LDS Belief on the Need to Sin In Order Understand Joy

[Job314]

We’ve gone round and round because you change scripture, without any explanation other than, that is what you think scripture should say.

Sorry for the confusion, I’m pretty sure I’ve only used a couple of scriptures though…

Well, Satan tells enough of a truth to make the lies sound plausible. It doesn’t matter, though, as going against a commandment of God is a sin. “The end justifies the means.”, does not make an sin, good.
What we disagree on, at its root, is your assertion that Adam and Eve wouldn’t receive all the Good that God had prepared for them, without defying God. Sin, being rewarded by God, is not the message of truth found in any of our scriptures.
Don’t know why you think God created us in an impossibly hopeless state that required sin, in order to fulfill a hope for all the Good that God has to give to us, By this logic, an innocent baby who has known nothing but love, wellbeing and goodness, has no happiness or joy. Or conversely, a child born to poverty and hunger, and who dies before their second birthday, is happier than anyone else on earth.

Yes, but we go back to the fact that I don’t believe they sinned.

I feel I’ve been as clear as I can be on my logic ie. If opposites didn’t exist, we would be unable to comprehend the good things we had. So I disagree with both your scenarios, simply because they’re incomplete. A baby who has known “nothing but love, wellbeing and happiness” will still experience pain, discomfort, illness and the other effects of this fallen world. The child born to poverty and hunger will know the happiness that comes from finding food, being able to love one more day.

I’ll try once more to explain my thinking. If these things didn’t exist and never existed. If there were never any instances of pain or sorrow or suffering or anything negative (that is what life in the garden of Eden was like) then Adam and Eve (and their descendants) could not comprehend the opposite - joy, happiness etc.

If you lived in a pure white room with a bright white light on 24/7, and that was all you’d ever known, how would you understand what darkness was? If all you’d ever eaten were desserts and sweet things, how could someone explain bitterness to you? Just think about it for a while.

 

[lax16]

Yes, but we go back to the fact that I don’t believe they sinned.

1. Did God command Adam and Eve to not eat of the fruit?

2). Is breaking a command of God a sin?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Sorry for the confusion, I’m pretty sure I’ve only used a couple of scriptures though…

Yes, but we go back to the fact that I don’t believe they sinned.

I feel I’ve been as clear as I can be on my logic ie. If opposites didn’t exist, we would be unable to comprehend the good things we had. So I disagree with both your scenarios, simply because they’re incomplete. A baby who has known “nothing but love, wellbeing and happiness” will still experience pain, discomfort, illness and the other effects of this fallen world. The child born to poverty and hunger will know the happiness that comes from finding food, being able to love one more day.

I’ll try once more to explain my thinking. If these things didn’t exist and never existed. If there were never any instances of pain or sorrow or suffering or anything negative (that is what life in the garden of Eden was like) then Adam and Eve (and their descendants) could not comprehend the opposite - joy, happiness etc.

If you lived in a pure white room with a bright white light on 24/7, and that was all you’d ever known, how would you understand what darkness was? If all you’d ever eaten were desserts and sweet things, how could someone explain bitterness to you? Just think about it for a while.

Repeating the same ill conceived ideas does not address anything I said.

 

[Job314]

Repeating the same ill conceived ideas does not address anything I said.

Except that it did address it… Because you used examples that in a fallen world don’t exist. The logic is not that we personally need to sin to know happiness, but that of no one in the history of the world sinned or experienced suffering, it would be impossible for anyone to comprehend anything different. Can you explain how we could?

 

[gazelam]

What about Mormons that claim to have followed the Holy Spirit only to have it not turn out well? If this were true, would there ever be a temple marriage that ends in divorce?

Since when is the Holy Spirit a shield from pain?

Regarding John the Baptist who was jailed and beheaded, Luke 1:15 (KJV) says:

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

Of Christ who suffered more than any of us do, Acts 10:38 (KJV) says:

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Mary was told in Luke 2:35 (KJV):

Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also…

Christianity has never promised a pain-free mortal life.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Except that it did address it… Because you used examples that in a fallen world don’t exist. The logic is not that we personally need to sin to know happiness, but that of no one in the history of the world sinned or experienced suffering, it would be impossible for anyone to comprehend anything different. Can you explain how we could?

No, I said you change scripture.

Your hypothetical question has been answered.

Other than that your argument comes from dualism, which in Catholicism, is a heresy. Dualism views evil as the necessary opposing force to good. Catholic doctrine is, both physical and moral evil are to be conceived as some form of privation or defect of being, not as positive entity. newadvent.org/cathen/05169a.htm

Evil does not need to exist in order for Good to exist. That is one of the basic flaws of your argument. God is Good, and in him exists no evil, and never has. God does not desire evil, so that you can know good

 

[lax16]

Since when is the Holy Spirit a shield from pain?

Regarding John the Baptist who was jailed and beheaded, Luke 1:15 (KJV) says:

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

Of Christ who suffered more than any of us do, Acts 10:38 (KJV) says:

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Mary was told in Luke 2:35 (KJV):

Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also…

Christianity has never promised a pain-free mortal life.

