LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a "wife"

[zerinus]

If God decides, how do living people know who’s baptizable after death?

We don’t. That is why we are advised to baptize everybody. If he has been a murderer it won’t do him any good. God will deal with him.

Mormons do the work for their own ancestors. The responsibility rests on the individual members. They can refuse to do the work for someone if they don’t want to. But how can they know what kind of life someone has lived who lived hundreds of years ago; and all you know about him is a name and date of birth? The answer is that you don’t. We baptize everybody. If he has been a murderer it won’t do him any good. He will be judged and found guilty, and receive his just reward.

 

[amontoya]

The mormon hell is rather empty. And that would make sense. And most will inherit a kingdom of glory.

Why would that make sense when Jesus said, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it?”

 

[zerinus]

Okay Parker, I guess my question is: If a son of perdition is baptized after death, will it do him any good?

The answer is No, simple as that.

And how do you know if you are baptizing or sealing a dead son of perdition to a wife? Do you have some kind of moral knowledge of the person who is baptized after death? Do you know if he was a son of perdition or not? And if you know, how do you know?

The answer is we don’t, see above. We seal him to his own wife to whom he was married in this life. We don’t seal people to fictitious wives! But what if he had murdered his wife and we know nothing about it? The answer is that it won’t do him any good. He will be found guilty and go to hell, permanently; and his wife, if she has been righteous, will be given to someone else who is worthy.

 

[Janet1983]

Committing murder or “shedding innocent blood” is included in the unpardonable sin (see Alma 39:5; D&C 42:79).

But 3 Nephi 30:2 tells us that murder can be forgiven…
Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.

 

[zerinus]

Thanks Zerinus - this is very informative. I still think it’s kind of interesting about the waiting period in Purgatory for Catholics and Hell for Mormons, both are sort of like a jail term.

The “hell” in the spirit world—or what the Book of Mormon calls “outer darkness,” is like the Purgatory in the Catholic Church.

In Catholicism, other Catholics can pray for their loved ones who may or may not be in Purgatory. Can living Mormons make any intercession for their dead loved ones who may or may not be in Hell?

There is no official LDS doctrine about that as far as I can tell. I personally don’t see a problem in praying for the dead—but definitely to the dead! If we can be baptized for them, I don’t see a problem with praying for them too—praying that their sins will be forgiven, and that they will accept the gospel in the spirit world.

 

[zerinus]

Why would that make sense when Jesus said, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it?”

There are relatively few that make it to the celestial kingdom.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The “hell” in the spirit world—or what the Book of Mormon calls “outer darkness,” is like the Purgatory in the Catholic Church.

There is no official LDS doctrine about that as far as I can tell. I personally don’t see a problem in praying for the dead—but definitely to the dead! If we can be baptized for them, I don’t see a problem with praying for them too—praying that their sins will be forgiven, and that they will accept the gospel in the spirit world.

Thanks Zerinus and also to Parker. I’ve learned a lot on this thread!

 

[zerinus]

But 3 Nephi 30:2 tells us that murder can be forgiven…
Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.

There the Lord is speaking collectively to the Gentiles. It does not mean that the individual murderers will be forgiven.

 

[amontoya]

There are relatively few that make it to the celestial kingdom.

So, does that mean that the “destruction” Jesus spoke of, that many will enter, is just the “lower levels” of Heaven? If few will be in hell or outer darkness, and few will be in the highest heaven, then Jesus referred to the other heavens as “destruction?”

 

[Janet1983]

There the Lord is speaking collectively to the Gentiles. It does not mean that the individual murderers will be forgiven.

Wouldn’t almost everybody apart from Mormons and those who are related to them or befriend them be counted as “gentiles” in this case?

 

[ParkerD]

So, does that mean that the “destruction” Jesus spoke of, that many will enter, is just the “lower levels” of Heaven? If few will be in hell or outer darkness, and few will be in the highest heaven, then Jesus referred to the other heavens as “destruction?”

Amontoya,
I hope it won’t be out of line to give perhaps more than one perspective on your questions here, since they are fairly complex. Jesus was always pointing people toward eternal life in His teaching. It would not have been in accordance with His perfect character to lead anyone anywhere else but toward the perfection that He came to earth to help humankind reach through His atonement.

“Destruction” would be synonymous with “spiritual death” which is the loss of the Holy Spirit in one’s life during their time on earth as a mortal. If one has the Holy Spirit in one’s life, they will be progressing and growing and changing by receiving the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To lose that guidance is to go off on a separate path than the path Jesus would have a person follow.

 

[amontoya]

Amontoya,
I hope it won’t be out of line to give perhaps more than one perspective on your questions here, since they are fairly complex. Jesus was always pointing people toward eternal life in His teaching. It would not have been in accordance with His perfect character to lead anyone anywhere else but toward the perfection that He came to earth to help humankind reach through His atonement.

