M
Mencius
Guest
The LDS already do these.
But in the pre-Nicene era, those other requirements are meaningless.
Clement of Alexandria believed in creation ex materia.
- Status
But in the pre-Nicene era, those other requirements are meaningless.
Clement of Alexandria believed in creation ex materia.
po18guy
Well-known member
Not so fast! Let’s apply a little honesty via full disclosure here. The LDS ‘Jesus’ may be divine now, but was not before. He was once a sperm and egg. It took sexual intercourse to beget him. The Holy Spirit was witness, or “protector” or something, but had no sexual organs to complete the human act.
The LDS is not a Christian faith. At most, it is pseudo-Christian. The Christian Church has spoken on this, and any further such assertion sounds to me like a holy lie. And, a lie, no matter for what purpose, is a sin for a Christian.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
No you don’t. A person prays to the God they worship, that is a pretty basic and universal form of worship, no matter who or what your god is.
No they aren’t, but this sentence is.
I’m sure that’s what a Mormon would read, as Mormons take everything out of context, and twist it all to something it was never meant to be. All this does is create deeper and deeper levels of lies.
O
onenow1
Guest
What was it that Saul persecuted in Acts 8:1-3?
It was the CHURCH as mentioned twice in those three verses.
Then why did Jesus Christ say, “Why doest thou persecute me?”, instead of ‘Why dost thou persecute My Church’?
It is because His Church is his body and He is the head (Eph 5:23).
Whatever happens to the body is registered in the head. Isn’t that true?
Therefore, whenever someone persecutes the Church which Jesus Christ founded, they are persecuting its founder as well.
“For I am the least of the Apostles, and am not worthy to be called an Apostle because I persecuted the CHURCH OF GOD.”
1Cor 15:9
Matthew 28 :20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of>>>>>>>>>>> DEATH SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT.
Isaiah 9: 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
Love how Isaiah personifies the Catholic Church. The above so personifies jesus commands there can be no doubt.
Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz1MkoOyjsj
Question on what pillar is the Mormon religion grounded ?
Peace, Onenow1
It was the CHURCH as mentioned twice in those three verses.
Then why did Jesus Christ say, “Why doest thou persecute me?”, instead of ‘Why dost thou persecute My Church’?
It is because His Church is his body and He is the head (Eph 5:23).
Whatever happens to the body is registered in the head. Isn’t that true?
Therefore, whenever someone persecutes the Church which Jesus Christ founded, they are persecuting its founder as well.
“For I am the least of the Apostles, and am not worthy to be called an Apostle because I persecuted the CHURCH OF GOD.”
1Cor 15:9
Matthew 28 :20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of>>>>>>>>>>> DEATH SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT.
Isaiah 9: 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
Love how Isaiah personifies the Catholic Church. The above so personifies jesus commands there can be no doubt.
Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz1MkoOyjsj
Question on what pillar is the Mormon religion grounded ?
Peace, Onenow1
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
You find modest success because the Orthodox are Orthodox, and have no interest in the teachings of cults coming out of the west. Mormonism is a western religious based on western thought, with strong protestant roots. Orthodox have no interest in either of those things, protestantism, and the offshoots of it, being something they view as a problem of the western Church. In short, they’re smart enough to know the difference between true religion, and silliness coming out of the west.
Unfortunately, western Catholics seem to be getting more gullible to all the wiles of the evil one with each passing day. Making easy pickings for Mormon wolves and others.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Mencius…with your reference to Clement…people look at Rome as standing independently, as a power base run by mortals.
The Church and its development comprised of a gathering of people, and it is the work of the Church based on Christ and His apostles, that liturgy, the books of Scripture, and the Creed were gradually developed and formed over time. This is in contrast to Mormonism that claims a new faith that refers to Jesus Christ but under the dominance of Joseph Smith.
(Every bishop is a vicar of Christ; the seat of Peter as Vicar of Christ is in communion with all bishops throughout the world.)
If the Holy Father defines anything…it is usually already believed and practiced by the faithful. So whatever Clement’s theological musings were, they are in the category of opinion.
The pope, and earliest heads of the Church, made decrees in conjunction with the faith of believers.
Christianity was dealing with both those heretics who did not believe in the Divine presence of Christ at the altar table or with beliefs and concepts held by Gnostics.
