married to her by proxy in Idaho. Neither ceremony took effect until both parties agreed that they were legal and enforcible. He could have married her by proxy as many times as he wanted to here–but if she a: never knew about it or b: denied it when she was told, it would have been null, void–as if it had never been done.

That’s precisely how we believe proxy baptisms work. They are not ‘done’ until and unless the people for whom they ARE done accept them.

 

[kalt]

Because that would be dishonest of me. I personally really do believe in the Ten Commandments. Perhaps there are those who merely give them lip service who call themselves religious and say they believe in the Bible. But there are many, many people who really do follow the Ten Commandments with all of their heart, live by them and hope that the world will draw closer to living by them. Count me in with that group.

And it’s dishonest to list someone as “baptized by proxy” in the Mormon faith when that person hasn’t expressed an interest in being baptized.

You may not accept my baptism by proxy for you, but your nephew called me and said that it was OK. So your name is staying on the list. This is a Catholic site, and your religion designation should reflect that fact. You should be listed as Catholic by proxy, just in case you decide to become Catholic at some future date or after your dead.

 

[kalt]

Kimmie,
Any legitimate inquirer about the ordinances done in temples could find out about a particular name. You have called it “secrecy” that the ordinances are no longer shown as part of what comes up as someone uses FamilySearch. That website has millions of hits each week. Do you think every person using that website wants to get bogged down by information that has to do with LDS temple work? I think not. There are actually people besides the LDS who have a sincere interest in figuring out their own genealogy.

You scoff that baptisms and sealing ordinances are done for the deceased. Yet you (if you believe in the Bible) believe that baptism is required for salvation. So how do you feel deep inside your heart about all of the people who lived in a place or time who never had the chance to be baptized? Do you just say in your mind , “tough luck for them”? How loving is that?

There is the teaching among Catholics that the fall of Adam brought “original sin” upon humankind. If I have understood correctly, this is a major reason Catholics use as to why they baptize infants (which incidentally I will never understand how that practice is justified from the Bible if anyone really reads it with a sincere heart). But anyway, the beliefs talk about a “loving God” yet talk about “original sin” and make parents feel very bad if they don’t have their infant baptized. How does this kind of thinking get accepted by readers of the Bible, yet the same reader of the Bible doesn’t wonder “how does God take care of all of those people who lived without having the opportunity of baptism?”

Please don’t presume to teach us Catholic theology when it’s so obvious that you don’t know it yourself.

You’ve attempted, several times now, to present this as “helping” the lost through baptism. Has is occured to you that the Christians you are baptizing by proxy were already baptized–and legitimately? Sheesh.

 

[kalt]

Yes he can. We believe that he very much can. He says ‘no, thank you…" and the work that was done for him is of no effect…and nobody will ever do the work for him again. He doesn’t HAVE to say "don’t do it’ before it is done, because it’s NOT actually ‘done’ until he says “yes.”

It works exactly the way proxy marriages work now. (and yes, such marriages are still performed, in special circumstances.) In fact, right after WWII a cousin of mine was married in that fashion so that he could bring his wife to the USA. She was married to him by proxy in England, and he was married to her by proxy in Idaho. Neither ceremony took effect until both parties agreed that they were legal and enforcible. He could have married her by proxy as many times as he wanted to here–but if she a: never knew about it or b: denied it when she was told, it would have been null, void–as if it had never been done.

That’s precisely how we believe proxy baptisms work. They are not ‘done’ until and unless the people for whom they ARE done accept them.

And so when you hear that “No thank you” coming from the rafters, you never put the name on the list and it won’t show up anywhere in Mormon records? About how long does it take to get a response from the dead? Do you need special equipment to pick up the response?

You do realize that the Catholics (and other Christians) that you are baptizing by proxy were already baptized? And they’re dead, and so God has made particular judgement already?

BTW, isn’t it God who offers baptism, not human beings? God offers and human beings respond. We teach each other about Jesus and baptism, but it is God who makes the offer. A “yes” response to the offer of baptism is a response to God, not to a Mormon. One presents himSELF for baptism if he chooses to say “Yes” to God’s offer of salvation.

Another poster, attempting to teach us Catholic theology, said that Catholics think that one has to be Christian to go the Heaven. This is not Catholic teaching.

 

[kalt]

After reading this thread, and especially the comments from zerinus, two things come to mind. First, I do not think I would like transparency in the LDS anymore than I want to see an overweight, elderly woman in a bikini, and much for the same reasons. If they wish to preserve all their secrecy and control, let them continue to show themselves for the cult they are.

Second, I am really in the mood for Thin Mints.

Let’s not forget middle aged men in Speedos and black socks.

