LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a "wife"

[ParkerD]

This is where most people see the baptisms of the dead going…".But certainly a record is made of their baptism so they are considered a “member.”,

This is what gets people upset.

Yes, but that is because they assume someone on earth has decided to “make” such a person a “member” of a church or “the church”, but this is simply not so. That spirit person is not considered a “member” of the Mormon church by the Mormon church, nor by the people involved in doing the ordinances.

 

[Jay53]

Yes, but that is because they assume someone on earth has decided to “make” such a person a “member” of a church or “the church”, but this is simply not so. That spirit person is not considered a “member” of the Mormon church by the Mormon church, nor by the people involved in doing the ordinances.

I still don’t understand why not. What is different between the two ceremonies that makes the living person a “member”, but the dead one not a “member”? Normally I would agree with you about the acceptance, (and we wouldn’t know if the dead person accepted or not) but if the living person doesn’t make a formal acceptance when the baptism occurs, then what makes him a member?

 

[ParkerD]

I still don’t understand why not. What is different between the two ceremonies that makes the living person a “member”, but the dead one not a “member”? Normally I would agree with you about the acceptance, (and we wouldn’t know if the dead person accepted or not) but if the living person doesn’t make a formal acceptance when the baptism occurs, then what makes him a member?

Jay,
The living person has made an “informal acceptance” when they were interviewed and when they said they wanted to be baptized. They have accepted the commitment of entering into a covenant with Jesus Christ. It is not a light thing. It is to have been heartfelt, and it is to have been a lifetime commitment to Him.

 

[Jay53]

Jay,
The living person has made an “informal acceptance” when they were interviewed and when they said they wanted to be baptized. They have accepted the commitment of entering into a covenant with Jesus Christ. It is not a light thing. It is to have been heartfelt, and it is to have been a lifetime commitment to Him.

Is this “informal acceptance” required in order to be baptized?

I still just trying to figure out how the baptism of a living person is a religious sacrament that makes them a Mormon, but a baptism by proxy is only an “offer” to a deceased person that they can accept or reject.

I’m getting the impression that that through the interview process, a living soon-to-be Mormon expresses a desire to be baptized and the actual baptism solidifies that desire and declares before God that this person believes in the Mormon faith etc. It doesn’t seem that there is any “offer” stage of the baptismal rite where during or afterward the person being baptized expresses their acceptance.

Deceased people, however, obviously don’t have the interview process and in many cases may have openly rejected Mormonism during their lives - so what does the baptism do for them? - it would appear that the descendant declares for them (thus “by proxy”) before God that this deceased person accepts the Mormon faith.

I guess that’s what I am asking - is there some part of the “baptism by proxy” that explicitly states that this is only an offer and that the deceased person is free to accept or reject such baptism - although the descendant would obviously hope that their relative accepts? Or is the wording and ritual the same in both cases?

 

[ParkerD]

Jay,

Is this “informal acceptance” required in order to be baptized?

It is implied by the fact that the person wants to be baptized and has expressed that intent.

I still just trying to figure out how the baptism of a living person is a religious sacrament that makes them a Mormon, but a baptism by proxy is only an “offer” to a deceased person that they can accept or reject.

I’m getting the impression that that through the interview process, a living soon-to-be Mormon expresses a desire to be baptized and the actual baptism solidifies that desire and declares before God that this person believes in the Mormon faith etc.

Again, the fact of their becoming a “member” is because their name is recorded, but the covenant making is between them and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost is given to them individually. I wouldn’t use the word “solidifies”, but rather “formalizes and brings into covenant”. It is implied that the person “believes in the Mormon faith” to the extent that they believe they need to be baptized and that the Mormon priesthood has the authority from God to do that. But it does not mean “per se” that they believe every single thing that they are ever going to hear or read about beliefs of other LDS members. Baptism is a fairly simple covenant, and it is with Jesus Christ, not with other people.

It doesn’t seem that there is any “offer” stage of the baptismal rite where during or afterward the person being baptized expresses their acceptance.

That was already implied by the fact of their wanting to be baptized.

Deceased people, however, obviously don’t have the interview process and in many cases may have openly rejected Mormonism during their lives - so what does the baptism do for them?

If you have followed the last couple of days back and forth exchanges, it is because if Mormons truly believe they have authority from God to perform necessary baptisms to provide entrance to the gate of salvation if the person chooses to enter that gate, then to withhold that entrance because a person didn’t understand the implications during their mortal life would be to make a decision for the person that the person should be able to decide for themselves, when they have understood what the decision really is.

If you will separate the decision about “being a Mormon” from the decision about “covenanting with Jesus Christ”, then I think perhaps you will be closer to understanding the perspective.

• it would appear that the descendant declares for them (thus “by proxy”) before God that this deceased person accepts the Mormon faith.

