LDS Belief on the Need to Sin In Order Understand Joy

[Marie5890]

LDS.ORG
HELL

Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).

Here is the definition of hell from Mormon.org.
I am not sure who falls into the category of “the sons of perdition”?

“Sons of perdition” would be those who, having received their “second annointing” deny the Holy Ghost, something like that. They go to “outter darkness”

Murders etc, would go to the lowest kingdom, called the Telestial kingdom.

 

[zaffiroborant]

WOW!

From the same man who then says a year later

“We demonstrate our best humanity when we show love and kindness to all of God’s children. We demonstrate our discipleship when we refuse strident tones, when we refuse derisive labels.”

Quite a difference in the public face displayed at the World Congress of Families and the private face when speaking to members of the LDS church. I try not to do this in my family, since it sends mixed messages to my kids.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Have to disagree with the characterization you have made here. Why? Because Eric is a great moderator and has no problem with given out infractions for lack of charity. I have been a few in the past several years myself.

Can you be more specific in your claim about un-Christ like behavior or where you just exaggerating with the "Well you guys are jerks and say inappropriate things too, " etc etc.

If anything, I think Eric is often time harder on the Catholics here for lack of charity that he is with others.

But if you have concrete examples, I hope you point them out and not just make a big broad stroke claim.

I also would like to see concrete examples of the accusation since like you I have a lot of respect for the moderation on this board, I asked before but maybe I wasn’t clear.

 

[RebeccaJ]

From the same man who then says a year later

Quite a difference in the public face displayed at the World Congress of Families and the private face when speaking to members of the LDS church. I try not to do this in my family, since it sends mixed messages to my kids.

People change. Elder Ballard also spoke at a farewell dinner for our Bishop, last May, who was made the archbishop of Santa Fe. Elder Ballard had very kind words and obviously a friendship with archbishop Wester. I like to think archbishop Wester had an influence for change. He is that kind of person.

 

[gazelam]

I would like to think we could have a religious discussion without one or another feeling disrespected. I am willing to continue to try.

What do you think of what Mormon Apostle Russell Ballard says about Catholics?

tubechop.com/watch/7051576

How much difference is there in Elder Ballard’s statement referring to Catholics (“They don’t know who God is, they don’t know who the Savior is, nor do they know who the Holy Ghost is”) and the 4th Lateran Council which states:

“We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature”.

Can an incomprehensible being be known?

 

[zaffiroborant]

People change. Elder Ballard also spoke at a farewell dinner for our Bishop, last May, who was made the archbishop of Santa Fe. Elder Ballard had very kind words and obviously a friendship with archbishop Wester. I like to think archbishop Wester had an influence for change. He is that kind of person.

Well Elder Ballards remarks were in Feb. of 2014, that’s not a lot of time to change his views. It’s close enough in time for me to see it just as likely being two faced as change of heart.

 

[zaffiroborant]

How much difference is there in Elder Ballard’s statement referring to Catholics (“They don’t know who God is, they don’t know who the Savior is, nor do they know who the Holy Ghost is”) and the 4th Lateran Council which states:

“We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature”.

Can an incomprehensible being be known?

Yes an incomprehensible being can be known, on some levels we are all incomprehensible to each other even though we know each other. The problem in my mind is that it was a gratuitous swipe at people with a Catholic background. There was no reason in his talk to specifically disparage Catholic belief and understanding other than to make a negative point about Catholics specifically. Elder Ballard wanted to insert a negative point about Catholics, why?

 

[RebeccaJ]

How much difference is there in Elder Ballard’s statement referring to Catholics (“They don’t know who God is, they don’t know who the Savior is, nor do they know who the Holy Ghost is”) and the 4th Lateran Council which states:

“We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature”.

Can an incomprehensible being be known?

Of course. It is the Church’s teaching that God is known through the door of fath, in creation itself, and ultimately in the Incarnate Word, Jesus Christ.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well Elder Ballards remarks were in Feb. of 2014, that’s not a lot of time to change his views. It’s close enough in time for me to see it just as likely being two faced as change of heart.

Who can say what is in his heart.

 

[Horton]

How much difference is there in Elder Ballard’s statement referring to Catholics (“They don’t know who God is, they don’t know who the Savior is, nor do they know who the Holy Ghost is”) and the 4th Lateran Council which states:

“We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature”.

Can an incomprehensible being be known?

Quite a lot of difference. One is a statement of what we believe and the other a rather appalling show of ignorance & intolerance.

 

[lax16]

How much difference is there in Elder Ballard’s statement referring to Catholics (“They don’t know who God is, they don’t know who the Savior is, nor do they know who the Holy Ghost is”) and the 4th Lateran Council which states:

“We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature”.

Can an incomprehensible being be known?

Was Ballard giving the people a quick lesson on Catholic theology?

Why would he feel the need to bring it up at all if it wasn’t meant as a criticism? Especially in Buenos Aires, Argentina?

 

[lax16]

People change. Elder Ballard also spoke at a farewell dinner for our Bishop, last May, who was made the archbishop of Santa Fe. Elder Ballard had very kind words and obviously a friendship with archbishop Wester. I like to think archbishop Wester had an influence for change. He is that kind of person.

