LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a "wife"

[dianaiad]

I understand your position and honestly I feel bad for you that someone may do this “proxy” thing to/for you. Fortunately I am not related to and really don’t know any Mormons so, hopefully it would never be an issue for me. Quite honestly, I didn’t know a whole lot about Mormonism before coming to this site, but have learned some very disturbing things about it here.

In any event, I would still be offended - whether that’s what they intended or not. I just read the listing example as it was posted, and pictured: what if that was my Mom or Dad’s name there instead - with LDS ordinances attached the way they were in the example. Whether it’s warranted or not - I would be really angry. Mormonism is in *no way * a true religion (and from what I’ve learned here is really “out there” - i.e. The Trinity is actually 3 separate gods - God the Father use to have a physical body - He resides on some planet Kolob (sp?) - we can all become gods if we follow Mormon doctrine etc) and I don’t want any of that _____ associated with me or my family. (Sorry, I couldn’t think of a nice word to fill in the blank) Whether they think they’re doing me or my loved one a favor or not is, to me, irrelevant. I don’t think they are in any way shape or form doing something good - leave the deceased alone!!!

Well, I guess you need to go find out about the religion from someone other than anti’s, sir. You have made a few errors, here.

…oh, by the way, We do not believe that God lives on a planet called Kolob. Just so you know…Kolob being a star and all and nobody actually living there…
The “Trinity” consists of a Godhead: God the Father (who STILL has a physical body, by the way), His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. They are completely separate Beings who share the Godhead…and are utterly united in purpose and intent.

Oh…we can all become like God and be ‘heirs and joint-heirs’ with Christ (that’s in the bible, by the way.) because we are, quite literally, His children.

I don’t suppose you’d like to start disagreeing with what we actually DO believe?

No?

Ah, well…

 

[kimmielittle]

Eisegesis.

Look it up, Kimmie. It will be good for you–it is a term that is sort of important in religious debates.

You’ve just proved my case

 

[dianaiad]

You’ve just proved my case

How did I do that?

 

[kimmielittle]

“Ha ha …sounds like Greek] to me or that you are [misinterpreting]…and trying to make it look like its my fault you can’t understand.” It’s language roots are Greek…it’s to misinterpret…

 

[amontoya]

What is the LDS explanation of Alma 34 from the Book of Mormon? I am particularly interested in how “proxy ordinances” are compatible with verses like these (emphasis mine):

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

These verses from your scripture sure seem to say that once someone is dead then their eternal destiny is sealed.

 

[dianaiad]

“Ha ha …sounds like Greek] to me or that you are [misinterpreting]…and trying to make it look like its my fault you can’t understand.” It’s language roots are Greek…it’s to misinterpret…

Good for you.
It actually means the opposite of exegesis…which means to get the meaning OUT OF the text.

Eisegesis doesn’t mean to ‘misinterpret,’ quite.

It actually means to ‘read into’ a text a meaning you bring to it. You can be using exegesis and still misinterpret. However, with eisegesis, it doesn’t much matter what the text actually says; you have determined what the meaning is going to be before you actually read it.

I’ll let you decide whether you committed eisegesis or simply misinterpreted his article, but either way, you got it wrong.

You mentioned that the entire article was about the gathering of Israel, and therefore ALL of it was about that, right? Including the mention of genealogy and Temple work?

Ok then. Your claim here was that THE reason we did genealogy and Temple work was to ‘gather Israel,’ or find the ten tribes, and to CAUSE (your word) the fulfillment of an OT prophecy.

the problem, however, is that in that entire article, genealogy and Temple work was only mentioned in one sentence, toward the end; not as a cause for the gathering of anything, not the reason we do the Temple work, but as part of the whole LDS experience. The genealogy and Temple work are a RESULT of the gathering of Israel, we believe…and not all that big a part. Remember, what Elder Nelson specifically said was that genealogy and Temple work were for individuals and families…and that’s absolutely true. We do not look up our family histories thinking 'oh, now let’s go gather Israel and find the lost ten tribes." No 'Israel gathering" or ‘ten tribes discovering’ has happened as a result of genealogy and Temple work; just family history and family ties. Individual families–nothing so grand as nation gathering. That, we believe, is happening all by itself. We may be privileged to be a part of that, and be here FOR it, but we aren’t causing it! Nor is that our intent with the Temple work and genealogy.