“Destruction” would be synonymous with “spiritual death” which is the loss of the Holy Spirit in one’s life during their time on earth as a mortal. If one has the Holy Spirit in one’s life, they will be progressing and growing and changing by receiving the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To lose that guidance is to go off on a separate path than the path Jesus would have a person follow.

Ok. So, Jesus said many are on the path toward, and enter into “destruction,” which you equate with “spiritual death.” If few people are exalted in the celestial kingdom, and few people are cast into outer darkness, then many people would be in the other two heavens. So, doesn’t that still mean that Jesus equated the terrestrial and telestial heavens with spirital death and destruction?

 

[zerinus]

So, does that mean that the “destruction” Jesus spoke of, that many will enter, is just the “lower levels” of Heaven? If few will be in hell or outer darkness, and few will be in the highest heaven, then Jesus referred to the other heavens as “destruction?”

God wants everyone to be saved in the celestial kingdom. Anything less than that is a kind of a loss. Many of those who go to the telestial kingdom certainly will spend some time in hell, which can be described as a kind of “destruction”. So the answer to that is a kind of “yes and know,” depending the perspective from which you want to look at it.

 

[zerinus]

Wouldn’t almost everybody apart from Mormons and those who are related to them or befriend them be counted as “gentiles” in this case?

Maybe; but how is that related to your original question?

 

[dianaiad]

I firmly believe deep within my breast ], that members of FAIR, want people of faith to believe this is some innocuous action on the part of LDS.

I also believe that these practices are instigated, on the part of LDS, to ‘gather’ and ‘bind’ in death…that which their LDS’ ] Missionaries can’t ‘gather’ and ‘bind’ in life. This being done to ‘gather’ the 12 Tribes.

As always, just my thoughts

You may believe that the reason we do genealogy and Temple work is to ‘gather’ the twelve tribes. You’d be incredibly wrong, but you are certainly free to believe it.

What you may NOT do, without refutation and looking truly stupid, is to claim that this what WE believe the reason for genealogy and Temple work is.


But a great many people believe a great many inaccurate things about the CoJCoLDS. Join the club.

 

[ParkerD]

Ok. So, Jesus said many are on the path toward, and enter into “destruction,” which you equate with “spiritual death.” If few people are exalted in the celestial kingdom, and few people are cast into outer darkness, then many people would be in the other two heavens. So, doesn’t that still mean that Jesus equated the terrestrial and telestial heavens with spirital death and destruction?

Amontoya,
This is a very perceptive question. Remember that Jesus’ goal is to bring people “life” and as much “spiritual light” as they are willing to receive and are looking for. When a person does not take advantage of the opportunity to receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring direct guidance from God into their life so that they may stay on a path toward the changes that God will guide them to make (a path of progress), then that doesn’t mean they will never be able to receive some chance for whatever light and goodness they are willing to receive. In the Terrestrial kingdom will be those who finally realize that God’s way really was straight and narrow after all, and that they can repent of not having followed the full presence of the Holy Spirit during their life and receive the presence of the Holy Spirit and of Jesus Himself when they are resurrected.

They qualify for this because they did good things generally in life, and were honorable in their dealings with others. They lived to receive an inheritance that excludes them from the presence of Heavenly Father because they did not receive and prove themselves “valiant in the testimony of Jesus” as John the Revelator wrote about in Revelation. They have that disappointment but yet receive a portion of joy in the presence of Jesus and His love. They change from having been “spiritually dead” without the Holy Spirit in life, to having the Holy Spirit and being “spiritually alive” within the Terrestrial glory.

Those who are rescued from Hell and receive Telestial glory, will then change from having been “spiritually dead” because they didn’t have the Holy Spirit in life, to having the Holy Spirit and being to that extent spiritually alive even though they will not dwell in the presence of Jesus and His love. All the spiritual life they will have is the Holy Spirit to comfort and bring them a level of peace.

If you will look up Isaiah 61:1-2 you will note that Jesus offers rescue from prison, and that is what this means–rescue from the spiritual death and “destruction” that would otherwise be their inheritance. But those who don’t seek the Holy Spirit with all of their heart in this present world, have lost the most precious of opportunities.

 

[Janet1983]

Maybe; but how is that related to your original question?

Huh? Which original question (now I’m sort of confused).
Well I’ll just assume that is was the one about the murder and 3 Nephi… If 3 Nephi is true it means that murder is never an “unforgivable sin” except in the case of a Mormon committing it (who should know better).
Therefore anybody who is not Mormon (a Gentile according to this) would not know any better (as in your example of the tribal nations in Africa) and could by proxy be baptized and forgiven if they repent in the spirit world… That would mean that people like Adolph Hitler would not be cast into Outer Darkness as he did not have any connections with the LDS church, never heard of the Mormon gospel and was baptized, endowed as well as sealed to Eva Braun…
Martin Luther received all of his ordinances too…

 

[dianaiad]

We do it so that we can find out who our relatives are, and get their poxy work done. It’s about individual families and our dead–all those who have passed on without having had the chance to hear the complete gospel of Jesus Christ and to accept it.

