LDS - Belief in Heavenly Mother; Prayers?

[SteveVH]

So you want us to make something up? Sorry, when it comes to truths, we will stick to what God has revealed when declaring them. Anything beyond that is the speculations of men.
To say there is no revealed answer is the only answer that can be given.

No, I don’t want you to make something up. It’s really a question of reason and logic, as well as revealed truth. You are obviously not going to debate that aspect so I will accept your answer. We should probably move on.

 

[SteveVH]

Modern scientists (or the great majority of them at least) don’t seem to agree with that. They think that evolution and occurrence by chance is a more logical explanation for the existence of the universe. You have not sown that your (Catholic) theology of the origin of Deity is more “logical” than the Mormon one (and that is only one interpretation of Mormonism, not the only one).

Well I don’t look to scientists to explain eternity or the nature of my Creator. Those are not the questions they can answer. At best they struggle with explaining creation and are contantly correcting and changing their conclusions and theories. As for my logic, I understand that if you agreed with it you could not agree with Mormon theology. Protest all you want, but the truth remains the truth. This truth has been revealed, as I demonstrated with the quote from John who very explicitly and very plainly states that nothing came to be without Him. That would include intelligences and matter. The reason and logic comes from some of the greatest minds in history. Put it all together and I find it very convincing. I’m sorry that you do not see it.

I was not aware that there is another Mormon explanation. Would you mind sharing that?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think I am going to make tracts directed to Mormon women to learn more about Mary.

Rebecca, want to help?

I wouldn’t know how to begin such an approach. Mormon women are so conditioned to think of Mary as an “ordinary woman given an extraordinary task”; they can’t see how God made her extraordinary. The reaction I’ve seen from Mormon women in regards to hearing about Mary as she truly is, is one of almost being repulsed by her.

They are taught they are made in the image of a “heavenly mother”, but cannot seek the counsel or advise of this “mother”. She is hidden, veiled, by a distorted form of “patriarchy”.

Mormons have made their god in the image of man. I remember clearly, as a child and teen, thinking that the males around me were what god must be like. I rejected that god, as false, and still do. I see so many Mormon women in my life who, not knowing who God IS, seek a shadow of him in their husbands, fathers and even sons.

The effect is not lost on Mormon men. I see it, now and then, in the Mormon men who post here. That undeniable pride, and arrogance, that comes from thinking one is a god, or soon will be. It is an infection began by Joseph Smith and his narcissistic view of “man as god”, which of course, is how he had to have viewed himself in order to come up with such ideas. It is so damaging, to men and women, to think they are gods. Pride mixed with always being beaten down for not being perfect, as gods should be.

Turn to Christ, dear Mormon women. He is the way, not your spouse or any one else. Mary is our Star, who guides us to her Son. We are made perfect through Him, not through our own works or man-made “ordinances”.

Peace.

 

[Javl]

Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t; but you are inventing your own religion that nobody has heard of except yourself!

As you say then. I guess you know more than the Jews do.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

As you say then. I guess you know more than the Jews do.

Perhaps I do, how do you know? And why shouldn’t I? The Jews don’t all believe the same thing anyway. There are as many diverse opinions among the Jews about these things as can be found anywhere else. Here is an interesting article in Wikipedia on the Lost Tribes.

 

[KathleenGee]

Rebecca,

I remember reading a post by a former Mormon woman, now Catholic who asked her bishop if she and others could learn about Mary, and his answer is what they give.

Mary is the one who will crush the head of the serpent… not Christ because He is God. Mary vs Satan. In Genesis 2. Mary, the Great Sign that appeared in the sky…I see that most evident in our Lady of Fatima…and her appearance in Guadalupe.

I acknowledge that…and picked up on it…but the Mormon men I met ended up really liking me and I was trying to relate to them on common and shared principles. I think my relationship with Mary gave them an opening…and we shared some ideas on Revelations and the times we live in.

Mary is the image, the Great Sign that appeared in the sky. She represents all of us, our greatest advocate at death. She gives women a new dignity in Christ, and drawsa us closer to God.

About the Mormon men here…I see so many open windows…

 

[Ex_aedibus]

I grew up in Mormonism and yes, I knew of “heavenly mother”. In fact, at just about every Mormon funeral I went to, we would sing the hymn “O My Father” by one of Joseph Smith’s (and later Brigham Young’s) plural wives, Eliza Roxy Snow. That hymn makes mention of both heavenly Father and heavenly mother. But that is the only place in Mormon hymnody where she is mentioned.

