LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a "wife"

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Maybe, you could get the Good Elder to explain what he meant…seeing it’s HIS words…ohhhhh wait…I think hes dead.
Sure. As soon as you give me a direct qoute from him saying that the reason we do genealogy and Temple work is to find the ten lost tribes and cause the fulfullment of an OT prophecy. That IS what you claimed he said, remember.
 
dianaiad:

Your statement, “I honestly do not see the insult in this,” is precisely the problem.

Jews and Christians are telling the Mormon Church–every way possible–how insulting, disrespectful, and deceitful these by-proxy, rituals really are.

This quote from the following article articulates the insult to the Jewish people, "Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers."
Your link doesn’t work, which prompts the following question:

Why? Why on earth would it do that? HOW on earth could it do that? In fact, that’s the dumbest argument I’ve seen so far, bar none.
Yet, you continue to ignore; you continue to disrespect; you continue these rituals.

Add the relentless Mormon rituals to the fact that you consider all of Christianity to be “Apostate,” and you have a full circle of discrimination and persecution of both Jews and Christians. Yet, Mormons complain that they are “persecuted.” Please have some respect for those outside your religion.

This is all I have to say on the subject.

It is truly a waste of time to continue—as the Mormon church will surely do as it wishes, regardless of those whom the Mormon church has injured and offended.
You are taking offense when none is offered.
You are claiming damage where none exists.

…that’s called 'theft." I can’t control your own thoughts, of course, but let’s face it. Your ancestors are NOT your property. Certainly they are not yours to the exclusion of any of the rest of their descendants. We mean no insult. We claim that nothing we do affects anyone who does not actively want to be affected by it. We can’t make a Catholic into a Mormon against his will, nor does doing posthumous proxy work for a Holocaust victim deny the Holocaust.

(I’m still trying to figure out how that one is supposed to work.)

In fact, as to the Holocaust victims, it’s quite the opposite. If we, through our hard work and research, identify all the victims of that horrific time, so that we all recognize their names, who they are and what they died for, how is that DENYING that they died, and that they died because of their beliefs/ethnicity/heritage? In fact, we will be recognizing them so that we will remember them as real people, adding to the names. Those who died…well, the least (and I do mean the very least) we can do for them is to note that they lived.

Nothing we do can take away their lives, their deaths, or their Jewish heritage. All we do is recognize that they lived. They were born. They had families; wives, husbands, children…careers, homes, lives. It’s not much, but it is recognition that they *were. *

We need to remember that they were; that they were real.

and NOTHING we do 'plays into the hands of the Holocaust deniers."
 
Sure. As soon as you give me a direct qoute from him saying that the reason we do genealogy and Temple work is to find the ten lost tribes and cause the fulfullment of an OT prophecy. That IS what you claimed he said, remember.
“We gather pedigree charts, create family group sheets, and do temple work vicariously to gather individuals unto the Lord and into their families.”

" The Gathering of Scattered Israel ]"
Elder Russell M. Nelson
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

I have no idea of why you personally do what “you” do.
By the same token…you can’t say why the rest do.

I / we have Elder Nelson’s words only.
 
Do you defend too hard?

Do you protest too loud?

Does this make others wonder why?

I think so…
 
dianaiad:

Your statement, “I honestly do not see the insult in this,” is precisely the problem.

Jews and Christians are telling the Mormon Church–every way possible–how insulting, disrespectful, and deceitful these by-proxy, rituals really are.

This quote from the following article articulates the insult to the Jewish people, "Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers."
I got curious; this statement so completely flabbergasted me that I HAD to go see if I could find it, so I pasted it in a Google search and got this, from (I think) the article you are referencing:

"Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.

“They tell me, that my parents’ Jewishness has not been altered but … 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?” Michel said Monday."

I was right. This is the dumbest argument I’ve seen yet. As Janet posted, the records themselves will tell anyone who looks at them. Victims of the Holocaust would be clearly identified by birth date and death date as having been Jewish ALL THEIR LIVES, and having died in the Holocaust. Any proxy work would have a date WELL after their death dates. Anybody who tried to use that as a denial of the Holocaust would be pulling an incredible, and incredibly stupid, stunt.

If it plays into any hands, it would be into the hands of those who refute the Holocaust deniers.