The first several hundred years of Christianity was formation in the midst of rapid expansion and at various times and places, great persecutions. The Apostles originally continued to gather in Jerusalem…preaching to the Lost Sheep of Israel; this expanded out to Jews living among the Mediterranean Coast…in Antioch, the Apostles then first preached to the Gentiles, and baptized them. In time, when more Gentiles entered…and subsequently did not need to be circumcised, we had the Council of Jerusalem…
The traditionalists of Jewish custom held their own, but doing so, the Gentiles took forefront of being the major thrust of the Church.
There was also the issue of whether or not Christ was going to come back soon. St. Paul at first thought Christ would return any day, and accordingly, people at that juncture did not relate to organization and foundation as realized, until it was finally understood that Christianity was at its beginning.
St. Paul was about to set sail for Spain after doing all that he could for the eastern Mediterranean. However, he went back to Jerusalem, met James, and a fracas followed…he was sent to Rome, and later was executed by Nero, but always worked so heartedly for the union of all Christians…St. Peter also died under Emperor Nero.\
There came about great conversions among the pagans…reflecting general political, social and cultural trends…
Rome dominated the Mediterranean world…the Church in Rome was seen as wealthy and subsidized and helped the budding churches. Greek was facilitated by the Roman empire, and most preaching was thus done in the large cities…Rome was the main hub of the empire, it drew many intellectuals, and as mentioned before, a support to the new churches.
St. Justin the Martyr was asked by the Roman emperor of his time to describe what happens at the Mass in Rome and in the surrounding countryside, around the year 155 AD…the approach and tone, the way of relating, the parts of liturgy were in practice throughout the ancient Christian world at that time, and it reflects very much of what we Catholics experience at Mass today.
Christianity filled the void of the negative events of the Roman empire…considering the intrigues of the Roman emperors—the successors of Augustus were very difficult and murderous…
By the end of the 2nd century, the Christian church’s system of authority was designed, taken from the Jewish model of the bishop as head and his presbyters vs a Gentile model of more council like. By 150 or 160 this bishop as head was established. These early Christians knew the Church was the Spouse of Christ. There were two important rituals – the Eucharist and baptism.
Our faith was guaranteed in that the bishops were direct successors of the apostles.
Sacred Scripture’s integrity and tradition of understanding as it was passed down since ancient times to Christ and His apostles were to ensure the true understanding about Christ. The Gospel of St. John took more time to ensure John was indeed the author. The Epistle of Hebrews took 200 years to authenticate. Thus the interplay of the ‘living Church’ and written Scripture was practiced from the start. The entire Scripture realized as canon did not happen until a decade between 380 to 390, and it took longer time in the East.
Rome was always seen as having the last say on matters although different churches had their own jurisdiction.
The final work to ensure the integrity of faith was the creed…asserting ‘the Church’s faith in one God, the Father and Creator of all things, in the incarnation of God in Christ Jesus; and in the Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets were inspired to foretell the salvation events connected with the ministry of Jesus Christ’…
‘In this threefold manner-- through bishops claiming to be successors of the Apostles, through a Canon of Scripture, and through authoritative creed–the Church erected a durable structure of authority, a framework of steel that has enabled it to meet every conceivable crisis.’…Thomas Bokenkotter, 'A Concise History of the Catholic Church…
It was St. Iraneas, not Clement, who worked to ensure the integrity of faith passed down from the Apostles, witnesses to Jesus Christ.
Finally, it was the years before Constantine…who did not become a Christian until days within his death, that the worst persecutions, the killings of bishops and destruction came about.
Following Constantine, there were more hundreds of years of affliction by barbarians…and as was stated earlier…what was established in the early years of C Christianity can survive every crisis…because our Church is founded on Jesus Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit.
The Church and its development comprised of a gathering of people, and it is the work of the Church based on Christ and His apostles, that liturgy, the books of Scripture, and the Creed were gradually developed and formed over time. This is in contrast to Mormonism that claims a new faith that refers to Jesus Christ but under the dominance of Joseph Smith.
(Every bishop is a vicar of Christ; the seat of Peter as Vicar of Christ is in communion with all bishops throughout the world.)
