LDS - Belief in Heavenly Mother; Prayers?

[Javl]

The same Jewish religion that did not recognize the Son of God when in their midst?

And your point is?

Are you implying that the Jews kept geneological records of the tribes that were…lost?

Yes, and Joe Smith and the LDS are in serious error with the “Lost Tribes” bit. There were never any. The 10 “Lost Tribes” were “lost” only to Israel when they sided with the tribe of Judah. Check your Hebrew history. It’s also in the Bible.

Given the choice between God, and the Jewish religion, I would choose God as the source of accurate information.

So would I. Where do you think this info comes from???

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Danger, danger Will Robinson. From the standpoint of logic your first statement is wrong and leads to a precarious position that does not hold water. If you agree that God the Father is “male” is it is not logical if there is no female. Are you sure you think God the Father is actually male from a sexual viewpoint? If so, what does a male gender mean if there is no female gender?

This has already been treated and explained.

I hate to always be pushed into taking Devil’s advocate in these conversations, but the arguments are just so bad that I feel forced to comment. Does all Catholic doctrine find its foundation in scripture? No of course not. Marian adoration is not found in scripture…unless we use a very definite “catholic” spin. (This issue of spiin is odd to accuse others of having without admitting that we ourselves have our own spin; talk about straw man arguments!)

You had better go back and do some more research and study about Catholicism for you seem to have a lot of predjudice and misconceptions about it.

Every teaching, tenet, doctrine, and dogma, within Catholicism is Biblical. It is said that the Church uses, depends, and relies on Tradition. Yes we do. Holy traditions only, such as the Trinity. Much in mainline Christianity is Holy Tradition based. Many have tried to prove Catholicism has apostacized, erred, changed, etc,. and all have failed. Jesus, the Apostles, and all the Church Fathers have proved otherwise. Keep in mind that the Catholic Church has been here unchanged for 2000 years still teaching the exact same truth that Jesus taught. Prove otherwise.

Trinitarian doctrine allows for a very distinct difference between the persons within the Trinity. They have definite roles. Attempting to draw a conclusion because Jesus did not direct us NOT to pray to him is building a foundation on sand. Would you allow Mormons or any other group the same degree of flexibility? Jesus did not say to not pray to the a great number of people, should we all pray to them anyway? Of course not!

Again your predjudice, misunderstanding and misconception shows through. You are the one who is building on sand with your unfounded accustaions and criticisms.

I believe it was Brigham Young that stated in his own writings that he thought the conception of Jesus was done in the same manner that all conceptions happened. I have been corrected many times by Mormons from assuming that means intercourse. They have also stated that their doctrine is found in the scriptures and the Book of Mormon supposedly states that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary in several places; thus they say their church doctrine is clear that Jesus was born of a virgin regardless of Young’s comment.

Yes, it was Brigham young, if I remember correctly. At one time his words and teachings were on the same level as sacred scripture, but no longer.

Friends, apologetic commentary needs to be sharpened and clarified. Let us not be found guilty of the perverse type of anti-Mormon tripe found among the Evangelical world. Let our commentary come from the light of Truth. Let us not pass on this puerile, churlish nonsense found elsewhere, but let us speak as befitting of true Christians. Our words are just as important as our works; they are our fruit to be observed by others who seek the truth. When our fruit is bad we push others from truth and light. Let us only bear good fruit before the world.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Catholics on this and other threads ( myself included ) all try to present the real truth given by Jesus to us through the Apostles. We try to eliminate predjudice, myths, lies, misconceptions, misunderstandings, and error. If you pay attention to our posts you will find this is the case. I am sure that we do not belittle anyone, but do try to get our point across in all Christian Charity. If you and others do not see it that way, then we are sorry for your predjudices and can only say read and study about The Catholic Church and find out that we are correct. We all have much to learn.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[flyonthewall]

And your point is?

Yes, and Joe Smith and the LDS are in serious error with the “Lost Tribes” bit. There were never any. The 10 “Lost Tribes” were “lost” only to Israel when they sided with the tribe of Judah. Check your Hebrew history. It’s also in the Bible.

