LDS Belief on the Need to Sin In Order Understand Joy

[fhansen]

Thanks for the explanation, I do appreciate it. My thought though, is that the gist of the points of St Augustine and St Ambrose (amongst others) is that it was “necessary”. And necessary can only mean:

"needed to achieve a certain desired effect or result; required
resulting from necessity; inevitable ⇒ ■ the necessary consequences of your action
(logic)
(of a statement, formula, etc) true under all interpretations or in all possible circumstances
(of a proposition) determined to be true by its meaning, so that its denial would be self-contradictory
(of a property) essential, so that without it its subject would not be the entity it is
(of an inference) always yielding a true conclusion when its premises are true; valid
(of a condition) entailed by the truth of some statement or the obtaining of some state of affairs . Compare sufficient (sense 2
(philosophy) (in a nonlogical sense) expressing a law of nature, so that if it is in this sense necessary that all As are B, even although it is not contradictory to conceive of an A which is not B, we are licensed to infer that if something were an A it would have to be B
(rare) compelled, as by necessity or law; not free

It also comes from the Latin word necessārius which means indispensable, or from necesse unavoidable.

Certainly God wasn’t a bit surprised by the Fall of course, deeming creation to be worthwhile in spite of the evil He knew would occur. And planning from the beginning to use it according to His wisdom. The Church also teaches that God created His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection”. Man’s ultimate perfection was yet to be achieved, But the Fall wasn’t a necessary path, rather a detour on a journey that could’ve led straight to the more complete union with God that man is made for. Its all about our wills. The exile out of Eden was more reformative, or actually formative, rather than punitive, in nature either way…

 

[Job314]

Certainly God wasn’t a bit surprised by the Fall of course, deeming creation to be worthwhile in spite of the evil He knew would occur. And planning from the beginning to use it according to His wisdom. The Church also teaches that God created His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection”. Man’s ultimate perfection was yet to be achieved, But the Fall wasn’t a necessary path, rather a detour on a journey that could’ve led straight to the more complete union with God that man is made for. Its all about our wills. The exile out of Eden was more reformative, or actually formative, rather than punitive, in nature either way…

The exile was certainly more formative than punitive.

I would say that St. Ambrose and St. Augustine state pretty specifically that it was, in fact, necessary though.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The exile was certainly more formative than punitive.

I would say that St. Ambrose and St. Augustine state pretty specifically that it was, in fact, necessary though.

You are close.

Sin and grace, are two sides of the same coin. This is not the end of Catholic teaching on the matter. Sin is not required for grace, but in our fallen nature it necessitates for us redemption, which is a grace. Meaning, a free gift of God, that is given in love and mercy, but is not required of God in any way.

“Oh happy fault!”, is expressing a paradox.

 

[Job314]

You are close.

Sin and grace, are two sides of the same coin. This is not the end of Catholic teaching on the matter. Sin is not required for grace, but in our fallen nature it necessitates for us redemption, which is a grace. Meaning, a free gift of God, that is given in love and mercy, but is not required of God in any way.

“Oh happy fault!”, is expressing a paradox.

Of course sin is required for grace. That’s not to say we should sin more I order for grace to abound “God forbid” as has been quoted here before.

yes, the way it’s viewed is a paradox, but one that stil explicitly states that the fall of Adam and Eve, their “sin” as it is labelled, was necessary, in other words, inevitable. In other words, essential. That means therefore, that there was no scenario for them to stay in the garden. It was essential they eat the fruit so that they could experience true eternal life with God.

 

[fhansen]

Of course sin is required for grace. That’s not to say we should sin more I order for grace to abound “God forbid” as has been quoted here before.

yes, the way it’s viewed is a paradox, but one that stil explicitly states that the fall of Adam and Eve, their “sin” as it is labelled, was necessary, in other words, inevitable. In other words, essential. That means therefore, that there was no scenario for them to stay in the garden. It was essential they eat the fruit so that they could experience true eternal life with God.