If the Holy Father defines anything…it is usually already believed and practiced by the faithful. So whatever Clement’s theological musings were, they are in the category of opinion.
The pope, and earliest heads of the Church, made decrees in conjunction with the faith of believers.
Christianity was dealing with both those heretics who did not believe in the Divine presence of Christ at the altar table or with beliefs and concepts held by Gnostics.
The first several hundred years of Christianity was formation in the midst of rapid expansion and at various times and places, great persecutions. The Apostles originally continued to gather in Jerusalem…preaching to the Lost Sheep of Israel; this expanded out to Jews living among the Mediterranean Coast…in Antioch, the Apostles then first preached to the Gentiles, and baptized them. In time, when more Gentiles entered…and subsequently did not need to be circumcised, we had the Council of Jerusalem…
The traditionalists of Jewish custom held their own, but doing so, the Gentiles took forefront of being the major thrust of the Church.
There was also the issue of whether or not Christ was going to come back soon. St. Paul at first thought Christ would return any day, and accordingly, people at that juncture did not relate to organization and foundation as realized, until it was finally understood that Christianity was at its beginning.
St. Paul was about to set sail for Spain after doing all that he could for the eastern Mediterranean. However, he went back to Jerusalem, met James, and a fracas followed…he was sent to Rome, and later was executed by Nero, but always worked so heartedly for the union of all Christians…St. Peter also died under Emperor Nero.\
There came about great conversions among the pagans…reflecting general political, social and cultural trends…
Rome dominated the Mediterranean world…the Church in Rome was seen as wealthy and subsidized and helped the budding churches. Greek was facilitated by the Roman empire, and most preaching was thus done in the large cities…Rome was the main hub of the empire, it drew many intellectuals, and as mentioned before, a support to the new churches.
St. Justin the Martyr was asked by the Roman emperor of his time to describe what happens at the Mass in Rome and in the surrounding countryside, around the year 155 AD…the approach and tone, the way of relating, the parts of liturgy were in practice throughout the ancient Christian world at that time, and it reflects very much of what we Catholics experience at Mass today.
Christianity filled the void of the negative events of the Roman empire…considering the intrigues of the Roman emperors—the successors of Augustus were very difficult and murderous…
By the end of the 2nd century, the Christian church’s system of authority was designed, taken from the Jewish model of the bishop as head and his presbyters vs a Gentile model of more council like. By 150 or 160 this bishop as head was established. These early Christians knew the Church was the Spouse of Christ. There were two important rituals – the Eucharist and baptism.
Our faith was guaranteed in that the bishops were direct successors of the apostles.
Sacred Scripture’s integrity and tradition of understanding as it was passed down since ancient times to Christ and His apostles were to ensure the true understanding about Christ. The Gospel of St. John took more time to ensure John was indeed the author. The Epistle of Hebrews took 200 years to authenticate. Thus the interplay of the ‘living Church’ and written Scripture was practiced from the start. The entire Scripture realized as canon did not happen until a decade between 380 to 390, and it took longer time in the East.
Rome was always seen as having the last say on matters although different churches had their own jurisdiction.
The final work to ensure the integrity of faith was the creed…asserting ‘the Church’s faith in one God, the Father and Creator of all things, in the incarnation of God in Christ Jesus; and in the Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets were inspired to foretell the salvation events connected with the ministry of Jesus Christ’…
‘In this threefold manner-- through bishops claiming to be successors of the Apostles, through a Canon of Scripture, and through authoritative creed–the Church erected a durable structure of authority, a framework of steel that has enabled it to meet every conceivable crisis.’…Thomas Bokenkotter, 'A Concise History of the Catholic Church…
It was St. Iraneas, not Clement, who worked to ensure the integrity of faith passed down from the Apostles, witnesses to Jesus Christ.
Finally, it was the years before Constantine…who did not become a Christian until days within his death, that the worst persecutions, the killings of bishops and destruction came about.
Following Constantine, there were more hundreds of years of affliction by barbarians…and as was stated earlier…what was established in the early years of C Christianity can survive every crisis…because our Church is founded on Jesus Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit.
T
TheExorcist
Guest
A little O/T - Do Oriental Orthodox also believe in real presence?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The Oriental Orthodox only accept the first 3 synods while the Latin Church recognizes all 21…the Orientals: Nicea, Constantinople, and Ephesus, and also believe in the Eucharist.