…and a hundred years from now those records will STILL state that this Jew was a Holocaust victim, was born a Jew, and died a Jew. NOTHING we do can make him any less Jewish, or make him Mormon at the time of his death.

We hope that a thousand years from now those records will say the same thing.

Great googly moogly.
 
“We gather pedigree charts, create family group sheets, and do temple work vicariously to gather individuals unto the Lord and into their families.”

" The Gathering of Scattered Israel ]"
Elder Russell M. Nelson
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

I have no idea of why you personally do what “you” do.
By the same token…you can’t say why the rest do.

I / we have Elder Nelson’s words only.
Yes, you do. And yes, we do exactly that. I don’t see anything in there that says we do genealogy and Temple work in order to find the lost ten tribes and to cause the fulfillment of an OT prophecy.

Why you can’t see the difference between these two statements is a mystery to me.
 
Do you defend too hard?

Do you protest too loud?

Does this make others wonder why?

I think so…
How old are you, Kimmie?

IT will make a huge difference in the way I respond.

…and yes, I do have a right to ask, because you made an issue of 'being a kid."

…and the only thing our exchange is making anyone wonder is if you are truly as unprepared for the arena of debate as you seem to be.
 
Yes, you do. And yes, we do exactly that. I don’t see anything in there that says we do genealogy and Temple work in order to find the lost ten tribes and to cause the fulfillment of an OT prophecy.

Why you can’t see the difference between these two statements is a mystery to me.
Let’s see… this title that your LDS Elder composed goes to what subject matter?

The Gathering of Scattered Israel

The WHOLE page is talking on one subject…the gathering of The Tribes.

At the conclusion to His page Elder Nelson states this “We gather pedigree charts, create family group sheets, and do temple work vicariously to gather individuals unto the Lord and into their families.”

If your LDS Elder had not meant for it to be included… seeing he was an Elder of Your Church…I mean, with due respect. he knew his mind, in this writing. It must add weight to what he said and in the content of His page. Unless, you are an Elder that has the power to refute…
 
This is simply not true… You see me debating the LDS members as much as you do, but this is not factual.
On the sheets of the Family Group Record (that is what this information sheet is called) all important dates are being inserted.
Here is a link to the one that is generally used: LINK to Family Group Record

Here would be an example of the contents:
(this data is a figment of my imagination, but it could happen and be written down this way)
Family Group Record
Husband

Given name(s): James Robert; Last name: Smith
Born: 03 Jan 1879; Place: Lancaster, CA
Christened: 04 Jan 1879; Place: Sacred Heart Catholic Church, Lancaster, CA
Died: 19 Apr 1964; Place: Lancaster, CA
Buried: 25 Apr 1964; Place: Good Shepherd Catholic Cemetery, Lancaster, CA
Married: 10 May 1899; Place: Sacred Heart Catholic Church, Lancaster, CA

LDS ordinances:
Baptized: 03 Jan 1986; Temple: Los Angeles
Endowment: 03 Sep 1987; ; Temple: Los Angeles
Sealed to Parents: 10 Jun 1991; Temple: Los Angeles
Sealed to Spouse: 14 Aug 1994; Temple: Los Angeles

Husbands Father given name(s): John Michael; Last name: Smith
Husband’s Mother given name(s): Mary Ann; Last name: Miller

Same information goes for his spouse… With the information given one can conclude that James Robert Smith, son of John Michael Smith and Mary Ann Smith nee Miller was a Catholic all his life from the day he was born till the day he passed away. Due to the information presented there is no question about this. The LDS ordinances were obviously given postmortem and there is therefore no reasonable way to claim that he was LDS during his lifetime.
Because of this it is just not factually correct to accuse LDS members who collect information and apply their ordinances of deceitfully trying to change history.
I have only been following this thread sporadically, but when I came across this post I was horrified!! :eek: :eek: I’m sorry, but if I saw LDS ordinances attached to my family member’s name the way it is written above, I would be MAJORLY ticked off!!! Despite the fact that I (and my family) believe that Mormonism is a false religion and that these ordinances have no effect I would still be offended to even have anything associated with the Mormon religion associated with me or my family!!! This is absolutely disgusting.

