LDS Belief on the Need to Sin In Order Understand Joy

[zaffiroborant]

I don’t see “sin causes joy”.

If I were to paste words together the way you are doing, I could say “disease causes joy” or “death causes joy” (none of which are LDS doctrine).

Rather, I’m (again) going to quote LDS scripture which says “They [referring to Adam and Eve] would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery”

So the only way to experience joy is to dispense with innocence, how do you get rid of innocence without sinning?

 

[zaffiroborant]

I came to CAF to learn about the Catholic faith, because (even though I don’t believe it) there are many people in this world that do, and I wanted to learn how they see the world, so that I may better understand and love them.

I know that I’m not going to persuade their of you of a theological argument, and I’m know neither of you are going to persuade me. We are all very passionate in the beliefs we prize, and we hold those beliefs because we feel that they resonate with truth, logic, and God. So, as none of us are going to learn something, there’s no point in having this conversation we’ve all had before. I know that, I acknowledge you choice of faith, and I’m not going to waste our time: because I respect you, your choices, and your time.

Here is an update on my quest to better understand Catholicism (which I started in February): about a month ago, I gave up. Why-- because seemingly everywhere I turned I was met with comments like the above: people going out of their way with the #1 priority of insulting my faith, rather than telling me what you believe-- after I came to your digital church doorstep asking what you believe! That tells me a really rotten picture of the priority Catholic people put on their faith and respecting fellow human beings.

I couldn’t keep doing this: trying to learn about Catholic faith while having Catholic people wreck my view of it. So I gave up.

Congratulations.

This board is for discussing non-Catholic religions, “comparing and contrasting beliefs” is the description given for the board and what you encounter here is well within the stated purpose of the board. I’m sorry that you feel unwelcome and feel that your religion is being attacked, I feel the same way on the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion board. Unfortunately that is what happens on a board like this or the Mormon board I mentioned.

If you only want to learn about Catholicism some of the other boards you’ve visited occasionally would be a better place to start, and ultimately more fruitful in gaining an understanding of Catholicism. The Traditional Catholic board alone would give you a whole different perspective. Overall this would be better for your search and leave the people here to do what they came for in comparing and contrasting non-Catholic religions.

By the way I think it is completely unfair to heap all this blame for your giving up on learning about Catholicism on the people here. They simply understand the point and description of the board and are working within those parameters. You make many statements about the LDS faith and then cop out saying you’re only here to learn when people question or don’t understand your point. One moment you want to be an LDS apologist and the next you cry foul and say you are a student. Be one or the other, but quit calling everyone a big meanie for using the board the way it was intended.

 

[Marie5890]

Jane, I agree with Zaff on this.

If your intention was to learn more about Catholicism, the Non-Catholic forum is the wrong forum.

Try the Traditional Catholics, or Liturgy and Sacremants forum. Surf around.

The Non-Catholic forum is for the contrast and discussion of comparison.

The Eastern Catholic forum is a great place if you want to understand Orthodoxy, too.

And like it has been pointed out, what you have experienced here really is no different than what we, as Catholics, experience when we go to other forums, including Mormonism.

Basically, human nature .

 

[Marie5890]

The Fulness of the Gospel: The Fall of Adam and Eve
A series examining doctrines unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Most Christian churches teach that the Fall was a tragedy, that if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit, they and all their posterity could now be living in immortal bliss in the Garden of Eden. But truth revealed to latter-day prophets teaches that the Fall was not a tragedy—without it Adam and Eve would have had no posterity. Thus, the Fall was a necessary step in Heavenly Father’s plan to bring about the eternal happiness of His children.

No Death, No Posterity, No Progress
“If Adam had not transgressed,” Lehi taught his son Jacob, “he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. …

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

“But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:22–25).

After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, their eyes were opened, and Eve expressed gladness at the opportunity their transgression made possible: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11).