How is this an answer to my question regarding divorce in Temple weddings?

You claim if one follows the whisper of the Holy Spirit they will not be led astray. Either one did not pray to the HS before getting married in the temple to make sure they were marrying the right person -or- one did pray to the HS and it was the wrong person despite the whisperings.

So…The Holy Spirit would prompt a person to marry the wrong individual so that they could feel pain?

 

[Hatikvah]

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. (James 1:2-3)

Temptation to sin is a trial; so perhaps we need temptation of sin to experience joy as we may today?

 

[gazelam]

How is this an answer to my question regarding divorce in Temple weddings?

I was assuming that you were referring to a divorce of a marriage solemnized in an LDS temple as a painful experience and you were asking how following the guidance of the Holy Spirit could lead to a painful experience. However, you may have been referring to divorce as the undoing of a sacramental act and were asking how following the Holy Spirit could lead to the undoing of a sacramental act. Or, you could have been referring to something else. Feel free to clarify since I believe I answered how someone following the guidance of the Holy Spirit could have painful experiences.

You claim if one follows the whisper of the Holy Spirit they will not be led astray.

This is standard LDS belief and I’d be suprised if any Christian denominations disagreed on this point. (See John 14:26)

Either one did not pray to the HS before getting married in the temple to make sure they were marrying the right person -or- one did pray to the HS and it was the wrong person despite the whisperings.

Or perhaps they needed to be schooled in adversity and the Lord did not specifically warn against a marriage that He knew would fail in order for one of both to be spiritually refined in the process. You may say it’s the wrong person if the marriage failed but it could be the right situation to address a spiritual shortcoming (like, say a lack of patience) in one or both of the spouses. (For the record, Latter-day Saints are taught to only pray to the Father in Christ’s name. We don’t pray to Christ or to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit provides the guidance from the Father.)

So…The Holy Spirit would prompt a person to marry the wrong individual so that they could feel pain?

The Holy Spirit could hypothetically prompt someone to enter into a path that causes pain in the short run in order to bring about a greater good later. Was Christ wrong in selecting Judas Iscariot as an apostle? As you know Judas betrayed Jesus, Jesus died for our sins, “and with his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:5 KJV)

I hope this helps…

 

[lax16]

I was assuming that you were referring to a divorce of a marriage solemnized in an LDS temple as a painful experience and you were asking how following the guidance of the Holy Spirit could lead to a painful experience. However, you may have been referring to divorce as the undoing of a sacramental act and were asking how following the Holy Spirit could lead to the undoing of a sacramental act. Or, you could have been referring to something else. Feel free to clarify since I believe I answered how someone following the guidance of the Holy Spirit could have painful experiences.

The couples I know that were married in the temple and are no longer married (or Mormon for that matter) do not consider their failed marriage only as a painful experience. They view it as a mistake. Alcoholism, abuse, etc. is far more than a painful experience.

I am referring to the statement that you made that the whisperings of the Holy Spirit would not lead one astray. A failed marriage that one prayed about, and claimed to get an answer, calls in to question that the HS would lead someone into a bad situation.

This is standard LDS belief and I’d be suprised if any Christian denominations disagreed on this point. (See John 14:26)

I have never heard of anyone, expect Mormons, claim to have “the answer” to certain questions in life. Like I have shared before, our (former) Mormon friend prayed about putting his son on ritalin and told us the HS told him to do it. Years later, their son was battling drug abuse and they were told it was brought about by his use of ritalin.

So, did he not really hear the HS? Or did the HS want their son hooked on drugs?

(the father did a mission btw and was very active in his faith at the time this happened. Now the family is torn apart, no longer Mormon, living with others not married and have very negative views of the Mormon church) This is what the HS had in mind?

Or perhaps they needed to be schooled in adversity and the Lord did not specifically warn against a marriage that He knew would fail in order for one of both to be spiritually refined in the process. You may say it’s the wrong person if the marriage failed but it could be the right situation to address a spiritual shortcoming (like, say a lack of patience) in one or both of the spouses. (For the record, Latter-day Saints are taught to only pray to the Father in Christ’s name. We don’t pray to Christ or to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit provides the guidance from the Father.)

A woman needs to get married at 19 due to tremendous pressure not to be an old maid (in their words), is in an abusive marriage that leads to divorce and ends up leaving the Mormon faith. That does not sound like anything God wants us to be a part of.

The Holy Spirit could hypothetically prompt someone to enter into a path that causes pain in the short run in order to bring about a greater good later. Was Christ wrong in selecting Judas Iscariot as an apostle? As you know Judas betrayed Jesus, Jesus died for our sins, “and with his stripes we are healed” (Isaiah 53:5 KJV)

I hope this helps…

A greater good when?

Nice try though trying to explain why so many temple weddings end in divorce if the HS had a hand in it. I don’t buy it. I see the fruit of these weddings and do not believe God wants us in harms way.