As I said, I was kind of on the fence on this issue, because I could see some of the Mormon posters’ points that it is just an offering to the deceased and if we (non-Mormons) don’t believe in it and if the deceased does not accept it then it has no effect. But then I read how this entry would read, and I found it EXTREMELY offensive and disrespectful to the memory of the deceased. And the fact that Mormons don’t find it to be disrespectful or offensive is just as troubling. 😦
 
I know Mormons mean no harm by doing these things, but I personally find it disrespectful of other peoples’ faith. I’m Catholic, and I wish to remain Catholic. I don’t want to be listed as Mormon after I die because someone decided to have me baptized Mormon. That’s for me to decide WHILE I AM ALIVE.
 
I have only been following this thread sporadically, but when I came across this post I was horrified!! :eek: :eek: I’m sorry, but if I saw LDS ordinances attached to my family member’s name the way it is written above, I would be MAJORLY ticked off!!! Despite the fact that I (and my family) believe that Mormonism is a false religion and that these ordinances have no effect I would still be offended to even have anything associated with the Mormon religion associated with me or my family!!! This is absolutely disgusting.

As I said, I was kind of on the fence on this issue, because I could see some of the Mormon posters’ points that it is just an offering to the deceased and if we (non-Mormons) don’t believe in it and if the deceased does not accept it then it has no effect. But then I read how this entry would read, and I found it EXTREMELY offensive and disrespectful to the memory of the deceased. And the fact that Mormons don’t find it to be disrespectful or offensive is just as troubling. 😦
Take a deeeeep breath…
OK…
I am not a Mormon and to be precise I hold rather extreme opinions about their religion. I am personally involved in the issue because I happen to have relatives that are Mormons and are very dear to me. It could happen to me that my cousins children perform ordinances as a proxy for me after I pass away, so this is more than just pure speculation for me, but more a reality that I face.
To me these actions do not have any effect on my soul after I die and I therefore am not troubled with the possibility.
As a matter of fact this does not say anything about me, my husband or my children. It just tells the neutral researcher that someone in the LDS church is in whatever way related to me. It does not associate me with the LDS church, it just informs the reader that someone in there claims to be related to me.
It would be offensive if they would claims something that is not true, but they don’t. They are related to the person they do these things for and they wholeheartedly belive that they are doing them a favor. The fact that these things then are brought to paper is not a lie either. It just tells us what they did as a proxy for the deceased.
Even though you might not like the association on paper you would already be associated with them before they actually perform any ritual. If they were in some form or fashion related to your family they would see it as a service to make sure that you “stay together” as a family group (that’s why it is called family group record) in their version of the afterlife.
I do not believe that any of their teachings concerning this are true, but I also know that they do this thinking they are doing us a great service.
As a matter of fact I think it is completely misleading what they teach and they harm themselves more than they benefit me if they did this for me… I am however also certain that nothing they do in this respect is meant to be insulting, disgusting, disrespectful or offensive. They can claim that they know me as long as they want to, but if I don’t claim to be part of their organisation it will be worth less than the paper it is written on.
Let them write it down, let them go ahead and do these things, thinking that they are humble servants to their own ancestry and let them go… If anything they need prayer to find the truth.
 
I know Mormons mean no harm by doing these things, but I personally find it disrespectful of other peoples’ faith. I’m Catholic, and I wish to remain Catholic. I don’t want to be listed as Mormon after I die because someone decided to have me baptized Mormon. That’s for me to decide WHILE I AM ALIVE.
You will not be listed Mormon…
Did you see my example with “James Robert Smith”? This person (if he ever existed) would not be listed as Mormon, but as Catholic.
The dates about the ordinances simply state when these “works” were done for him…
 
Why? Why on earth would it do that? HOW on earth could it do that? **In fact, that’s the dumbest argument I’ve seen so far, bar none. **

You are taking offense when none is offered.
You are claiming damage where none exists.

…that’s called 'theft." I can’t control your own thoughts, of course, but let’s face it. Your ancestors are NOT your property. Certainly they are not yours to the exclusion of any of the rest of their descendants. We mean no insult. We claim that nothing we do affects anyone who does not actively want to be affected by it. **We can’t make a Catholic into a Mormon against his will, nor does doing posthumous proxy work for a Holocaust victim deny the Holocaust. **

(I’m still trying to figure out how that one is supposed to work.)

In fact, as to the Holocaust victims, it’s quite the opposite. If we, through our hard work and research, identify all the victims of that horrific time, so that we all recognize their names, who they are and what they died for, how is that DENYING that they died, and that they died because of their beliefs/ethnicity/heritage? In fact, we will be recognizing them so that we will remember them as real people, adding to the names. Those who died…well, the least (and I do mean the very least) we can do for them is to note that they lived.