What is interesting is studying the history of rites…way of liturgy reflecting local culture…a number of churches split from the Roman church, became Orthodox reflecting exclusively their own culture of faith, and then later on returning to union with the Papacy…one hold out is the Ethiopian Orthodox…this community in general holds on to Jewish customs, but sees itself separate, even racially, from the returning Roman Catholic Ethiopians.
What is interesting is studying the history of rites…way of liturgy reflecting local culture…a number of churches split from the Roman church, became Orthodox reflecting exclusively their own culture of faith, and then later on returning to union with the Papacy…one hold out is the Ethiopian Orthodox…this community in general holds on to Jewish customs, but sees itself separate, even racially, from the returning Roman Catholic Ethiopians.
T
TheExorcist
Guest
Alright, when the time comes for God to grant the grace for me to come home, I want YOU as my RCIA instructor!! We are both in the Pacific NW!
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Rebecca,
Your recent post reflected a reality Roman Catholics are aware of here in the Americas…America itself has split off from Europe, and also its Christian roots and sense of history.
You don’t find the kind of American fundamentalism in Europe as here. With such a deep fracture, many Christians of the fundamentalist persuasion, in rejecting and loosing the understanding of their Christian roots, likewise have a very difficult time understanding Catholic ecclesiology (church), sacraments, the communion of saints and devotion to Mary…once you sever from all of Catholic tradition of faith, and also that of Orthodox, the fracture is so deep, that it is truly the grace of the Lord and the prayers of many to guide fundamentalists into the Church.
The life of the Church is extremely complex because it is universal. The Catholic Church provides us through Christ the forgiveness of sins and the preaching of the Good News to the poor…subsequently, ours is not a Church-centric institution but existing in the manner of proclamation. We are not to be an insular, closed in on ourselves, but outward focused.
Your recent post reflected a reality Roman Catholics are aware of here in the Americas…America itself has split off from Europe, and also its Christian roots and sense of history.
You don’t find the kind of American fundamentalism in Europe as here. With such a deep fracture, many Christians of the fundamentalist persuasion, in rejecting and loosing the understanding of their Christian roots, likewise have a very difficult time understanding Catholic ecclesiology (church), sacraments, the communion of saints and devotion to Mary…once you sever from all of Catholic tradition of faith, and also that of Orthodox, the fracture is so deep, that it is truly the grace of the Lord and the prayers of many to guide fundamentalists into the Church.
The life of the Church is extremely complex because it is universal. The Catholic Church provides us through Christ the forgiveness of sins and the preaching of the Good News to the poor…subsequently, ours is not a Church-centric institution but existing in the manner of proclamation. We are not to be an insular, closed in on ourselves, but outward focused.
P
ParkerD
Guest
Hi, Onenow1,
On the foundation pillar of the living Shepherd, the Stone of Israel and Rock of our salvation, Jesus the Christ, the Anointed One, the Son of the Living God.
One needs revelatory knowledge that Jesus lives today, and is guiding individually, purposefully, because then one can make the changes in their life that He wants them to make, to draw closer to being like Him, and to forgive others along the way as He taught to do.
Peace to you also.
S
SteveVH
Guest
What you said was "the LDS Church resembles Eastern Orthodoxy more than any other Church". Nevertheless, Mormonism is not similar to any Christian faith tradition. You may use some of the same words, but they mean completley different things. About the only thing similar is that you agree that there is a power higher than oursleves, but even then, you believe that we can become this higher power. This is like saying that we are similar to Islam because we both believe in one God. That is where the similarity ends, however. I’m not sure why Mormons have such a fixation with being identified with the very faith which they claim is an abomination. Maybe you can enlighten me.
po18guy
Well-known member
Actually, (probably most) Lutherans, Anglicans and Episcopalians also believe the real presence - it is only their lack of valid holy orders that negates this.
S
SteveVH
Guest
Or the one legged stool known as the Great Apostasy. Is that not the basis of the need for a restoration?
And what Christian does not believe this? This was revealed to us through Jesus Christ when He walked the earth and rose from the dead. Jesus is alive and wants us to follow Him. Are you saying that this is unique to LDS beliefs?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Exorcist,
PM me if you wish and I can provide you some basics…I think of some Muslims here…they have been reading the posts, working on understanding, and this particular soul is now seeing the significance of the Catholic faith.