I disagree with this. Grace is simply an expression of God’s love. To be or remain in communion with Him is to possess-or be in the state of-this grace. Grace may abound where sin abounds but only because God never abandoned man; He comes after us, His wayward creation; love does that by its nature.

The Fall simply gives man a taste of death, the experience of life apart from Him, while still being a part of, and surrounded by, the good of His creation. The Prodigal Son may’ve come to appreciate his father better than the son who stayed home, but the father always lavished His love on the non-prodigal. According to the Eastern tradition both sons were lost, but that doesn’t mean both couldn’t be found, be awakened-or even further awakened- to the goodness, trustworthiness, and love of God, and of their absolute need for Him in order to truly have life and life abundantly.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Of course sin is required for grace. That’s not to say we should sin more I order for grace to abound “God forbid” as has been quoted here before.

yes, the way it’s viewed is a paradox, but one that stil explicitly states that the fall of Adam and Eve, their “sin” as it is labelled, was necessary, in other words, inevitable. In other words, essential. That means therefore, that there was no scenario for them to stay in the garden. It was essential they eat the fruit so that they could experience true eternal life with God.

Well, you’re putting a Mormon spin on Catholic teaching. A Catholic would never say essential. As I said, grace is a gift and it is not required that God gives us life. God is love, and so our life that is restored to us, is evidence of God’s love. It is not God’s testimony about the virtues of sin.

 

[Horton]

Of course sin is required for grace. That’s not to say we should sin more I order for grace to abound “God forbid” as has been quoted here before.

yes, the way it’s viewed is a paradox, but one that stil explicitly states that the fall of Adam and Eve, their “sin” as it is labelled, was necessary, in other words, inevitable. In other words, essential. That means therefore, that there was no scenario for them to stay in the garden. It was essential they eat the fruit so that they could experience true eternal life with God.

*bolding mine

Sin is not required for grace. Grace is a gift God gives us freely. We have the potential to obtain graces in many ways but sinning isn’t one of them. When we sin we separate ourselves from the graces of God. It is only through the sacrament of reconciliation that we can once again obtain the graces from God.

To really understand the Catholic position on this you must think outside the LDS box.

 

[fhansen]

*bolding mine

Sin is not required for grace. Grace is a gift God gives us freely. We have the potential to obtain graces in many ways but sinning isn’t one of them. When we sin we separate ourselves from the graces of God. It is only through the sacrament of reconciliation that we can once again obtain the graces from God.

To really understand the Catholic position on this you must think outside the LDS box.

God may increase grace in the face of sin: “Where sin abounds grace abounds”, but only as a means to bring us back to Him, certainly not as some kind of reward for or natural consequence of sin. I think other verses help complement each other in explaining the role of sin and grace, how God can bring an even greater good out of evil.

Such as, “We love Him because He first loved us” or “He who is forgiven much, loves much”. A step into the pigsty can certainly help, with the additional help of grace, to turn us back to God. I don’t think Adam loved much. I think that’s what we’re here to learn-to get started on.

 

[Horton]

God may increase grace in the face of sin: “Where sin abounds grace abounds”, but only as a means to bring us back to Him, certainly not as some kind of reward for or natural consequence of sin. I think other verses help complement each other in explaining the role of sin and grace, how God can bring an even greater good out of evil.

Such as, “We love Him because He first loved us” or “He who is forgiven much, loves much”. A step into the pigsty can certainly help, with the additional help of grace, to turn us back to God. I don’t think Adam loved much. I think that’s what we’re here to learn-to get started on.

I agree with you here. Job314 made the comment that sin is required to obtain grace and I pointed out that sin in and of itself does not bring grace. It is only through the sacrament of reconciliation that grace is obtained in regards to sin. We obtain graces in many ways, not only through contrition of sin.

 

[fhansen]

I agree with you here. Job314 made the comment that sin is required to obtain grace and I pointed out that sin in and of itself does not bring grace. It is only through the sacrament of reconciliation that grace is obtained in regards to sin. We obtain graces in many ways, not only through contrition of sin.

I agree with your post as well. Just added a little.