IN other words, the way you put it was just twisty enough to give an entirely wrong slant to why we do genealogy and Temple work.

Does that help you any?

Oh, by the way, don’t pull, with your teachers or professors, the **** you tried with me regarding the reference request. You’ll flunk your assignment so fast you’ll think your paper self-combusted.

Trust me. I know what I’m talking about there.

 

[kimmielittle]

What is the LDS explanation of Alma 34 from the Book of Mormon? I am particularly interested in how “proxy ordinances” are compatible with verses like these (emphasis mine):

These verses from your scripture sure seem to say that once someone is dead then their eternal destiny is sealed.

She’s been most of the day trying to prove me wrong for something her Elder said on LDS pages.

 

[dianaiad]

What is the LDS explanation of Alma 34 from the Book of Mormon? I am particularly interested in how “proxy ordinances” are compatible with verses like these (emphasis mine):

These verses from your scripture sure seem to say that once someone is dead then their eternal destiny is sealed.

It is if you’ve had a full and fair chance to hear the gospel HERE, and denied it, yes.

However, please notice that these people were being given the chance there and then. What about those who never GET that chance…or, through no fault of their own, get a twisted version of the gospel, so that they never really understand it before they say no?

how fair is it to them to simply send them to hell or whatever, for something they had no control over?

 

[dianaiad]

She’s been most of the day trying to prove me wrong for something her Elder said on LDS pages.

Careful, kimmie. snarky comments get you demerits.

 

[kimmielittle]

Good for you.
It actually means the opposite of exegesis…which means to get the meaning OUT OF the text.

Eisegesis doesn’t mean to ‘misinterpret,’ quite.

It actually means to ‘read into’ a text a meaning you bring to it. You can be using exegesis and still misinterpret. However, with eisegesis, it doesn’t much matter what the text actually says; you have determined what the meaning is going to be before you actually read it.

I’ll let you decide whether you committed eisegesis or simply misinterpreted his article, but either way, you got it wrong.

You mentioned that the entire article was about the gathering of Israel, and therefore ALL of it was about that, right? Including the mention of genealogy and Temple work?

Ok then. Your claim here was that THE reason we did genealogy and Temple work was to ‘gather Israel,’ or find the ten tribes, and to CAUSE (your word) the fulfillment of an OT prophecy.

the problem, however, is that in that entire article, genealogy and Temple work was only mentioned in one sentence, toward the end; not as a cause for the gathering of anything, not the reason we do the Temple work, but as part of the whole LDS experience. The genealogy and Temple work are a RESULT of the gathering of Israel, we believe…and not all that big a part. Remember, what Elder Nelson specifically said was that genealogy and Temple work were for individuals and families…and that’s absolutely true. We do not look up our family histories thinking 'oh, now let’s go gather Israel and find the lost ten tribes." No 'Israel gathering" or ‘ten tribes discovering’ has happened as a result of genealogy and Temple work; just family history and family ties. Individual families–nothing so grand as nation gathering. That, we believe, is happening all by itself. We may be privileged to be a part of that, and be here FOR it, but we aren’t causing it! Nor is that our intent with the Temple work and genealogy.

IN other words, the way you put it was just twisty enough to give an entirely wrong slant to why we do genealogy and Temple work.

Does that help you any?

Oh, by the way, don’t pull, with your teachers or professors, the **** you tried with me regarding the reference request. You’ll flunk your assignment so fast you’ll think your paper self-combusted.

Trust me. I know what I’m talking about there.

Hey thank you,

But I’ll hold off of educational, life advice.
You see, I choose my Mentors very carefully.

 

[amontoya]

Apparently, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton has also been “baptized by proxy.” :nope:

 

[Janet1983]

Apparently, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton has also been “baptized by proxy.” :nope:

Where do you get all that?