I’m sure he does really like Bishop Wester. He is hard not to like!

I think his remarks in Argentina were an attempt to soften the popularity of the Pope among Mormons there.

 

[Marie5890]

I’m sure he does really like Bishop Wester. He is hard not to like!

I think his remarks in Argentina were an attempt to soften the popularity of the Pope among Mormons there.

That would be unfortunate if that were the reason.

The Pope is one of them. He is Argentinian. Why wouldn’t they like him. He served among them, got down into the ghettos and slums of their poor, etc.

 

[lax16]

That would be unfortunate if that were the reason.

The Pope is one of them. He is Argentinian. Why wouldn’t they like him. He served among them, got down into the ghettos and slums of their poor, etc.

A few weeks ago, I met a Mormon man that did his mission in Buenos Aires in the 70’s during the coup. He said that he absolutely loves Pope Francis and has had to defend him on many occasions.

He told me that people (Mormons?) tried to discredit Pope Francis because he was a priest during the 1976 military coup and didn’t do enough to protest against it. He said he has had to explain what it was like in Argentina at that time and if you didn’t live through it you wouldn’t understand.

He had a lot to say on the subject of Pope Francis and the need to defend him. He is very active in his church and told me that some Mormons were heavily criticizing the Pope.

It would not surprise me if Ballard was trying to soften the influence of Pope Francis among his own people. The Mormon church was built on stating what the Catholic Church does wrong.

Like the Mormon missionaries told me seven years ago in my living room “either the Catholics are right or the Mormons are right. It can’t be the Protestants.”

 

[Horton]

He had a lot to say on the subject of Pope Francis and the need to defend him. He is very active in his church and told me that some Mormons were heavily criticizing the Pope.

It would not surprise me if Ballard was trying to soften the influence of Pope Francis among his own people. The Mormon church was built on stating what the Catholic Church does wrong.

Like the Mormon missionaries told me seven years ago in my living room “either the Catholics are right or the Mormons are right. It can’t be the Protestants.”

It’s not a big surprise the LDS would try to discredit the Catholic faith. Because Pope Francis is so loved and respected by so many, Catholic and non-Catholic, it wouldn’t be prudent to come out against him so they must attack the Church itself.

The irony here is Ballard is saying to the LDS exactly the type of thing Jane_Doe alledges we say here on CAF.

 

[lax16]

The irony here is Ballard is saying to the LDS exactly the type of thing Jane_Doe alledges we say here on CAF.

That is why I posted it. To claim that the Catholics are so un-Christ-like and the Mormons never say anything against the Catholics is obviously false.

 

[Horton]

I’m sure we won’t hear from Jane again on this thread. We can only pray that if her intent is truly to learn about the Catholic Church, she will participate in the forums that more informative of Catholic teaching.

 

[lax16]

I’m sure we won’t hear from Jane again on this thread. We can only pray that if her intent is truly to learn about the Catholic Church, she will participate in the forums that more informative of Catholic teaching.

I sure miss the good ol’ days with Parker D and Company!

We used to have the best discussions that would go back and forth for hundreds of posts.

It would get heated but everybody hung in there.

 

[Marie5890]

A few weeks ago, I met a Mormon man that did his mission in Buenos Aires in the 70’s during the coup. He said that he absolutely loves Pope Francis and has had to defend him on many occasions.

He told me that people (Mormons?) tried to discredit Pope Francis because he was a priest during the 1976 military coup and didn’t do enough to protest against it. He said he has had to explain what it was like in Argentina at that time and if you didn’t live through it you wouldn’t understand.

He had a lot to say on the subject of Pope Francis and the need to defend him. He is very active in his church and told me that some Mormons were heavily criticizing the Pope.

It would not surprise me if Ballard was trying to soften the influence of Pope Francis among his own people. The Mormon church was built on stating what the Catholic Church does wrong.

Like the Mormon missionaries told me seven years ago in my living room “either the Catholics are right or the Mormons are right. It can’t be the Protestants.”/QUOTE

It’s nice to hear that this Mormon man is sticking up for Pope Francis and helping to put Francis in the context of his being Argentinian ( I would add Jesuit, but even many Catholics dont understand that, so that can be getting into the so-called weeds)

Yes, the LDS church has to discredit the Catholic (and I would add, the Orthodox) in order for them to further their stance that the Gospel needed to be “restored”.
Ballard is from the old guard of the LDS leadership. Uses the last century’s rhetoric, etc etc.
to make his point…

Im one of those former Mormons that believes that the main aim for the Mormons church now is not making converts, but rather, stopping the exodus that is happing from within.

They hare having a hard time with retaining what they have.

 

[Marie5890]

I’m sure we won’t hear from Jane again on this thread. We can only pray that if her intent is truly to learn about the Catholic Church, she will participate in the forums that more informative of Catholic teaching.

That would be ufortunate, but not surprising.

For many Mormons, since the use of reason is not encouraged, they will default to their testimonies and thus making their points are limited.

In Mormo theology, Eve sinned in order for the “Plan of Salvation” to unfold.

She and Adam were given two commandments, and were forced to decide which one they would be disobedient in.

What parent does that to their kids?
Whatta mixed message.
In order for salvation to become a realtiy, sin had to occur. That is the gist of their plan.