 

[Job314]

*bolding mine

Sin is not required for grace. Grace is a gift God gives us freely. We have the potential to obtain graces in many ways but sinning isn’t one of them. When we sin we separate ourselves from the graces of God. It is only through the sacrament of reconciliation that we can once again obtain the graces from God.

To really understand the Catholic position on this you must think outside the LDS box.

From the catechism “justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.” If everyone stayed in the garden, walking and talking with God, what help would He have given us?

I understand the catholic position I just don’t think that it’s purely biblical. I think we all form our views based on extra-biblical material that we consider to be revelation from God.

 

[Job314]

Well, you’re putting a Mormon spin on Catholic teaching. A Catholic would never say essential. As I said, grace is a gift and it is not required that God gives us life. God is love, and so our life that is restored to us, is evidence of God’s love. It is not God’s testimony about the virtues of sin.

Well, two saints (amongst others) said it was necessary. Any dictionary will give “essential” as a synonym for “necessary”.

But I’m not saying that there are virtues in sin, only that they’re a necessary evil.

 

[Horton]

From the catechism “justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.” If everyone stayed in the garden, walking and talking with God, what help would He have given us?

I understand the catholic position I just don’t think that it’s purely biblical. I think we all form our views based on extra-biblical material that we consider to be revelation from God.

That’s a big leap you made there. That in no way states sin is required for grace. And FWIW - we never claimed we are purely biblical in our teachings.

 

[Horton]

Well, two saints (amongst others) said it was necessary. Any dictionary will give “essential” as a synonym for “necessary”.

But I’m not saying that there are virtues in sin, only that they’re a necessary evil.

Sin is not a necessary evil. Do we have an opportunity to learn from it? Yes. May we use it to grow closer to God? Yes. But sin is not necessary for our salvation. That teaching just brings us back to the OP. Do we need to sin to feel joy? The Catholic answer is no, we do not. We can feel joy without sinning.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, two saints (amongst others) said it was necessary. Any dictionary will give “essential” as a synonym for “necessary”.

But I’m not saying that there are virtues in sin, only that they’re a necessary evil.

Keep up the Mormon spin! To what purpose?

 

[Horton]

Keep up the Mormon spin! To what purpose?

Why to show us he is right! After all if we are right, why then mormonism is wrong. (Yes I do know the Catholic Church is right and the LDS a false church)

 

[zaffiroborant]

Of course sin is required for grace. That’s not to say we should sin more I order for grace to abound “God forbid” as has been quoted here before.

So if sin is required to receive grace why shouldn’t you sin more, you don’t really need or want grace? It really doesn’t make sense to that the only way to get something as wonderful as God’s grace you have to do something evil. And that unless you commit evil God will withhold grace and so you for go God’s grace.

I can’t decide if “sin is required for grace” is more shocking and disturbing, or more sad and hopeless. Either way there is a darkness in this Mormon understanding that I find desolate.

 

[Job314]

So if sin is required to receive grace why shouldn’t you sin more, you don’t really need or want grace? It really doesn’t make sense to that the only way to get something as wonderful as God’s grace you have to do something evil. And that unless you commit evil God will withhold grace and so you for go God’s grace.

I can’t decide if “sin is required for grace” is more shocking and disturbing, or more sad and hopeless. Either way there is a darkness in this Mormon understanding that I find desolate.

If grace is the divine given to us that allows us to achieve eternal life, if we did not sin,we would be perfect and therefore reach eternal life on our own. Of course, no one is perfect, we all sin. And the danger of sin of course is that it easily leads to more sin and we may stop wanting to return to God and therefore not accept His grace.

 

[Job314]

Keep up the Mormon spin! To what purpose?

It’s actually not Mormon spin… Necessary and essential mean exactly the same thing… I’m just trying to come to a mutual understanding.

 

[Job314]

That’s a big leap you made there. That in no way states sin is required for grace. And FWIW - we never claimed we are purely biblical in our teachings.

I only meant that essentially this whole thread comes down to whether one accepts the catechism or one accepts the teachings of Joseph Smith. Both extra-biblical, both considered revelation by different groups.