If it still appears that way to you, then I hope you’ll go back and re-read several of my comments and those of Dianaiad. Your assumption is simply not true.

I guess that’s what I am asking - is there some part of the “baptism by proxy” that explicitly states that this is only an offer and that the deceased person is free to accept or reject such baptism - although the descendant would obviously hope that their relative accepts? Or is the wording and ritual the same in both cases?

There is not a difference. You would need to understand the component of faith expressed during covenant-making. To introduce such an “iffy” kind of clause, expresses doubt and decreases the active power of faith. When such a spirit person accepts the ordinance, they will be doing it with full and complete faith in Jesus Christ, not an “iffy” kind of faith.

 

[kimmielittle]

Yes, but that is because they assume someone on earth has decided to “make” such a person a “member” of a church or “the church”, but this is simply not so. That spirit person is not considered a “member” of the Mormon church by the Mormon church, nor by the people involved in doing the ordinances.

Then why would people ‘seal’ a wife…i.e the original post ‘LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a “wife” ]’ ?

This would be an ‘Endowment’ after the baptized part?

Someone, is surely considering them to be Mormon?

 

[ParkerD]

Then why would people ‘seal’ a wife…i.e the original post ‘LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a “wife” ]’ ?

This would be an ‘Endowment’ after the baptized part?

Someone, is surely considering them to be Mormon?

Kimmie,
I have no idea why anyone thought they were doing a necessary or correct thing who submitted such a name and such a marriage. It was simply incorrect and, as far as I’m concerned, incompetent research.

As far as the sealing of validly married people, there was a back and forth discussion about that yesterday, and again the assumption is that some have accepted baptism and have gone beyond that in their desires to be “sealed” as a couple and as a family, but those who have not had those intentions or desires in the spirit world will not even know the ordinance has happened, and it will not have made an inkling of difference to them whether such a thing happened on earth. They will be thinking about other things, and have other concerns.

 

[kimmielittle]

Kimmie,
I have no idea why anyone thought they were doing a necessary or correct thing who submitted such a name and such a marriage. It was simply incorrect and, as far as I’m concerned, incompetent research.

Hiyas Parker
Thank you…is there away to help stop that?

As far as the sealing of validly married people, there was a back and forth discussion about that yesterday, and again the assumption is that some have accepted baptism and have gone beyond that in their desires to be “sealed” as a couple and as a family, but those who have not had those intentions or desires in the spirit world will not even know the ordinance has happened, and it will not have made an inkling of difference to them whether such a thing happened on earth. They will be thinking about other things, and have other concerns.

I read all your responses.

I just don’t show as being on-line.
I think validly married people being ‘sealed’ is cool, kinda.

I don’t want some boy marrying me…when I’m dead.

 

[Jay53]

I’m afraid I’m becoming even more confused by all of this. Thank you for your patience in explaining this to me.

Jay,

It is implied by the fact that the person wants to be baptized and has expressed that intent.

OK. That makes sense in that a person who didn’t want to be baptized wouldn’t present themselves for baptism. (Which is what deceased non-Mormons did (or didn’t) do while they were alive. They did not believe in Mormonism so they did not present themselves for baptism.)

Again, the fact of their becoming a “member” is because their name is recorded, but the covenant making is between them and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost is given to them individually. I wouldn’t use the word “solidifies”, but rather “formalizes and brings into covenant”. It is implied that the person “believes in the Mormon faith” to the extent that they believe they need to be baptized and that the Mormon priesthood has the authority from God to do that. But it does not mean “per se” that they believe every single thing that they are ever going to hear or read about beliefs of other LDS members. Baptism is a fairly simple covenant, and it is with Jesus Christ, not with other people.

Then why are non-Mormons who are “baptized by proxy” not members? - their names are recorded the same as live Mormons who have been baptized, the entry just says baptism by proxy as opposed to just baptism.

And I also understand the covenant is between the deceased and God. If the baptism of a living person “formalizes and brings into covenant” that person, why does it not do the same for the deceased person?

That was already implied by the fact of their wanting to be baptized.

If you have followed the last couple of days back and forth exchanges, it is because if Mormons truly believe they have authority from God to perform necessary baptisms to provide entrance to the gate of salvation if the person chooses to enter that gate, then to withhold that entrance because a person didn’t understand the implications during their mortal life would be to make a decision for the person that the person should be able to decide for themselves, when they have understood what the decision really is.

Do Mormons believe that God will not accept a person if they have not gone through a baptism either on earth or by proxy on earth? Somehow I find that position to limit the power and mercy of God. Or maybe the Mormon view of God is so vastly different from my view that I will never be able to make comparisons and reconcile the two.

If you will separate the decision about “being a Mormon” from the decision about “covenanting with Jesus Christ”, then I think perhaps you will be closer to understanding the perspective.