Partaking of the fruit brought mortality, with its many opportunities to choose between good and evil, and enabled Adam and Eve to have children. Thus the Fall opened the door for Heavenly Father’s children to come into the world, obtain physical bodies, and participate in “the great plan of happiness” (Alma 42:8). “Therefore this life became a probationary state,” a time to learn and grow, to repent and overcome weakness, “a time to prepare to meet God” (Alma 12:24

lds.org/ensign/2006/06/the-fulness-of-the-gospel-the-fall-of-adam-and-eve?lang=eng

Even when I was LDS, the mixed message of two opposing commandments struck me as an odd way for a loving God (“Heavenly Father”) to treat his children.

Most parents I know try not to give out mixed messages to their kids. Not sure why God would do it.

 

[lax16]

I came to CAF to learn about the Catholic faith, because (even though I don’t believe it) there are many people in this world that do, and I wanted to learn how they see the world, so that I may better understand and love them.

I know that I’m not going to persuade their of you of a theological argument, and I’m know neither of you are going to persuade me. We are all very passionate in the beliefs we prize, and we hold those beliefs because we feel that they resonate with truth, logic, and God. So, as none of us are going to learn something, there’s no point in having this conversation we’ve all had before. I know that, I acknowledge you choice of faith, and I’m not going to waste our time: because I respect you, your choices, and your time.

Here is an update on my quest to better understand Catholicism (which I started in February): about a month ago, I gave up. Why-- because seemingly everywhere I turned I was met with comments like the above: people going out of their way with the #1 priority of insulting my faith, rather than telling me what you believe-- after I came to your digital church doorstep asking what you believe! That tells me a really rotten picture of the priority Catholic people put on their faith and respecting fellow human beings.

I couldn’t keep doing this: trying to learn about Catholic faith while having Catholic people wreck my view of it. So I gave up.

Congratulations.

I would like to think we could have a religious discussion without one or another feeling disrespected. I am willing to continue to try.

What do you think of what Mormon Apostle Russell Ballard says about Catholics?

tubechop.com/watch/7051576

 

[Janderich]

I said the following back in post #25:

First, we have said over and over again that sin does not bring joy. I’m not sure why you continue to say that is our belief. In fact the Book of Mormon plainly states the following, “Behold I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness” (Alma 41:10). Do you believe me when I say that we believe sin does not bring joy? If not, then answering further questions is pointless for you are not seeking to understand but to attack.

The truth of what I have said has now been fully confirmed.

 

[jane_doe]

Compiling remarks:

1. “Well you guys are jerks and say inappropriate things too, so that excuses our behavior”. No way! Yes, people of all denomination can totally cross the line and be jerks (I last called an LDS person on this very subject 19 hours ago). But are you, as people claiming to follow Christ, really going to play the “well everyone misbehaves” card as your excuse to keep up with this un-Christ-like behavior?
2. “Well if you want to learn about Catholicism you shouldn’t be here but XYZ” Ummm… does that mean I can’t find Catholics here? That based on your venue who you are changes? For the record, I do lots of lurking in the Traditional Catholic and Eastern Catholic subforms, I just don’t speak because I am unqualified to provide additional info on the subject, and instead just listen.
3. “This is a discussion board” and “it’s to compare and contrast religious views”. Does ‘compare and contrast’ mean totally not state one perspective (Catholic, in this case), totally misunderstand the other (Mormonism, in this case), and have a bashing session? Does “discuss” mean not listen and ignore those whom think differently- or treat them as something to be mocked? It’s not just Mormons either- this forum is disrespectful of most non-Catholics (Protestants are a common example).

 

[jane_doe]

You make many statements about the LDS faith and then cop out saying you’re only here to learn when people question or don’t understand your point. One moment you want to be an LDS apologist and the next you cry foul and say you are a student. Be one or the other, but quit calling everyone a big meanie for using the board the way it was intended.

Zaff, I’m here to learn more about Catholicism: not just as a lurker, but as a participant in dialogue. I am not an apologists. If someone asks a question on LDS beliefs (like this OP), then I answer because I am qualified to answer that question and can add to the discussion. If someone tries to turn it into an apologist debate, I duck out, because it’s not my purpose here. With my student listening cap on, I spend lots of time on threads listening and lurking.

 

[jane_doe]

Did you come to learn about Catholicism to find the Truth of Christ or for some other curiosity? … You didn’t have a sincere heart when you prayed about it. Sure. Is your heart sincere?