 

[Luke65]

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

It is if you’ve had a full and fair chance to hear the gospel HERE, and denied it, yes.

However, please notice that these people were being given the chance there and then. What about those who never GET that chance…or, through no fault of their own, get a twisted version of the gospel, so that they never really understand it before they say no?

how fair is it to them to simply send them to hell or whatever, for something they had no control over?

Sorry, Diana, but it looks like you’re guilty of eisegesis. Do you see anything about the “gospel” in there? Because I don’t. I see “repentance” and “wicked”. It looks to me like the author is speaking about the law that God has written on all of our hearts. And he is right, if you don’t have a true repentance in this life, and you die in a state of mortal sin, you will go to Hell, and there is no escape.

P.S. I’m still curious why you were so vociferously defending the Mormon practice of performing these ordinances without the permission of the family, when your own leaders said the LDS policy requires their permission. But I suppose your answer will remain a secret.

 

[Luke65]

Hey thank you,

But I’ll hold off of educational, life advice.
You see, I choose my Mentors very carefully.

:clapping:

 

[kalt]

Apparently, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton has also been “baptized by proxy.” :nope:

If this is true, this practice (of making a list of supposedly baptized by proxy Catholics and others) is really sick.

And LDS people are here defending the practice. Blind followers.

 

[kimmielittle]

If this is true, this practice (of making a list of supposedly baptized by proxy Catholics and others) is really sick.

And LDS people are here defending the practice. Blind followers.

kalt, Make no mistake…they aren’t blind. It is a conscious choice of theirs.

 

[Jay53]

Well, I guess you need to go find out about the religion from someone other than anti’s, sir. You have made a few errors, here.

…oh, by the way, We do not believe that God lives on a planet called Kolob. Just so you know…Kolob being a star and all and nobody actually living there…
The “Trinity” consists of a Godhead: God the Father (who STILL has a physical body, by the way), His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. They are completely separate Beings who share the Godhead…and are utterly united in purpose and intent.

Oh…we can all become like God and be ‘heirs and joint-heirs’ with Christ (that’s in the bible, by the way.) because we are, quite literally, His children.

I don’t suppose you’d like to start disagreeing with what we actually DO believe?
No?
Ah, well…

I did not find this out from “anti’s”. These were items I was paraphrasing from memory that I read on this site and you yourself agreed with.

And it does say that you believe that God lives on a planet near the star Kolob. Either way I find that to be a strange belief and not at all what Jesus or any of the prophets taught - along with the other items on the list.

Posted by ThurifAcolyte
-“God (the Father) was once a man like us”. As ParkerD already explained, this does not necessarily mean that the Father was not divine when He was a man, just like how Jesus did not stop being divine when He incarnated. However, yes, it is taught that the Father is an exalted man, and that He could have lived on another earth prior to being our God.

-“God (the Father) has a tangible body of flesh and bones”. Yes, this is a standard belief.

-“God lives on a planet near the star Kolob”. Yes.

-“God (“Heavenly Father”) has at least one wife, our “Mother in Heaven,” but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.”. Yes, this is standard Mormon belief, that the Heavenly Father has a wife, Heavenly Mother. The rest is speculation, some say that we don’t know anything about her because the Father doesn’t want her name to be blasphemed, and other speculations. Mormons do not pray to her.

-"We can become like God and rule over our own universe. ". Mormons believe in exaltation, that you can become gods. I’ve seen at least one Mormon church manual that teaches that you will be given worlds. Mormons believe that you will become like Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, and will also have “eternal increase”, meaning, you will make spirit children as the Father did.

-"Jesus and Satan (“Lucifer”) are brothers, and they are our brothers - we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father ". Yes, we are all the spirit children of the Father, including Jesus Christ, the firstborn spirit child, and Satan (as well as all the demons). In Catholicism, we believe that the angels are a different order of beings than humans. In the LDS Church, angels are spirit children that either haven’t come to earth yet, resurrected personages, or humans that finished their life on earth and have some work to do before the resurrection. So, we are all the spirit children of God.