So then the baptism of a person is NOT what makes a person a Mormon? A person can be a Mormon without undergoing a baptism? Sorry, but you’ve totally lost me here. As a Catholic, I have a relationship/covenant with Jesus Christ. Why, when I am dead would I then need another one through a “baptism by proxy”?

If it still appears that way to you, then I hope you’ll go back and re-read several of my comments and those of Dianaiad. Your assumption is simply not true.

I guess I just don’t see/understand the position then of the person doing the baptism. What are they declaring or doing by undergoing a baptism by proxy? I will go back and reread your posts. I have a tendency to skip over some of the more “snarky” responses made by some people and in doing so I may have missed something. Offhand, I don’t recall reading anything that made sense, thus my current set of questions.

There is not a difference. You would need to understand the component of faith expressed during covenant-making. To introduce such an “iffy” kind of clause, expresses doubt and decreases the active power of faith. When such a spirit person accepts the ordinance, they will be doing it with full and complete faith in Jesus Christ, not an “iffy” kind of faith.

The “iffy” part would only be on the part of the acceptance of the deceased person, i.e. “We are performing this baptism for so-and-so **in the event **they will accept this offer of a covenant with Jesus Christ according to Mormon doctrine etc.”. The “iffy” part is supposed to be because one does not know if they accept or not. I was under the impression that no one knows and that Mormons don’t make any judgment as such - or do Mormons operate under the notion that all deceased people will accept such a covenant if it is offered?

 

[ParkerD]

Hiyas Parker
Thank you…is there away to help stop that?

I read all your responses.

I just don’t show as being on-line.
I think validly married people being ‘sealed’ is cool, kinda.

I don’t want some boy marrying me…when I’m dead.

Kimmie,
Thanks for lightening things up with your response here, and thanks for your question. I love the southeast, having lived in Marietta/Kennesaw, Georgia for seventeen years.

If you will write down at the top of a sheet of paper the words, “LDS goal: a Zion people on earth”, then under that heading write down the following descriptive words of what a Zion people would be like:

–members trust each other
–members trust the leaders, who are called by inspiration and serve until given a different calling
–leaders trust the members
–members and leaders serve each other and are genuinely concerned about each other and care for the poor among them
–love, compassion, and faith are central components of Zion
–members are empowered because they are trusted
–members and leaders have the Holy Spirit’s guidance daily

Now, there are people in the LDS church who will eventually fall by the wayside but who in the meantime may have wrong motives (which I think was the case with this sealing submittal). They will be sifted out, but in the meantime if there was a “looking over the shoulder” non-trusting check and double-check of everything that is done with temple work, then how can trust and empowerment be genuinely accomplished? It can’t. So instead of having perfect ordinance work, mistakes are made and time is wasted, but the eventual goals of a “Zion people” built on trust and the goal that those in the spirit world who desire those ordinances may receive them of their own accord, can be furthered along without minimizing the first goal for the sake of the second goal.

 

[PaulDupre]

I would answer that baptism does not “bind them to the Mormon faith” per se, because no words convey that in either the ordinance itself or in the interview process leading up to the ordinance.

Just for the sake of clarity, the LDS interview process uses the following questions:

LDS Baptismal Interview Questions:

1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of
   God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?
   2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the
   Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God?
   What does this mean to you?
2. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past
   transgressions?
3. Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have
   you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?
   5. You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them?
   a. The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal
   marriage between a man and a woman.
   b. The law of tithing. [This means tithing to the LDS Church]
   c. The Word of Wisdom.
   d. The Sabbath day, including **partaking of the sacrament weekly **and rendering service to
   fellow members. [The LDS Sacrament and LDS members]
4. When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the
   name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make
   this covenant and strive to be faithful to it? [The commandments taught by the LDS church]

This is far more than just “entering into a personal covenant with Jesus”. This means you are a member of - and bound to - the LDS church.

 

[ParkerD]

Just for the sake of clarity, the LDS interview process uses the following questions:

LDS Baptismal Interview Questions:

1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of
   God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?
   2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the
   Prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God?
   What does this mean to you?
2. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past
   transgressions?
3. Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have
   you ever participated in an abortion? a homosexual relationship?
   5. You have been taught that membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints includes living gospel standards. What do you understand of the following standards? Are you willing to obey them?
   a. The law of chastity, which prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of a legal
   marriage between a man and a woman.
   b. The law of tithing. [This means tithing to the LDS Church]
   c. The Word of Wisdom.
   d. The Sabbath day, including **partaking of the sacrament weekly **and rendering service to
   fellow members. [The LDS Sacrament and LDS members]
4. When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the
   name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make
   this covenant and strive to be faithful to it? [The commandments taught by the LDS church]

This is far more than just “entering into a personal covenant with Jesus”. This means you are a member of - and bound to - the LDS church.