Nothing we do can take away their lives, their deaths, or their Jewish heritage. All we do is recognize that they lived. They were born. They had families; wives, husbands, children…careers, homes, lives. It’s not much, but it is recognition that they *were. *

We need to remember that they were; that they were real.

and NOTHING we do 'plays into the hands of the Holocaust deniers."
I will post the article again, next post.

This quote from the article articulates the insult to the Jewish people, “Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.”

To this you responded by saying this is “the dumbest argument” you’ve seen so far.

So, when the Jewish people express the extreme offense the Mormon church perpetrated upon the memory of Jews who died in the Holocaust; you spit in their faces, by calling their arguments “the dumbest” you’ve ever seen? You dare to tell the Jews how to feel? You dare to tell them what should and should not offend them?

You dare to tell us all what should and should not offend us?

You dare to say to me, “Your ancestors are NOT your property,” while the Mormon church treats our ancestors as if they are there for the Mormon church to use as they see fit?

Your arrogance is really quite astounding. I am done with you.
 
haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1036093.html

Last update - 00:00 10/11/2008
U.S. Jewish group to Mormons: Stop baptizing Holocaust victims
By Associated Press
Tags: Holocaust, Mormons

Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon Church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the **church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.
**
Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database to make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century.

But Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said that is not enough. At a news conference in New York City on Monday, he said the church also must implement a mechanism to undo what you have done.

“Baptism of a Jewish Holocaust victim and then merely removing that name from the database is just not acceptable,” said Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz. He spoke on the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.

**“We ask you to respect us and our Judaism just as we respect your religion,” Michel said in a statement released ahead of the news conference. “We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough.”
**
Michel said talks with Mormon leaders, held as recently as last week, are over. He said his group will not sue, and that the only thing left, therefore, is to turn to the court of public opinion.

In 1995, the church agreed not to perform baptisms or other rites for Holocaust victims, except in the very rare instances when they have living descendants who are Mormon.

Church spokesman Mike Otterson said Michel’s decision to publicly denounce the church seems like a unilateral termination of the discussion.

“Those steps by Mr. Michel on behalf of the American Gathering were both unnecessary and unfortunate and belie the long and valued mutual respect that we have had in past years,” Otterson said in an e-mail.

Posthumous baptism by proxy allows faithful Mormons to have their ancestors baptized into the 178-year-old church, which they believe reunites families in the afterlife.

Using genealogy records, the church also baptizes people who have died from all over the world and from different religions. Mormons stand in as proxies for the person being baptized and immerse themselves in a baptismal pool.

Only the Jews have an agreement with the church limiting who can be baptized, though the agreement covers only Holocaust victims, not all Jewish people.** Jews are particularly offended by baptisms of Holocaust victims because they were murdered specifically because of their religion.**
**
Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.

“They tell me, that my parents’ Jewishness has not been altered but?100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?” Michel said Monday.**

Under the agreement with the Holocaust group, Mormons could enter the names of only those Holocaust victims to whom they were directly related. The church also agreed to remove the names of Holocaust victims already entered into its massive genealogical database.

Otterson said the church has kept its part of the agreement by removing more than 200,000 names from the genealogical index.

But since 2005, ongoing monitoring of the database by an independent Salt Lake City-based researcher shows both resubmissions and new entries of names of Dutch, Greek, Polish and Italian Jews.

The researcher Helen Radkey, who has done contract work for the Holocaust group, said her research suggests that lists of Holocaust victims obtained from camp and government records are being dumped into the database.

She said she has seen and recorded a sampling of several thousand entries that indicate Mormon religious rites, including baptisms, had been conducted for these Holocaust victims, some as recently as July.

“I’ve seen a steady procession of Jewish Holocaust names, especially names with camps linked to them, going to the International Genealogical Index,” said Radkey, who acknowledges that she has limited access to the records. “There’s no possible way of knowing exactly how many names, but it’s substantial.”

Church officials say a new version of the database - called New Family Search - will fix the problems. In the works for six years, the new database will discourage the submission of large lists of unrelated individuals. It will also separate names intended for temple rites from those submitted purely for genealogical purposes, the church states in a letter sent to Michel on Nov. 6.