There are other new threads coming out on Orthodoxy…but to say the Orthodox are similar to Mormons…again, two entirely different religions. The Latin Church tends to define anything and everything, whereas Orthodox are very comfortable living in the mysteries of God; their liturgies are so beautiful, ours…well…
Finishing this post, I am now coming to a place to begin…for you…as well as prayer…
PM me if you wish and I can provide you some basics…I think of some Muslims here…they have been reading the posts, working on understanding, and this particular soul is now seeing the significance of the Catholic faith.
There are other new threads coming out on Orthodoxy…but to say the Orthodox are similar to Mormons…again, two entirely different religions. The Latin Church tends to define anything and everything, whereas Orthodox are very comfortable living in the mysteries of God; their liturgies are so beautiful, ours…well…
Finishing this post, I am now coming to a place to begin…for you…as well as prayer…
L
LatterDayLady
Guest
Very rude and not true.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
It is my experience with Catholics from the former Soviet countries, both Orthodox and Roman Catholic and Catholic of the Eastern churches. They don’t fall for the new religions that arose in the Americas in the 19th century, and find them ridiculous and fascinating. A Russian friend of mine read the Book of Mormon, said it was a nice story. Another from the same area of eastern Europe, read it and had no doubt it was made up.
For whatever reason, Roman Catholics are gullible, as I know of more than a few who have converted to Mormonism, but I know of not one Orthodox or Eastern Catholic who has.
As for American fundamentalists, there are things to admire about them, particularly the zeal for evangelization, knowledge of scripture, and discipleship.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
When men who were once LDS missionaries tell me they looked through obituaries while on their missions in order to find people to contact, I’d say, I’ve nailed it accurately.
When I’ve met countless Mormon converts whose conversion occurred during emotional struggles, then yes, I’d say I’ve nailed it accurately.
When Mormon missionaries are targeting Christians in Christianized countries, claiming to have a new gospel, and leading them from the true faith, I’d say I’ve nailed it accurately.
When I read Mormons celebrating the growing secularism in Europe, I see a predator. Which is the same thing the Russian Orthodox see, as evidenced by Orthodox priests who have asked Mormon missionaries to leave Mass.
po18guy
Well-known member
I can kinda see where being hit with truth between the eyes could be perceived as “rude” Maybe she can explain to us why the dirty little secret of LDS “holy lies” is not also rude…
P
ParkerD
Guest
SteveVH,
No–definitely not. An example of the Great Apostasy is the taking of a plain prophecy such as Isaiah 22:21-23, which is clearly a prophecy about Jesus Christ, the Son of David, who “shall open and none shall shut,” and who “shall shut, and none shall open”, and not understanding that prophecy because revelatory knowledge has been lost (and because of not gaining the insights available through study of the Bible, where in Revelation 3:7 is given the insight very clearly about the meaning of Isaiah 22:21-23.)
The most significant basis of the need for a restoration is the need to understand that God did not finish revealing knowledge to the earth when the apostles died or were taken. So when someone writes that “there can be no prophets after Christ”, then that shows that there has been a loss of understanding of the Bible and its prophecies, and of the spirit of prophecy. When someone writes that “we aren’t supposed to become like Christ or even desire it”, then it is clear that there has been a loss of understanding because the Bible is completely explicit about the fact that Jesus and the apostles taught that we are to seek to “become like Christ”, but that takes faith rather than doubt–so the restoration was also about dispelling that doubt from the minds of people.
I would say that the unique part, although not across the board as JeanMichel showed, is the knowledge that we really are to follow Him and to seek to be led by Him until He finishes that which He was sent to earth to do–to bring us to God which also means for us to have repented all through our lives–daily; learned how to change in heartfelt changes that make us a new person, until becoming wholly sanctified and becoming able to be “like Him” through His grace and our individual repentance.
We are asked by Him and by the apostles to follow Him toward becoming like Him, and we will be able to get there because He helps us get there–not just Latter-day Saints, but anyone who places their individual trust completely in Him and lets Him do the leading and the guiding, yielding their heart and following in the ways He taught to do.
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