Are you saying that Israel was not scattered throughout all kingdoms and nations of the earth as the Bible has stated?
Can you explain what you mean when you say that the 10 tribes were lost only to Israel when they sided with Judah?
The kingdom was divided, Judah and Benjamin became known as the kingdom of Judah, and the rest of the tribes was known as the kingdom of Israel.
The kingdom of Israel was conquered and scattered and was no more. The Kingdom of Judah became known as the Jews.
Where are the tribes of the Kingdom of Israel? Just as the Bible states, they are scattered througout the world.

So would I. Where do you think this info comes from???

Certainly does not agree with what God has stated.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Diaspora through the Roman government expelled the Jews and from Israel they were dispersed throughout the world…after Christ’s death and resurrection.

There was another attempt to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, but the Romans squashed it.

I don’t know if it is factual or not, but a friend told me the Romans kept up a wall…the Wailing Wall…as testimony to the feat they accomplished in bringing down the Temple as it was so incredibly built.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Does all Catholic doctrine find its foundation in scripture? No of course not. Marian adoration is not found in scripture

Marian adoration isn’t found in Catholicism either, Eucharistic Adoration yes, Marian adoration no.

 

[ParkerD]

I don’t think that the LDS would dare do that. If they did with Orthodox Jews they would go down not only in flames but be very embarassed in having to change their Jewish geneology. I am surprised that no Jew has taken the LDS to task for their statements. But then, the Jews are too sophisticated to bother with fantasies.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,

Actually, JAVL, LDS church leaders have not had the slightest hesitation to meet with Jewish leaders from Israel, nor vice versa. There has often been positive dialog, sometimes about the LDS cannery system and sometimes about a mutual respect for doctrine as per the following linked article:

lds.org/ensign/1976/12/a-message-to-judah-from-joseph?lang=eng

That article shows a level of respect that is neither shallow nor flippant.

 

[Javl]

Are you saying that Israel was not scattered throughout all kingdoms and nations of the earth as the Bible has stated?
Can you explain what you mean when you say that the 10 tribes were lost only to Israel when they sided with Judah?
The kingdom was divided, Judah and Benjamin became known as the kingdom of Judah, and the rest of the tribes was known as the kingdom of Israel.
The kingdom of Israel was conquered and scattered and was no more. The Kingdom of Judah became known as the Jews.
Where are the tribes of the Kingdom of Israel? Just as the Bible states, they are scattered througout the world.

Certainly does not agree with what God has stated.

FLY:

You had better bone up on your Hebrew history and stop depending on someone’s misinterpretation of the Bible. The ten tribes of Israel were NOT lost!!! When the Hebrews were scattered not all of them were. Individuals and families may have been scattered, but NOT the tribes!. Read up on Philo, Josephus, Clio, etc., and learn that there are/were no “lost tribes”!!!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

JAVL,

Actually, JAVL, LDS church leaders have not had the slightest hesitation to meet with Jewish leaders from Israel, nor vice versa. There has often been positive dialog, sometimes about the LDS cannery system and sometimes about a mutual respect for doctrine as per the following linked article:

lds.org/ensign/1976/12/a-message-to-judah-from-joseph?lang=eng

That article shows a level of respect that is neither shallow nor flippant.

Which branch of Judaism, Parker? Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox? I’ve been involved with both Conservative and Orthodox Judaism for many years and have not heard of or have come across any dialog of Judaism with any LDS Church or LDS sect. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

Which branch of Judaism, Parker? Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox? I’ve been involved with both Conservative and Orthodox Judaism for many years and have not heard of or have come across any dialog of Judaism with any LDS Church or LDS sect. Shalom.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,

Here are the names from the article:

David Ben-Gurion, Levi Eshkol, and Moshe Dayan

I don’t know which Jewish background they had–perhaps you do. The article itself was a talk presented to a gathering of Jews and Mormons, as the headnote reads.

Have a good day.

 

[Chris-WA]

Thanks for your explanation Fly. Have you considered that the reason God made us male and female was for the purpose of procreation. There is absolutely no need for male and female unless procreation is involved. If you do not believe that procreative actions are used by God then why would you believe God would need to be distinguished as either male or female? Sexuality becomes a moot point when one has the ability to create. The fact that “Heavenly Parents” are a part of Mormon doctrine implies that they do procreate, that it requires a male god and a female god. Can you imagine a God with such creative abilities that He can just will something into existence?