Some Mormon feminists were in favour of praying to heavenly mother. Some got in serious ecclesiastical hot water over it. It has been condemned by senior church leadership all the way to the prophet himself.

As my mother taught me, heavenly Father is just like any good husband and father. The reason that we know next to nothing about his wife is that he didn’t want people taking her name in vain.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,

About the Mormon men here…I see so many open windows…

I see people who have to stop believing they are gods…not an easy thing to give up. Pride, ego, desire for power…tools that are being used to keep people in darkness.

Smith unleashed a great evil. May God have mercy.

 

[KathleenGee]

What Smith did was create a belief system to fulfill the partaking of the forbidden fruit of Adam.

And I do see alot of control over women. When I went online to look at Mormonism more after reading those texts at the LDS bookstore, it also mentioned the use of Prozac being the highest in Utah…

I must say that the Mormon professional I worked with also referred Prozac for housewives…

Mormon women are really being denied the New Eve – Mary and a restoration of their own dignity. The curse of Adam on women would be that they would be under their husbands, not equal partakers. I believe the husband is the head of the family, but he is not the judge of my soul and salvation. And our priests teach us not to submit when the husband is not in the spirit of Christ. Women know what that means.

 

[Javl]

Perhaps I do, how do you know? And why shouldn’t I? The Jews don’t all believe the same thing anyway. There are as many diverse opinions among the Jews about these things as can be found anywhere else. Here is an interesting article in Wikipedia on the Lost Tribes.

I “know” about you the same way you “know” about me. As for the Jews, the only truth in and about Judaism can be found only among the Orthodox. The Reformed and Conservatives of Judaism are the Protestant revisionists who have deleted almost all of “The Law” to satisfy their conception of what it should be. I have studied under all three and at present continue under the Hassidim. What, may I ask, are your credentials?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

I “know” about you the same way you “know” about me. As for the Jews, the only truth in and about Judaism can be found only among the Orthodox. The Reformed and Conservatives of Judaism are the Protestant revisionists who have deleted almost all of “The Law” to satisfy their conception of what it should be. I have studied under all three and at present continue under the Hassidim. What, may I ask, are your credentials?

The Orthodox are the extremists of modern Judaism. The are the present day equivalents of “scribes and Pharisees”. My credentials are latter-day revelations of God, which you know nothing about, because you don’t believe in them and therefore you cannot learn anything from them.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think the history of Mormonism, beginning with polygamy, Mormons saying they believe in Jesus as their personal Savior, but preventing and condemning any relationship with Mary I think is the ultimate final control of Mormon women.

I think Mormon women who come to Mary will find a new approach to Christ, and deepen their relationship with Him, and help them become stronger women.

Rebecca, I will see what I can do in this neck of the woods…the Mormon women are under alot of control for their own salvation…Christ called to set us free…and that includes we women folk as well!

 

[SteveVH]

I think the history of Mormonism, beginning with polygamy, Mormons saying they believe in Jesus as their personal Savior, but preventing and condemning any relationship with Mary I think is the ultimate final control of Mormon women.

I think Mormon women who come to Mary will find a new approach to Christ, and deepen their relationship with Him, and help them become stronger women.

Rebecca, I will see what I can do in this neck of the woods…the Mormon women are under alot of control for their own salvation…Christ called to set us free…and that includes we women folk as well!

What happens to those Mormon women who cannot find a husband? Just curious.

 

[Javl]

The Orthodox are the extremists of modern Judaism. The are the present day equivalents of “scribes and Pharisees”. My credentials are latter-day revelations of God, which you know nothing about, because you don’t believe in them and therefore you cannot learn anything from them.

Sorry, Zerinus, but I cannot accept what you call your credentials since I know that they are man made and are definitely not from God. If they were from God, He would have made them available to everyone and not a select few, as it states in the Bible,

As for the Orthodox, they may be the modern day Scribes and Pharisees, but they are the only ones who keep not only the whole Law but also an acurate history of Judaism. Much of Christianity is based on Orthodox Judaism.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

Sorry, Zerinus, but I cannot accept what you call your credentials since I know that they are man made and are definitely not from God. If they were from God, He would have made them available to everyone and not a select few, as it states in the Bible.

Of course they are available to everyone. But everyone does not accept them, in the same way that not everyone accepts the Bible.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have personally worked with Orthodox Jews and their perspective and understanding parallels knowledgeable Roman Catholics, as well as their perspectives and sensitivities regarding the generalalities in life.