 

[lax16]

How can one be oblivious to right and wrong when it is clearly spelled out by God?

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit. They disobeyed his command(ment).

Is disobeying God’s command(ment)s a sin or not?

any takers?

 

[Job314]

No, I said you change scripture.

Your hypothetical question has been answered.

Other than that your argument comes from dualism, which in Catholicism, is a heresy. Dualism views evil as the necessary opposing force to good. Catholic doctrine is, both physical and moral evil are to be conceived as some form of privation or defect of being, not as positive entity. newadvent.org/cathen/05169a.htm

Evil does not need to exist in order for Good to exist. That is one of the basic flaws of your argument. God is Good, and in him exists no evil, and never has. God does not desire evil, so that you can know good

I’ve read and re-read the responses here, and I’m yet to find someone that has answered it. Perhaps you could enlighten me? If sorrow and pain didn’t exist, how would one comprehend happiness and joy? (The total absence of these things is what I’m talking about, not simply the absence of it in one’s life)

 

[lax16]

I’ve read and re-read the responses here, and I’m yet to find someone that has answered it. Perhaps you could enlighten me? If sorrow and pain didn’t exist, how would one comprehend happiness and joy? (The total absence of these things is what I’m talking about, not simply the absence of it in one’s life)

Having a healthy baby is a great joy even if one has never lost a child. We don’t need to suffer to know goodness.

Being happy in a marriage can be enjoyed by a couple never married before, right?

Eating a delicious meal tastes good even if one has never eaten a terrible meal, no?

 

[Job314]

Having a healthy baby is a great joy even if one has never lost a child. We don’t need to suffer to know goodness.

Being happy in a marriage can be enjoyed by a couple never married before, right?

Eating a delicious meal tastes good even if one has never eaten a terrible meal, no?

I think you missed the part about if there were a total absence of sorrow and pain ie. If they did not ever exist, in any form.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’ve read and re-read the responses here, and I’m yet to find someone that has answered it. Perhaps you could enlighten me? If sorrow and pain didn’t exist, how would one comprehend happiness and joy? (The total absence of these things is what I’m talking about, not simply the absence of it in one’s life)

The answer is, it would be as God created us. We hold no belief that God withholds joy from us, unless and until we sin.

 

[fhansen]

I’ve read and re-read the responses here, and I’m yet to find someone that has answered it. Perhaps you could enlighten me? If sorrow and pain didn’t exist, how would one comprehend happiness and joy? (The total absence of these things is what I’m talking about, not simply the absence of it in one’s life)

Do you think there will be evil in heaven? Again, we may learn to appreciate the good here, the experience of evil having brought good into sharp relief, making the two identifiable, but this is only to help us choose the good alone, in the end, where joy and happiness will be complete without any hint of evil present.

 

[Job314]

Do you think there will be evil in heaven? Again, we may learn to appreciate the good here, the experience of evil having brought good into sharp relief, making the two identifiable, but this is only to help us choose the good alone, in the end, where joy and happiness will be complete without any hint of evil present.

No, of course not. But we will still remember what it was like to be in pain, to experience sadness etc. so we will still be able to comprehend and identify that we are happy.

You make the point I’m trying to make very eloquently, thank you. We learn to appreciate and identify good from evil, none of which would be possible without the fall. We would exist in the garden forever, not being able to identify between good (which brings happiness) and evil (which brings sorrow), therefore our state of being would be a state of innocence yes, but a state where we could not identify that we were happy.

 

[fhansen]

No, of course not. But we will still remember what it was like to be in pain, to experience sadness etc. so we will still be able to comprehend and identify that we are happy.

You make the point I’m trying to make very eloquently, thank you. We learn to appreciate and identify good from evil, none of which would be possible without the fall. We would exist in the garden forever, not being able to identify between good (which brings happiness) and evil (which brings sorrow), therefore our state of being would be a state of innocence yes, but a state where we could not identify that we were happy.

I think that what we learn is* where true happiness lies. Does it lie in lesser, created things-which Adam set us on a course to pursue-or does it lie in God, Himself, the uncreated? As Aquinas put it, “God, alone, satisfies”. But I doubt that would align with Mormon theology? It’s the basis* of Catholic theology in any case.

 

[Job314]

I think that what we learn is* where true happiness lies. Does it lie in lesser, created things-which Adam set us on a course to pursue-or does it lie in God, Himself, the uncreated? As Aquinas put it, “God, alone, satisfies”. But I doubt that would align with Mormon theology? It’s the basis* of Catholic theology in any case.

It definitely lies in God. My thought is that unless the option were there to pursue the things of this world, we wouldn’t be showing “good works” by pursuing the things of God. We would merely be taking the only option available to us.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It definitely lies in God. My thought is that unless the option were there to pursue the things of this world, we wouldn’t be showing “good works” by pursuing the things of God. We would merely be taking the only option available to us.

Yes, that is the choice Adam and Eve faced when they were tempted by the serpent, before the Fall.