I am not here seeking ultimate Truth for myself, because I’m quite convinced I found it in LDS, and most pro-Catholic arguments I personally find very lacking.

I did come here to find the truth (lower t) of what Catholics think though, and that I was sincere about. I came in optimistically- my best friend growing up was Catholic, and I saw how when she practiced her faith it was of great good for her. I sincerely wanted to know more about how Catholic people saw this goodness and incorporated it into their lives.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Compiling remarks:

1. “Well you guys are jerks and say inappropriate things too, so that excuses our behavior”. No way! Yes, people of all denomination can totally cross the line and be jerks (I last called an LDS person on this very subject 19 hours ago). But are you, as people claiming to follow Christ, really going to play the “well everyone misbehaves” card as your excuse to keep up with this un-Christ-like behavior?

What un-Christlike behavior? Not having the same interpretation of a give phrase or paragraph, not being able to understand a given point. I still don’t understand why an “innocent” can not experience joy, but I suppose trying to delve into that with you would be considered un-Christlike so for me the conversation isn’t worth starting on the off chance I get further info.

1. “Well if you want to learn about Catholicism you shouldn’t be here but XYZ” Ummm… does that mean I can’t find Catholics here? That based on your venue who you are changes? For the record, I do lots of lurking in the Traditional Catholic and Eastern Catholic subforms, I just don’t speak because I am unqualified to provide additional info on the subject, and instead just listen.

No it doesn’t mean you can’t find Catholics here but it does mean that people are here to compare and contrast religions and discussions can get emotional when anyone’s deeply held beliefs are challenged. Coming here to learn is like playing Monopoly on a football field, why is that so hard to understand? BTW there is no reason you can’t participate on the other boards (you have) and the best way to learn is to ask questions.

1. “This is a discussion board” and “it’s to compare and contrast religious views”. Does ‘compare and contrast’ mean totally not state one perspective (Catholic, in this case), totally misunderstand the other (Mormonism, in this case), and have a bashing session? Does “discuss” mean not listen and ignore those whom think differently- or treat them as something to be mocked? It’s not just Mormons either- this forum is disrespectful of most non-Catholics (Protestants are a common example).

Please provide examples of what you describe, I see misunderstanding, and I still don’t understand the LDS view on this. It is very different from a Catholic view so it’s not hard to imagine it will take a lot of words before there is understanding.

 

[Horton]

Jane - You say you are here to learn what Catholics believe, then don’t believe what Catholics tell you they believe. You cry foul anytime others disagree with you. You threaten to leave CAF when we don’t believe your LDS theology. But yet, here you are?

There are many non-Catholics on this forum as well as others who get along well with everyone. Here is the real problem - To believe the Catholic Church is correct is to deny any truth in the LDS faith. To believe the LDS faith is true is to deny any truth in the Catholic Church. One can’t be a little of both.

If you want affirmation your LDS faith is true, this is not the place to be. Just like I would never go to a LDS discussion board to affirm my Catholic faith. As others have stated, if you truly want to know what we believe, check out some of the other forums on CAF.

 

[Horton]

I said the following back in post #25:

First, we have said over and over again that sin does not bring joy. I’m not sure why you continue to say that is our belief. In fact the Book of Mormon plainly states the following, “Behold I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness” (Alma 41:10). Do you believe me when I say that we believe sin does not bring joy? If not, then answering further questions is pointless for you are not seeking to understand but to attack.

“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:22–25).

After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, their eyes were opened, and Eve expressed gladness at the opportunity their transgression made possible: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11).

Partaking of the fruit brought mortality, with its many opportunities to choose between good and evil, and enabled Adam and Eve to have children. Thus the Fall opened the door for Heavenly Father’s children to come into the world, obtain physical bodies, and participate in “the great plan of happiness” (Alma 42:8). “Therefore this life became a probationary state,” a time to learn and grow, to repent and overcome weakness, “a time to prepare to meet God” (Alma 12:24

lds.org/ensign/2006/06/t…d-eve?lang=eng

Bolding mine.