The names of any Holocaust victims we can identify in the database are to be flagged with a special designation - not available for temple ordinances, the letter states.

The church also proposes jump-starting a monitoring committee formed in 2005 to review database entries. The committee has met just once since 2005.

In May, the Vatican ordered Catholic dioceses worldwide to withhold member registries from Mormons so that Catholics could not be baptized.
 
Take a deeeeep breath…
OK…
I am not a Mormon and to be precise I hold rather extreme opinions about their religion. I am personally involved in the issue because I happen to have relatives that are Mormons and are very dear to me. It could happen to me that my cousins children perform ordinances as a proxy for me after I pass away, so this is more than just pure speculation for me, but more a reality that I face.
To me these actions do not have any effect on my soul after I die and I therefore am not troubled with the possibility.
As a matter of fact this does not say anything about me, my husband or my children. It just tells the neutral researcher that someone in the LDS church is in whatever way related to me. It does not associate me with the LDS church, it just informs the reader that someone in there claims to be related to me.
It would be offensive if they would claims something that is not true, but they don’t. They are related to the person they do these things for and they wholeheartedly belive that they are doing them a favor. The fact that these things then are brought to paper is not a lie either. It just tells us what they did as a proxy for the deceased.
Even though you might not like the association on paper you would already be associated with them before they actually perform any ritual. If they were in some form or fashion related to your family they would see it as a service to make sure that you “stay together” as a family group (that’s why it is called family group record) in their version of the afterlife.
I do not believe that any of their teachings concerning this are true, but I also know that they do this thinking they are doing us a great service.
As a matter of fact I think it is completely misleading what they teach and they harm themselves more than they benefit me if they did this for me… I am however also certain that nothing they do in this respect is meant to be insulting, disgusting, disrespectful or offensive. They can claim that they know me as long as they want to, but if I don’t claim to be part of their organisation it will be worth less than the paper it is written on.
Let them write it down, let them go ahead and do these things, thinking that they are humble servants to their own ancestry and let them go… If anything they need prayer to find the truth.
I understand your position and honestly I feel bad for you that someone may do this “proxy” thing to/for you. Fortunately I am not related to and really don’t know any Mormons so, hopefully it would never be an issue for me. Quite honestly, I didn’t know a whole lot about Mormonism before coming to this site, but have learned some very disturbing things about it here.

In any event, I would still be offended - whether that’s what they intended or not. I just read the listing example as it was posted, and pictured: what if that was my Mom or Dad’s name there instead - with LDS ordinances attached the way they were in the example. Whether it’s warranted or not - I would be really angry. Mormonism is in *no way * a true religion (and from what I’ve learned here is really “out there” - i.e. The Trinity is actually 3 separate gods - God the Father use to have a physical body - He resides on some planet Kolob (sp?) - we can all become gods if we follow Mormon doctrine etc) and I don’t want any of that _____ associated with me or my family. (Sorry, I couldn’t think of a nice word to fill in the blank) Whether they think they’re doing me or my loved one a favor or not is, to me, irrelevant. I don’t think they are in any way shape or form doing something good - leave the deceased alone!!!
 
Let’s see… this title that your LDS Elder composed goes to what subject matter?

The Gathering of Scattered Israel

The WHOLE page is talking on one subject…the gathering of The Tribes.

At the conclusion to His page Elder Nelson states this “We gather pedigree charts, create family group sheets, and do temple work vicariously to gather individuals unto the Lord and into their families.”

If your LDS Elder had not meant for it to be included… seeing he was an Elder of Your Church…I mean, with due respect. he knew his mind, in this writing. It must add weight to what he said and in the content of His page. Unless, you are an Elder that has the power to refute…
Kimmie, I give up. What you are doing is called ‘eisegesis.’

…oh. HOW old are you, again?
 
Kimmie, I give up. What you are doing is called ‘eisegesis.’

…oh. HOW old are you, again?
Ha ha …sounds like Greek to me or that you are misinterpreting…and trying to make it look like its my fault you can’t understand.
 
I will post the article again, next post.

This quote from the article articulates the insult to the Jewish people, “Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.”