 

[pnewton]

Let’s not forget middle aged men in Speedos and black socks.

And Do-si-dos

 

[TheosisM]

And so when you hear that “No thank you” coming from the rafters, you never put the name on the list and it won’t show up anywhere in Mormon records? About how long does it take to get a response from the dead? Do you need special equipment to pick up the response?

You do realize that the Catholics (and other Christians) that you are baptizing by proxy were already baptized? And they’re dead, and so God has made particular judgement already?

BTW, isn’t it God who offers baptism, not human beings? God offers and human beings respond. We teach each other about Jesus and baptism, but it is God who makes the offer. A “yes” response to the offer of baptism is a response to God, not to a Mormon. One presents himSELF for baptism if he chooses to say “Yes” to God’s offer of salvation.

Another poster, attempting to teach us Catholic theology, said that Catholics think that one has to be Christian to go the Heaven. This is not Catholic teaching.

In Mormon theology, only the CoJCoLDS has the authority to validly baptize. No other church does. Therefore, whenever someone converts, whether or not they were baptized (doesn’t matter if it was Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, evangelical, etc), they are baptized [again] in the LDS Church. That’s what their proxy baptism is based on as well: that it doesn’t matter if you were baptized in another church, since no other church has the authority to perform baptism (or any other sacraments/ordinances) than the LDS Church. They believe that you MUST have water baptism (on earth or by proxy) to enter the highest degree of Heaven.

Fundamentally, Catholics and Mormons have different views on baptism, including who it’s for, what it does, whether it should be ‘repeated’ in certain circumstances (i.e. excommunication), modes of baptism (immersion only vs. immersion and pouring), who does the baptizing (hence your statement on the Catholic view of God doing the baptizing), and whether or not the effects of baptism can be had after death without actual water baptism (i.e. baptism of desire).

 

[Janet1983]

Second, I am really in the mood for Thin Mints.

I actually thought of a good hot cup of coffee… Yum…

 

[Janet1983]

In Mormon theology, only the CoJCoLDS has the authority to validly baptize. No other church does. Therefore, whenever someone converts, whether or not they were baptized (doesn’t matter if it was Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, evangelical, etc), they are baptized [again] in the LDS Church. That’s what their proxy baptism is based on as well: that it doesn’t matter if you were baptized in another church, since no other church has the authority to perform baptism (or any other sacraments/ordinances) than the LDS Church. They believe that you MUST have water baptism (on earth or by proxy) to enter the highest degree of Heaven.

Fundamentally, Catholics and Mormons have different views on baptism, including who it’s for, what it does, whether it should be ‘repeated’ in certain circumstances (i.e. excommunication), modes of baptism (immersion only vs. immersion and pouring), who does the baptizing (hence your statement on the Catholic view of God doing the baptizing), and whether or not the effects of baptism can be had after death without actual water baptism (i.e. baptism of desire).

Just for the record…
They also re-baptize members who resigned and came back…

 

[why_me]

If they wish to preserve all their secrecy and control, let them continue to show themselves for the cult they are.

Mormonism is a strange ‘cult’. They seem to be pretty open in many ways but they do have sacred covenants that they make. And these are secret. But that would not make them a cult. However, I am sure that posting that sentence above made you feel better. Also, Nero found the early christians cultish too. In fact, one charge against the early christians was their cultish behavior. Were the early christians a cult?

And what about what is going on in the Vatican? We certainly do not know everything and certainly many anticatholics have claimed that the vatican has power and wields its power in secret. Does that make catholicism a cult? I don’t think so. Does that make the anticatholics correct? I don’t think so.

Mormons come and go and some stay in the faith and some leave the faith. The door is always open to leave. I see no armed guards minding the church doors.

 

[TheosisM]

Just for the record…
They also re-baptize members who resigned and came back…

Right exactly

 

[kimmielittle]

WHERE do you get this stuff?

The answer to your question is…not that I’ve ever been told. We do our genealogy because we want to know who we are, who our ancestors are, and we want to do the proxy work for them so that they may have a choice.

Other genealogists do it because they want to know who they are, who their ancestors are, and thus more about their family history. One of the reasons it is such a fascinating hobby to those who get into it is because we Mormon types have been doing it for so long that it is actually POSSIBLE for others to find the information they are after, and we share the work we have done freely.

Actually, I got it from:
Elder Russell M. Nelson
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

I hope this helps.

 

[pnewton]

. But that would not make them a cult.

Actually I do feel better, thank you very much. But what’s in a word? I will glad replace the word with “secretive, controlling religion centered around an individual founder and some alleged golden plates written in a language that doen’t exist.” Better? This does not even touch this baptizing and marrying dead people thing that they have going.