The human family is made in the image of God in that it images the Holy Trinity. The two become one and the love between the two results in a third, a very real person. This is the Holy Trinity. God, from eternity, is a family; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three divine Persons have been in this relationship from eternity, without beginning and without end. It is a mistake to believe that being made in God’s image means that we can basically look in a mirror (male and female) and then assume that God must be like us in all ways because He made us in His image. When we go down that road, we end up making God in our image instead.

Very well said - especially the last sentence. LDS doctrine has in effect reversed the proper understanding of what it means to be made in the image of God. Their beliefs make God in our image, not the other way around. LDS belief in a heavenly parents (plural) is the logical extrapolation of their doctrines of celestial marriage and eternal progression, i.e., if men and women can marry for eternity and become gods procreating for eternity, then so it must also be with God the Father. Therefore there must be a heavenly mother. This line of reasoning becomes very complicated very quickly. Now you have to deal with the question of where did heavenly mother come from. Another god above her is the only logical explanation. And for that matter, where did God the Father come from? Another god above him is again the only logical explanation.

In general Mormons don’t go there. They claim this is because no further revelation has been given, but I suspect there is also an underlying realization that when one thinks this through, one quickly hits a wall. One soon realizes that in order for this system to work, there has to be an unlimited progression of gods above gods above gods - a heavenly economy so vast and complicated as to defy all comprehension. When Joseph Smith invented the doctrines of celestial marriage and eternal progression, he obviously didn’t think through the ramifications of those doctrines and see how quickly they unravel under the slightest scrutiny. It’s like covering up lies with more lies. The farther you go, the more outrageous the lies have to be to cover the previous lie. Try having this discussion with any Mormon and the answer is always the same - *“That hasn’t been revealed.” *It’s a simple trick to end the discussion quickly so one doesn’t have to go there.

 

[KathleenGee]

And the other lie, that all other creeds after the death of the last apostle are an abomination.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

BYUChemAlum;

Welcome to the forums and thanks for the link to the article. While I find it interesting that the LDS church is looking to the OT to support the notion of a Heavenly Mother, I’d like to know why it is she does not play a more prominent role in LDS theology. Why have there been no further revelations of her role in the LDS deity. It is obvious that she plays a substantial part in our creation from an LDS theological perspective. Yet, there has been no revelation to restore what has apparently been obscured (by LDS thinking) according to the article.

Again, thanks and welcome.

Peace,
Robert

Thank you for your welcome.

I am not sure what more prominent role Heavenly Mother could play in LDS theology. LDS accept that she exists, and that we are born of Heavenly Parents (as affirmed in our The Family: A Proclamation to the World). LDS do not believe that prayers should be addressed to her, since we believe that prayers should only be addressed to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ. So, in our belief, revelation has indeed been given to state that there is a Heavenly Mother, and that we are born of Heavenly Parents. Since we accept a belief in continuing revelation, perhaps more will be revealed at a later point, however for now, we believe that this is all that has been revealed.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

Try having this discussion with any Mormon and the answer is always the same - *“That hasn’t been revealed.” *It’s a simple trick to end the discussion quickly so one doesn’t have to go there.

No, it is not a “trick” (sigh). “It has not been revealed” is the actual answer, since we can’t know what God has not revealed to us. Anything said is thus speculative.

 

[KathleenGee]

The speculation comes about from the outside regarding the course of events after the death of the last Apostle inspite of historical documents attesting to the valid existence of the universal apostolic Church.

 

[Chris-WA]

No, it is not a “trick” (sigh). “It has not been revealed” is the actual answer, since we can’t know what God has not revealed to us. Anything said is thus speculative.

Did not Joseph Smith teach the LDS church many things about God the Father that has never been officially revealed in Mormon scripture? Please don’t tell me that your founding prophet was guility of speculation when he taught the following:

1. God was once a man.
2. God progressed to godhood.
3. God has a god above Him.
4. There are limitless gods.

 

[Chris-WA]

No, it is not a “trick” (sigh). “It has not been revealed” is the actual answer, since we can’t know what God has not revealed to us. Anything said is thus speculative.

But here is the deal - they don’t even want to discuss it. It’s like a taboo topic or something. Here is how the conversation goes:

Non-Mormon: “So you believe in a heavenly mother.”
Mormon: “Yes.”
Non-Mormon: “So God has a wife or wives?”
Mormon: “It hasn’t been revealed.”
Non-Mormon: “So if there is a heavenly mother, some other god must have created her?”
Mormon: “It hasn’t been revealed.”
Non-Mormon: “Well, isn’t that a logical conclusion?”
Mormon: “It hasn’t been revealed.”