To this you responded by saying this is “the dumbest argument” you’ve seen so far.
Yes. And you will note that I found the article from which you pulled the quote, and quoted the context. His objection was that somehow, in a hundred years, some holocaust denier might think that this Jewish victim of this horrific time would be a MORMON holocaust victim, and thus claim that the Holocaust did not happen. I showed you how that just wouldn’t happen, because of how the records are. They are too clear as to dates.
ISo, when the Jewish people express the extreme offense the Mormon church perpetrated upon the memory of Jews who died in the Holocaust; you spit in their faces, by calling their arguments “the dumbest” you’ve ever seen? You dare to tell the Jews how to feel? You dare to tell them what should and should not offend them?
I called that the dumbest argument I’ve seen so far, because it is based upon a truely ignorant view of what happens. That it came from someone who is supposed to be in conversations with the church is truly astounding.

Another thought; even if those records somehow morphed into saying that these Jewish victims willingly converted to Mormonism before their deaths (and that would NEVER happen; EVER!") how would that “play into the hands of the holocaust deniers?” It would simply say that the Holocaust happened to victims who converted to Mormonism before their deaths. Tell me; is the holocaust the holocaust only because JEWS died in it? The fact that six million Jews were murdered in it is beyond horrific. However, were you aware that five million NON-JEWS also were murdered in the Holocaust, as well? Are their deaths to be dismissed because they were NOT Jewish?

For the argument to be made that a Holocaust victim MUST BE JEWISH (and that’s what Michel’s argument amounts to) or it would 'play into the hands of Holocaust deniers" should be offensive to everybody. Jews were the hardest hit. I do not in any way downplay the effect of the Shoah upon Jewish culture, religion, families…everything.

but they did not die alone. Mind you, I’m taking my life in my hands even hinting this; somehow admitting that nearly as many non-Jews were murdered as Jews is a very politically incorrect thing to mention, even though doing so does not take away from the tragedy of the horrific loss of life the Jews suffered. (there really are no adjectives that suffice for this.)

So we have two problems with this argument. First…he is supposing that the records will say what they never WOULD say, and second, he is utterly dismissing the suffering of everybody in the Holocaust who was NOT Jewish, by assuming that the Holocaust only happened to Jews.

I am one who thinks that the truth about the Holocaust is horrific. It shouldn’t be downplayed. It shouldn’t be changed. It should not be denied. But we also must NOT change the truth of what happened for political correctness, and that means we do not assent to lies in the service of Jewish indignation.

Eleven million people were murdered in the Holocaust. Six million of them were Jews. Nothing we can do would change that truth. We would never attempt to do anything to change that truth, and all our records would always reflect that truth. However, there is something being forgotten here. Even now, the five million non-Jews who were murdered are being referred to as 'the others," and “the forgotten ones.”

…and here this Michel is outright saying that if you weren’t a Jew, or if there is any perception that you were not a Jew, then the Holocaust didn’t happen to you; that the Holocaust was only the Holcuast to Jews. Now I find THAT offensive.Indeed, when I called that the “dumbest argument I’ve seen so far,” I was being kind.
IYou dare to tell us all what should and should not offend us?
You be offended by whatever you want to be offended by. However, in this case you have no reason to be offended. The records will not change. Nobody is going to percieve any Jewish Holocaust victim as a “Mormon holocaust victim,” because the records are too clear about dates…and Michal’s statement is offensive to every Holocaust survivor (and relative of those who did not survive) who didn’t happen to be Jewish.

…unless you, too, think that the Holocaust belongs only to the Jews, and the other five million really should be ‘the forgotten ones?’ Because that IS the argument Michal is making here; that if somehow it was percieved that MORMONS were murdered, instead of Jews, that the Holocaust deniers would see that as proof that the Holocaust did not happen–as if the deaths of the other five million victims don’t count with anybody at all, and as if the Holocaust was only ‘real’ because Jews died in it.
I You dare to say to me, “Your ancestors are NOT your property,” while the Mormon church treats our ancestors as if they are there for the Mormon church to use as they see fit?
Yes. I dare. However, as angry as I am right now, I will also say this: Only if they are our ancestors, too. I’m not a fan of people who submit names of those to whom they are not related. That’s simply wrong.
IYour arrogance is really quite astounding. I am done with you.
 
Ha ha …sounds like Greek to me or that you are misinterpreting…and trying to make it look like its my fault you can’t understand.
Eisegesis.

Look it up, Kimmie. It will be good for you–it is a term that is sort of important in religious debates.
 
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