LDS Belief on the Need to Sin In Order Understand Joy

[fhansen]

That they had the law written in their hearts?

As long as one group believes that they knew good from evil before they ate the fruit and the other believes they didn’t, we’ll never come to an agreement on it. If they didn’t know before then it was absolutely necessary they eat the fruit. If they did, of course it doesn’t make sense to try and justify them eating it.

If they didn’t have a conscience already, it wouldn’t make sense for God to give them a command. In fact , that command, that law, was their conscience speaking-and they ignored it, which they were free to do. We do the same thing everday. We’re here to learn of the foolhardiness of such choices.

If it was necessary for them to eat of the fruit while God gave them His express will not to eat of it, then He’s a liar and directly responsible for all of the most heinous evils ever committed.

This is why the Church of God has always maintained that the original sin was not necessary and was, in fact, sin, opposition to God’s will.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That they had the law written in their hearts?

As long as one group believes that they knew good from evil before they ate the fruit and the other believes they didn’t, we’ll never come to an agreement on it. If they didn’t know before then it was absolutely necessary they eat the fruit. If they did, of course it doesn’t make sense to try and justify them eating it.

There’s only one group of people who believe God created us without a conscience. An innovative corruption of scripture, but a lie to teach people that sin is the cause of conscience.

 

[Brian_Kerzetski]

But the difference is Adam and Eve wouldn’t die if they didn’t eat anything. They were immortal. So they would either stay in the garden and everything would stay the same. Or they could leave and progress or regress depending on their choices.

From a psychological perspective I accept it because he’s not suggesting you do the opposite of what he says. He laid out two paths for Adam and Eve. They chose the one that led to eternal life (life not just in the presence of God, but life with the same understanding he has). As opposed to the one that led to them being in the garden of Eden forever. Never changing, never progressing.

Sorry, I thought it was important to go back to your previous post. If they could not progress or regress how could they choose to do (and by extension experience) anything they were not told/programmed to do? How could they have free will?

 

[Job314]

Sorry, I thought it was important to go back to your previous post. If they could not progress or regress how could they choose to do (and by extension experience) anything they were not told/programmed to do? How could they have free will?

Exactly my point. If the choice wasn’t there, there would be no free will.

 

[Job314]

There’s only one group of people who believe God created us without a conscience. An innovative corruption of scripture, but a lie to teach people that sin is the cause of conscience.

I’m not saying God created us without a conscience.

How can one know right from wrong without knowing good from evil? Good is right, evil is wrong. So you’re saying that even though they already knew good from evil, Eve was still silly enough to be fooled by Satan when he said “you shall not surely die… your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Wouldn’t she have said “you know, we already know good from evil, so no thanks”?

 

[Job314]

If they didn’t have a conscience already, it wouldn’t make sense for God to give them a command. In fact , that command, that law, was their conscience speaking-and they ignored it, which they were free to do. We do the same thing everday. We’re here to learn of the foolhardiness of such choices.

If it was necessary for them to eat of the fruit while God gave them His express will not to eat of it, then He’s a liar and directly responsible for all of the most heinous evils ever committed.

This is why the Church of God has always maintained that the original sin was not necessary and was, in fact, sin, opposition to God’s will.

That’s why I understand the “command” differently. It was less of a “thou shalt not” it was more of a “don’t do this if you want this result”.

Right, and that’s why the doctrine of original sin itself wasn’t introduced until the second century AD at the earliest…
(And yes, I’ve already read the catholic apologists response to this claim)

 

[Brian_Kerzetski]

I’m not saying God created us without a conscience.

How can one know right from wrong without knowing good from evil? Good is right, evil is wrong. So you’re saying that even though they already knew good from evil, Eve was still silly enough to be fooled by Satan when he said “you shall not surely die… your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Wouldn’t she have said “you know, we already know good from evil, so no thanks”?

Knowing right from wrong doesn’t necessarily mean there is an understanding of good and evil. Adam knew it was right to till the garden, but also knew it was wrong to allow the plants and animals to die needlessly. While he may not be aware that evil existed, he would come to understand it as it happened. What the tree of knowledge did was give them the answers prematurely. It would be similar to giving a child who doesn’t understand math all the answers without allowing them to understand why the answers are. Eventually, the child will fail and have to start over. That is what Satan did. He gave Adam and Eve the answers, which caused them ultimate failure. Again, to say that this is what God wanted for us is unfathomable.

That gives me another question: did God require Satan’s help to carry out his plan?

 

[Job314]

Knowing right from wrong doesn’t necessarily mean there is an understanding of good and evil. Adam knew it was right to till the garden, but also knew it was wrong to allow the plants and animals to die needlessly. While he may not be aware that evil existed, he would come to understand it as it happened. What the tree of knowledge did was give them the answers prematurely. It would be similar to giving a child who doesn’t understand math all the answers without allowing them to understand why the answers are. Eventually, the child will fail and have to start over. That is what Satan did. He gave Adam and Eve the answers, which caused them ultimate failure. Again, to say that this is what God wanted for us is unfathomable.

That gives me another question: did God require Satan’s help to carry out his plan?

Hmm I understand what you’re saying, I don’t think I agree with it though. Something is only truly “wrong” because it’s evil or will lead to evil. The “right” things we do are good.
So it seems what you’re saying is right choice, wrong time.

Yes. The same way he required him to lead people to crucify Christ. God certainly didn’t cause it to happen, but he knew what would happen and allowed it to.