You see what I’m getting at. It’s like Mormons are almost embarrassed to talk about the subject. It logically leads to discussions they just don’t want to have. There seems to be this block that when it comes to certain subjects, Mormons just would rather discontinue the discussion, as if they would really rather not think about those things.

 

[SteveVH]

Thank you for your welcome.

I am not sure what more prominent role Heavenly Mother could play in LDS theology. LDS accept that she exists, and that we are born of Heavenly Parents (as affirmed in our The Family: A Proclamation to the World). LDS do not believe that prayers should be addressed to her, since we believe that prayers should only be addressed to God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ. So, in our belief, revelation has indeed been given to state that there is a Heavenly Mother, and that we are born of Heavenly Parents. Since we accept a belief in continuing revelation, perhaps more will be revealed at a later point, however for now, we believe that this is all that has been revealed.

BYU, do you find it the least bit strange that Jesus never made mention of heavenly Mother? The One, the only One, who would actually be in a position to know, not once speaks about His “heavenly mother”.

I think Chris-WA made a great point in that when you begin with the premise that a preconceived notion (celestial marriage and eternal progression) is true, you are then forced to carry out that logic in your theology. It is evident that this places you in quite the pickle because the logic just doesn’t carry forward. At some point, like it or not, you must arrive at the uncaused cause, one who is not the product of parents; one who the rest of Christianity calls God. He transcends humanness and the physical world and is infinitely and eternally above them. He creates with His will; with a wave of His hand, from nothing. Why is it so difficult for Mormons to imagine a God so great? Why the resistance? This has always puzzled me.

 

[KathleenGee]

Is it because one wants to have faith in man and to gain possession of God’s creation?

 

[SteveVH]

Very well said - especially the last sentence. LDS doctrine has in effect reversed the proper understanding of what it means to be made in the image of God. Their beliefs make God in our image, not the other way around. LDS belief in a heavenly parents (plural) is the logical extrapolation of their doctrines of celestial marriage and eternal progression, i.e., if men and women can marry for eternity and become gods procreating for eternity, then so it must also be with God the Father. Therefore there must be a heavenly mother. This line of reasoning becomes very complicated very quickly. Now you have to deal with the question of where did heavenly mother come from. Another god above her is the only logical explanation. And for that matter, where did God the Father come from? Another god above him is again the only logical explanation.

In general Mormons don’t go there. They claim this is because no further revelation has been given, but I suspect there is also an underlying realization that when one thinks this through, one quickly hits a wall. One soon realizes that in order for this system to work, there has to be an unlimited progression of gods above gods above gods - a heavenly economy so vast and complicated as to defy all comprehension. When Joseph Smith invented the doctrines of celestial marriage and eternal progression, he obviously didn’t think through the ramifications of those doctrines and see how quickly they unravel under the slightest scrutiny. It’s like covering up lies with more lies. The farther you go, the more outrageous the lies have to be to cover the previous lie. Try having this discussion with any Mormon and the answer is always the same - *“That hasn’t been revealed.” *It’s a simple trick to end the discussion quickly so one doesn’t have to go there.

Chris, thanks for your comments and I couldn’t agree more. Beginning with a preconeived notion and then bending your theology to fit that notion results in nothing but confusion.

God bless.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

Did not Joseph Smith teach the LDS church many things about God the Father that has never been officially revealed in Mormon scripture? Please don’t tell me that your founding prophet was guility of speculation when he taught the following:

1. God was once a man.
2. God progressed to godhood.
3. God has a god above Him.
4. There are limitless gods.

Firstly (not commenting on the numbered points above), as I’m sure you are aware, we believe that prophets are not infallible in everything they say. They, as we all are, are entitled to their opinions and speculations, and there is nothing “guilty” (if that word is being used to denote something negative) about it.

Also, LDS do not limit revelation to just what is in the Standard Works. While the Standard Works obviously have a unique place in revelation, we also accept revelation in other settings, such as in General Conference.

What I was responding to directly was your referring to “it has not been revealed” as a “trick” (as if LDS are being intentionally dishonest or deceptive). It is a perfectly valid response to topics where no definitive binding revelation has been given on an issue, though people have speculated and extrapolated based on what has been revealed.