…and yes, I AM aware that you don’t think we have the complete gospel of Jesus Christ. That’s beside the point. WE believe we do, and because we believe it, we act on it–else we would be hypocrites.

 

[amontoya]

Amontoya,
This is a very perceptive question. Remember that Jesus’ goal is to bring people “life” and as much “spiritual light” as they are willing to receive and are looking for. When a person does not take advantage of the opportunity to receive the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring direct guidance from God into their life so that they may stay on a path toward the changes that God will guide them to make (a path of progress), then that doesn’t mean they will never be able to receive some chance for whatever light and goodness they are willing to receive. In the Terrestrial kingdom will be those who finally realize that God’s way really was straight and narrow after all, and that they can repent of not having followed the full presence of the Holy Spirit during their life and receive the presence of the Holy Spirit and of Jesus Himself when they are resurrected.

They qualify for this because they did good things generally in life, and were honorable in their dealings with others. They lived to receive an inheritance that excludes them from the presence of Heavenly Father because they did not receive and prove themselves “valiant in the testimony of Jesus” as John the Revelator wrote about in Revelation. They have that disappointment but yet receive a portion of joy in the presence of Jesus and His love. They change from having been “spiritually dead” without the Holy Spirit in life, to having the Holy Spirit and being “spiritually alive” within the Terrestrial glory.

Those who are rescued from Hell and receive Telestial glory, will then change from having been “spiritually dead” because they didn’t have the Holy Spirit in life, to having the Holy Spirit and being to that extent spiritually alive even though they will not dwell in the presence of Jesus and His love. All the spiritual life they will have is the Holy Spirit to comfort and bring them a level of peace.

If you will look up Isaiah 61:1-2 you will note that Jesus offers rescue from prison, and that is what this means–rescue from the spiritual death and “destruction” that would otherwise be their inheritance. But those who don’t seek the Holy Spirit with all of their heart in this present world, have lost the most precious of opportunities.

First, if the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father are equal, why would being in the presence of one be less glorious than being in the presence of another?

Second, yes Jesus rescues us from spiritual death if we follow Him in this life, but I don’t see where He said He would rescue us from the destruction we enter into by following the broad path. Why would He continually warn us against rejecting Him now, and being cast into hell, if we could go to heaven anyway?

 

[ParkerD]

First, if the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and the Father are equal, why would being in the presence of one be less glorious than being in the presence of another?

Second, yes Jesus rescues us from spiritual death if we follow Him in this life, but I don’t see where He said He would rescue us from the destruction we enter into by following the broad path. Why would He continually warn us against rejecting Him now, and being cast into hell, if we could go to heaven anyway?

Amontoya,
Again, these are perceptive questions and I appreciate the depth of your thinking.

1–Jesus was completely united with the plan of Heavenly Father that brings those who become “like Jesus” through having progressed through receiving the guidance of the Holy Spirit, into the presence of Heavenly Father in a state of cleanliness and purity and sanctification. The “glorious” joy of being with Them is because being with Them after our resurrection means we have a close unified relationship with Them and can feel Their joyfulness as They say, “Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of thy Lord.” It is a fullness of joy that includes participating in the kind of life They enjoy, a life completely full of love. It is to love as Christ and the Father love.

Being in the presence of Jesus and feeling His love will bring great joy, but not a fullness of joy because in that condition those who receive it will not have the full capacity to love that Christ and the Father have. Their capacity to love will have become limited by their choices in life. A fullness of joy cannot be felt without the capacity to love to the same extent that They do.

Being in the presence of the Holy Spirit will bring peace, comfort, and relief from torment but it will be so far different than the other two kingdoms because there will only be a spiritual presence of God and not the physical presence of Jesus. Those who receive this will miss out on the joy of being in the presence of the kind of love emanating from the physical presence of Christ. It is less tangible and less vibrant. It also means they have less knowledge and less capacity to love, so this brings less joy to their souls.

2–Jesus of course doesn’t want anyone to suffer the pains of Hell at any point, even for a minute and certainly not for a thousand years. The Telestial kingdom is so far different than the “Heaven” that is available to sincere followers of Christ that it would be completely disappointing to anyone who has sought God’s presence by how they lived their life, to arrive eventually in the Telestial kingdom. So going from Hell to that kind of glory does not equate to going to Heaven at all.

As I had written before and as Zerinus wrote, Jesus has within His desires for each of us that each of us will qualify to live with Him and the Father in Their presence. Living by a fullness of truth means that Christ can warn and remind repeatedly, but does not force behavior in any way. The Heaven He wants us to achieve through making covenants and being guided by the Holy Spirit is only one Heaven, and that is the highest Heaven.

The lower “heavens” are for those who are otherwise “captives” who need His keys of death and hell and receive the “opening of the prison to them that are bound.” (Isaiah 61:1) The reason they are bound is that they did not avail themselves of the full power of His deliverance during their mortal lives.