Hi, Paul,
Those are from the new Preach My Gospel manual, except the part you added in blue. I disagree that a person who goes through such an interview will feel “bound to” the LDS church. They will certainly feel that they have been asked if they have a testimony that includes Joseph Smith and a living prophet, but why would they want to be baptized into the LDS church if they didn’t have those feelings quite strongly?

One of the reasons for the specific questions is to make sure the missionaries have taught the concepts well enough for the candidate to understand them. Another is that if they are never going to come to church again, their baptism would avail them very little and would mean they hadn’t been sincere in their covenant about attending sacrament meeting.

Living the law of tithing brings absolutely promised blessings. The goal is that a candidate for baptism will prepare themselves to make temple covenants during the first few years of their membership if an adult, and that question of course is part of the temple recommend interview, as are most of the others.

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi, Paul,
Those are from the new Preach My Gospel manual, except the part you added in blue. I disagree that a person who goes through such an interview will feel “bound to” the LDS church.

I’m sure people can read the questions and draw their own conclusions.

 

[Anna_Scott]

ParkerD:

It is disturbing to me that even though I formally resigned from the Mormon Church, my name can still be used for proxy baptisms and other rites after my death.

If I have formally rejected Mormonism in life, my decision should be respected, after my death. Many LDS members argue that proxy rites for the dead should not matter. I disagree. I do not want to be associated, in any way–in life or death–with a religion that proclaims the following beliefs:

**“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.” **(JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

"I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see." (JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

"Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead. . " (JD 6:4, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

Mormon Prophet, Brighan Young, April 9, 1852:
"Journal of Discourses Volume 1:50-51

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. . . .

When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. . .

. . .It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

. . .**What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation.
**
. . .**Now remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. **

. . .Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing." (Journal of Discourses of the General Authorities of the LDS Church, Volume 1)

LDS Journal of Discourses it is online at journalofdiscourses.org/volume-01/.

**The Desert News, Discourse, By President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, June 8th, 1873

"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God**—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth.

**Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation **to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith."
(© THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH | J. Willard Marriott Library 295 S 1500 E SLC, UT 84112-0860)

The Desert News can also be found online.

Emphasis throughout is mine.

 

[Jay53]

Quote:
“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.” (JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

Quote:
"Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead. . " (JD 6:4, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

How do these quotes not contradict previous scriptures?

Or do Mormons not care if their book/prophet contradicts previous scriptures in the same way Muslims don’t care that Muhammad contradicts previous scriptures?

 

[twopekinguys]

How do these quotes not contradict previous scriptures?

The mormons will tell you that the journal of discourses is not cannonized scripture. They will also say that in many cases, it was merely opinion. They will also tell you that something said may have been misquoted.

 

[Jay53]

The mormons will tell you that the journal of discourses is not cannonized scripture. They will also say that in many cases, it was merely opinion. They will also tell you that something said may have been misquoted.

Has anyone said that those two specific quotes have been misquoted or that they are not true Mormon beliefs?

 

[PaulDupre]

How do these quotes not contradict previous scriptures?

To Mormons, everything is relative. They believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, but only of this planet. When the bible or the BoM says that there is only one God, they say that is true, for this planet (or this universe, depending on the sci-fi savvy of the individual). They believe that other worlds (or universes) are ruled by other gods, and populated with those other gods’ spirit children, respectively. So they hold beliefs in “one God” and “gods without number” at the same time. In the same way, they can say that their god is “the supreme being” but admit that there are other gods above the one they worship, and that indeed their god worships his god.

:hypno:

 

[twopekinguys]

Has anyone said that those two specific quotes have been misquoted or that they are not true Mormon beliefs?

Not yet, that I know of, but I’m sure they’re going to tell you they aren’t cannonized scripture.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD:

It is disturbing to me that even though I formally resigned from the Mormon Church, my name can still be used for proxy baptisms and other rites after my death.

If I have formally rejected Mormonism in life, my decision should be respected, after my death. Many LDS members argue that proxy rites for the dead should not matter. I disagree. I do not want to be associated, in any way–in life or death–with a religion that proclaims the following beliefs:

LDS Journal of Discourses it is online at journalofdiscourses.org/volume-01/.

The Desert News can also be found online.

Emphasis throughout is mine.

Anna,
I have no idea what you have been told by other members, but my understanding is that a baptized person such as yourself (in the LDS church at some point in your life) would certainly not have a “baptism for the dead” ordinance done ever for them, nor other temple ordinances unless some descendant of yours does the research about you and thinks they should have your other ordinance work done. If you will make it clear to your descendants that you made a knowledgeable decision and understood exactly what you were doing and want them not to submit for any of those ordinances to be done for you, then if I were one of them I would take your word for it and leave things be. But I of course can’t speak for them.