All I see in the above comments, from LDS literature, is confirmation of the LDS concept that one must sin to know joy. Call sin whatever you may, misery, transgression, evil, the root of all is sin.

It would be one thing if non-LDS literature was being used, but this is straight from LDS sources. The LDS interpretation of Adam & Eve is contrary to most Christian interpretations including Catholic interpretation.

 

[Horton]

What do you think of what Mormon Apostle Russell Ballard says about Catholics?

tubechop.com/watch/7051576

WOW!

 

[lax16]

I am not here seeking ultimate Truth for myself, because I’m quite convinced I found it in LDS, and most pro-Catholic arguments I personally find very lacking.

Nobody here used a pro-Catholic argument regarding the topic of Adam and Eve and sin vs. transgression. We used official Mormon teaching from official Mormon sources.

You are disagreeing with your own teaching it seems to me.

I did come here to find the truth (lower t) of what Catholics think though, and that I was sincere about. I came in optimistically- my best friend growing up was Catholic, and I saw how when she practiced her faith it was of great good for her. I sincerely wanted to know more about how Catholic people saw this goodness and incorporated it into their lives.

What would you like to know about Catholicism? Ask away.

 

[lax16]

Even when I was LDS, the mixed message of two opposing commandments struck me as an odd way for a loving God (“Heavenly Father”) to treat his children.

Most parents I know try not to give out mixed messages to their kids. Not sure why God would do it.

Right. Is breaking one of God’s commandments, such as any of the Ten Commandmens, a sin in Mormonism?

Did God “command” Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit?

 

[lax16]

Compiling remarks:

1. “Well you guys are jerks and say inappropriate things too, so that excuses our behavior”. No way! Yes, people of all denomination can totally cross the line and be jerks (I last called an LDS person on this very subject 19 hours ago). But are you, as people claiming to follow Christ, really going to play the “well everyone misbehaves” card as your excuse to keep up with this un-Christ-like behavior?

Who ever said such a thing?

 

[Marie5890]

Compiling remarks:

1. “Well you guys are jerks and say inappropriate things too, so that excuses our behavior”. No way! Yes, people of all denomination can totally cross the line and be jerks (I last called an LDS person on this very subject 19 hours ago). But are you, as people claiming to follow Christ, really going to play the “well everyone misbehaves” card as your excuse to keep up with this un-Christ-like behavior?

Have to disagree with the characterization you have made here. Why? Because Eric is a great moderator and has no problem with given out infractions for lack of charity. I have been a few in the past several years myself.

Can you be more specific in your claim about un-Christ like behavior or where you just exaggerating with the "Well you guys are jerks and say inappropriate things too, " etc etc.

If anything, I think Eric is often time harder on the Catholics here for lack of charity that he is with others.

But if you have concrete examples, I hope you point them out and not just make a big broad stroke claim.

 

[kimg901]

Right. Is breaking one of God’s commandments, such as any of the Ten Commandmens, a sin in Mormonism?

Did God “command” Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit?

You or anyone else can correct me if im wrong but don’t Mormons believe there is not a hell but a lesser heaven? The reason I ask this is because if they (or any other church that’s teaches there is no hell) believe there is no hell then breaking commandments really wouldn’t matter to them. And that is a dangerous teaching.

 

[lax16]

You or anyone else can correct me if im wrong but don’t Mormons believe there is not a hell but a lesser heaven? The reason I ask this is because if they (or any other church that’s teaches there is no hell) believe there is no hell then breaking commandments really wouldn’t matter to them. And that is a dangerous teaching.

Homepage - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Discover a service-oriented, globally-connected Christian church that is led by a prophet of God and seeks to follow Jesus Christ and His restored gospel.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

HELL

Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).

Here is the definition of hell from Mormon.org.
I am not sure who falls into the category of “the sons of perdition”?

 

[Marie5890]

You or anyone else can correct me if im wrong but don’t Mormons believe there is not a hell but a lesser heaven? The reason I ask this is because if they (or any other church that’s teaches there is no hell) believe there is no hell then breaking commandments really wouldn’t matter to them. And that is a dangerous teaching.

They do believe in hell, but call it outter darkness. It’s where they say Satan and the other fallen angels are