 

[Brian_Kerzetski]

Hmm I understand what you’re saying, I don’t think I agree with it though. Something is only truly “wrong” because it’s evil or will lead to evil. The “right” things we do are good.
So it seems what you’re saying is right choice, wrong time.

In general, yes, but I’m sure there would be some caveats.

Yes. The same way he required him to lead people to crucify Christ. God certainly didn’t cause it to happen, but he knew what would happen and allowed it to.

You will probably have to clarify what you mean by “require.” Allow does not equate to require in my dictionary. I think we have been close to this point before but passed over it. It seems you are implying evil is required by God for His plan to come to fruition.

 

[Job314]

In general, yes, but I’m sure there would be some caveats.

You will probably have to clarify what you mean by “require.” Allow does not equate to require in my dictionary. I think we have been close to this point before but passed over it. It seems you are implying evil is required by God for His plan to come to fruition.

I think we have too
Well if free will requires a choice between right and wrong, and God cannot tempt us to do wrong, then it’s logical that he does require there to be evil. Of course, he has perfect foreknowledge of everything, so he knew that evil would exist in the world and that would then play a role in his plan.

 

[fhansen]

I’m not saying God created us without a conscience.

How can one know right from wrong without knowing good from evil? Good is right, evil is wrong. So you’re saying that even though they already knew good from evil, Eve was still silly enough to be fooled by Satan when he said “you shall not surely die… your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Wouldn’t she have said “you know, we already know good from evil, so no thanks”?

Not necessarily- ironically, perhaps, because she was *not *God. She lacked the wisdom to obey God’s voice and listened to an external voice instead. The meaning of the Hebrew word “know” in this instance is often used to convey the knowledge of something by direct experience-to know Bejing by living in and traveling through it rather than just reading about it, to know someone intimately in the marital embrace.

So they were given the law- and had no more reason to disobey it than a would-be murderer has in order to find out whether or not the civil law against murder has any teeth. A&E simply, presumably, know by now that God and their own consciences were right after all. Either way they knew enough beforehand, having walked with God, and being His own handiwork; their very natures created by Him, to know better. But they ate anyway.

 

[Job314]

Not necessarily- ironically, perhaps, because she was *not *God. She lacked the wisdom to obey God’s voice and listened to an external voice instead. The meaning of the Hebrew word “know” in this instance is often used to convey the knowledge of something by direct experience-to know Bejing by living in and traveling through it rather than just reading about it, to know someone intimately in the marital embrace.

So they were given the law- and had no more reason to disobey it than a would-be murderer has in order to find out whether or not the civil law against murder has any teeth. A&E simply, presumably, know by now that God and their own consciences were right after all. Either way they knew enough beforehand, having walked with God, and being His own handiwork; their very natures created by Him, to know better. But they ate anyway.

Hmm, but doesn’t that then suggest that because God said after they ate the fruit they they had “become as one of us” that God had directly experienced evil? And that goes against my understanding of your beliefs about the nature of God.

 

[fhansen]

Hmm, but doesn’t that then suggest that because God said after they ate the fruit they they had “become as one of us” that God had directly experienced evil? And that goes against my understanding of your beliefs about the nature of God.

God is omniscient. He cannot help but know evil.

There are two theories on the meaning of the “knowledge of good and evil”, not necessarily in conflict with each other, that I’ve heard from reliable Catholic sources. Aquinas mentioned both at one time or another. One is the definition as I described above. The other is that the term means that the one holding such knowledge is the *determiner *of good and evil, the maker of the law or morality, IOW. This is God’s province. alone, and yet humankind may do as they see fit, often without regard to any kind of objective law whether proceeding from their consciences or from the law as publicly revealed via the Ten Commandments, for instance.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m not saying God created us without a conscience.

How can one know right from wrong without knowing good from evil? Good is right, evil is wrong. So you’re saying that even though they already knew good from evil, Eve was still silly enough to be fooled by Satan when he said “you shall not surely die… your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Wouldn’t she have said “you know, we already know good from evil, so no thanks”?

What do you think Genesis means by good and evil? We understand it to mean “wisdom”.

The temptation that Eve fell for, is to remove her trust from God and place it in herself. “Pride of life”, as I already posted.

 

[Job314]

What do you think Genesis means by good and evil? We understand it to mean “wisdom”.

The temptation that Eve fell for, is to remove her trust from God and place it in herself. “Pride of life”, as I already posted.

I understand it to mean a knowledge of good and evil ie. They could comprehend that good existed and evil was its opposite. Obedience to God was good, obedience to Satan was evil. Without eating the fruit they would not have had this knowledge and could not have made a conscious choice to follow God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I understand it to mean a knowledge of good and evil ie. They could comprehend that good existed and evil was its opposite. Obedience to God was good, obedience to Satan was evil. Without eating the fruit they would not have had this knowledge and could not have made a conscious choice to follow God.

Would you agree that good and evil is a reference to morality?

 

[Job314]

Would you agree that good and evil is a reference to morality?

Depending on what definition of morality you’re using, then yes, it could be.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Depending on what definition of morality you’re using, then yes, it could be.

It isn’t a trick question. But to clarify definitions. Would you agree that objectively speaking, a moral act is good and an immoral act is evil?

 

[Job314]

It isn’t a trick question. But to clarify definitions. Would you agree that objectively speaking, a moral act is good and an immoral act is evil?

In that case, then yes. Of course there are many exceptions to that classification as well.

 

[Horton]

In that case, then yes. Of course there are many exceptions to that classification as well.

How there be exceptions? How there variable definitions of what is a moral act verses what is an immoral act?