-“We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.”. Well, I’m sure that Mormons “try to feel a personal relationship” with Jesus. They don’t pray to Him however, and only pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.

-“The “Lord” (“Jehovah”) in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from “God the Father” (“Elohim”).” Yes, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

-“In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.” Certain leaders of the LDS church may have said statements as such, however today that isn’t the case. Interestingly, a man can be eternally married to one wife, and if she dies, he is allowed to be eternally sealed to another wife (without a sealing cancelation). A woman however cannot be eternally married to more than one man, whether or not the first one died. Of course, today a man cannot be sealed to more than one living wife.

-“Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a “pre-existence”, during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.”. Yes, Mormons believe in something called the “pre-existence” or “pre-mortal existence”. Many believe that our position in this life, as well as our talents, are based on what happened in the pre-existence.

-“Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors. If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.”-Dark skin isn’t the curse, but is the sign of the curse.

-“You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand.”-I don’t know about the color of the hair part, but yes, Joseph Smith did receive a revelation on the handshake part. It is currently in the Doctrine and Covenants scripture:
scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/129

Posted by dianaiad
Ordinarily I don’t like people who quote very long passages only to say 'I agree with you!" at the end, but

good job, Thurifer.

I’m 60 years old…but y’all know that already…and I"ve been arguing with people about my beliefs for a very long time; nearly half a century. You are the FIRST person I’ve come across that not only makes some attempt to find out what our beliefs actually are, but who actually suceeds at it, and who presents them with some sort of objective balance. I know you don’t agree with our beliefs–but at least so far you are not agreeing with our beliefs as they actually ARE.

You have no clue how refreshing that is.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=383166&page=5

 

[why_me]

I did not find this out from “anti’s”. These were items I was paraphrasing from memory that I read on this site and you yourself agreed with.

And it does say that you believe that God lives on a planet near the star Kolob. Either way I find that to be a strange belief and not at all what Jesus or any of the prophets taught - along with the other items on the list.

Do we really know everything that Jesus taught? It seems to me that if what we have is in the new testament and that is all he taught, I would have to say that his teaching does not include very much. I am sure that he said and did more. We need to remember that we only have what he reportedly said. We have nothing in his own hand writing. And I am sure that he did write something down at times and that he said much more than what we have.

We can not put a life inside a few sentences as recorded in the gospels. In your opinion, where does god live? And where is heaven? Any ideas?

 

[why_me]

kalt, Make no mistake…they aren’t blind. It is a conscious choice of theirs.

Since baptism for the dead is in the new testament, they have very little choice in the matter. Now others may not agree with their interpretation of that particular bible verse but still that is why they do it. The problem is not with the lds but with Paul who was not clear about what he meant when he said something about baptism for the dead as found in I Cor.

 

[Jay53]

Do we really know everything that Jesus taught? It seems to me that if what we have is in the new testament and that is all he taught, I would have to say that his teaching does not include very much. I am sure that he said and did more. We need to remember that we only have what he reportedly said. We have nothing in his own hand writing. And I am sure that he did write something down at times and that he said much more than what we have.

We can not put a life inside a few sentences as recorded in the gospels. In your opinion, where does god live? And where is heaven? Any ideas?

God lives everywhere - He is omnipresent. My point is that no one other than Joseph Smith and his followers mention anything about God living on a planet near a star Kolob. I don’t know of any other prophets, i.e. Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, John the Baptist etc who mention anything about this concept. Perhaps if you have any information on that it would be helpful.

And just because no one may know specifically “where” heaven is, none of this verifies any of the other items on the list, i.e. God the Father has a physical body, is married to a “Heavenly Mother” etc. All of that contradicts previous scripture in the same way that Muhammad contradicted previous scripture and thus both of them should not be believed.

Also, I honestly am not concerned that people believe these things. Mormons are free to believe whatever they wish - my point is that people who are devout Catholics (or any other religion) and who adamantly do not or did not during their lives believe in any of these things should not have it associated with their names “by proxy”, even after death.