We have discussed erroneous thinking and practices and I doubt they would find any continuity in their faith in Mormonism because of their religious perspective. I have found them well balanced, well educated, centrists, and not at all extreme.

One of them told me the extreme are who you find in Israel…if they see you driving your car around on the Sabbath, they could shoot you dead. I know their ID but won’t give it here.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I grew up in Mormonism and yes, I knew of “heavenly mother”. In fact, at just about every Mormon funeral I went to, we would sing the hymn “O My Father” by one of Joseph Smith’s (and later Brigham Young’s) plural wives, Eliza Roxy Snow. That hymn makes mention of both heavenly Father and heavenly mother. But that is the only place in Mormon hymnody where she is mentioned.

Some Mormon feminists were in favour of praying to heavenly mother. Some got in serious ecclesiastical hot water over it. It has been condemned by senior church leadership all the way to the prophet himself.

As my mother taught me, heavenly Father is just like any good husband and father. The reason that we know next to nothing about his wife is that he didn’t want people taking her name in vain.

Hello and thanks for answering my post. Do you have any information about these women who got in trouble for pushing within the LDS church for adoration of a Heavenly Mother? Perhaps a link or a name of an article? Truly, a very interesting subject that seems to be unique to Mormonism (at least among modern religions that claim their origins are within Christianity). Also, do you know of any new testament references used by LDS members to support the notion of a heavenly Father and Mother producing human spirit offspring?

Thanks for any help. Really trying to understand this. It seems so far fetched from my perspective, and I just really wonder if there’s anything supporting it outside of mormonism’s claim to the modern day revelation of Joseph Smith? It seems to me that if the only real support is the modern revelations of mormonism, the claim of a heavenly mother is a novelty that rises or falls depending upon one’s acceptance of the validity of modern revelation. I’m just not convinced that is sufficient basis for setting aside what I believe to be solid apostolic teaching that has come down to us faithfully from the Christ through the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Robert

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hello and thanks for answering my post. Do you have any information about these women who got in trouble for pushing within the LDS church for adoration of a Heavenly Mother? Perhaps a link or a name of an article? Truly, a very interesting subject that seems to be unique to Mormonism (at least among modern religions that claim their origins are within Christianity). Also, do you know of any new testament references used by LDS members to support the notion of a heavenly Father and Mother producing human spirit offspring?

Thanks for any help. Really trying to understand this. It seems so far fetched from my perspective, and I just really wonder if there’s anything supporting it outside of mormonism’s claim to the modern day revelation of Joseph Smith? It seems to me that if the only real support is the modern revelations of mormonism, the claim of a heavenly mother is a novelty that rises or falls depending upon one’s acceptance of the validity of modern revelation. I’m just not convinced that is sufficient basis for setting aside what I believe to be solid apostolic teaching that has come down to us faithfully from the Christ through the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Robert

There is a feminist movement within the Mormon church, which advocates for priesthood for women and for praying to the Mormon “Heavenly Mother”. Women who publish or publicly speak on these topics are usually disciplined with excommunication or disfellowshipping.

Maxine Hanks, author of Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism, published in 1992. She was one of the September Six, which is the name given to 6 Mormon scholars who were excommunicated or disfellowshipped by the Mormon church September 1993.

Janice Allred, author of God the Mother: And Other Theological Essays Also excommunicated.

Lynne Kanavel Whitesides, also one of the September Six. She was outspoken in support for worshiping the Mormon Heavenly Mother. She was disfellowshipped, one of the conditions for her return was to cease talking about the Heavenly Mother. She remains a non-member Mormon,active in the Mormon church.

Margaret Merrill Toscano addresses the topic and the discussion of it (or lack thereof) in the Mormon church in her essay “*Is There a Place For Heavenly Mother In Mormon Theology”. *She is the wife of one of the September Six (Paul Toscano). She was excommunicated in 2000.

…when you start to go down this rabbit hole it becomes more and more obvious that the religion has been made up as it goes along…by men with an American 19th century mindset towards women.

 

[Javl]

Of course they are available to everyone. But everyone does not accept them, in the same way that not everyone accepts the Bible.

They may be available to everyone but I am very certain that they are not from God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

They may be available to everyone but I am very certain that they are not from God.

That is okay, and thanks for your discussion. All I can say is that I disagree with you.