LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

[JeanMichel]

His dishonest defense of Mormonism and misrepresentation of Papal teaching is why I’ve thought he is Mormon also. If something is true, one should not have to lie to defend it, yet he does. If something is false, why defend it; yet he does.

Again, I reject the dishonest manner of some to distort the teachings of others. It is wrong and it is not of the Holy Spirit! They are corrected and yet they persist. Pride and arrogance are very difficult to cast aside. It appears a mendacious spirit is even harder!

 

[TheExorcist]

His dishonest defense of Mormonism and misrepresentation of Papal teaching is why I’ve thought he is Mormon also. If something is true, one should not have to lie to defend it, yet he does. If something is false, why defend it; yet he does.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. To say you have “studied” Mormonism isnt the same in any way, shape or form as having BEEN Mormon. The Catholic church has ugliness in it’s history, not the least of which is the abuse scandal. But it’s the LDS church’s dishonesty about it’s own history and practices that galls a lot of us. They misrepresent themselves and only if you know a lot of the history, of the people and the doctrines etc can you make sense of it. These doctrines and the way the leadership has applied it has destroyed and continues to destroy lives and those outside the church need to understand that.

 

[stevekehl]

Actually these musings of Brigham Young have been denied by the Mormon Church. One that I recall my cousins talking about is the Adam-God theory. As I recall when he first talked about it other leaderes condemned it as false. Then as time passed just to make it clear to everyone latter leaders condemned it as false.

Mormon leaders appear to allowed the leeway to speculate about obscure things. These speculations have never been accepted as doctrine by the Mormon Church, but they create a field day for critics. In reality these individuals were very much men with many failings, but viewed as called of God by their members.

It reminds me of my feelings about Peter, my favorite apostle. Here we have a man that sat at the feet of God and was taught the Gospel. He was with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. He knew who Jesus was because God the Father told him. Yet, this is the man that denied Jesus not once, but three times. This weak vessel that turned his back on Jesus was the same person upon which the Church was built.

For me, men are weak vessels and are sinners regardless of their position. The Bible says, “and the weak things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the strong.” (1 Cor 1:27). The weak leaders of the Mormon Church are not why I reject their teachings.

The bodily impregnation of Mary is hardly a musing by Brigham Young. He wrote of it often.
“When the Virgin concieved the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” Journal of Discourses, vol. 1 p. 50
Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, who is our Father in Heaven (Adam is our God and Jesus father)." Journal of Discourses, 1:51
“When the time came that His first born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle (body), the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it.” Journal of Discourses, 4:218
And my original quote:
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood was begotten by his Father, as we are of our fathers.” Journal of Discourses, 8:115
This was LDS in 1974 when the Apostle James Talmadge wrote in *Articles of the Faith *about Jesus’ “unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, resurrected and glorified Father.” p.473
In addition, this is not an obscure matter, Christianity collapses in the denial of the virgin birth. Old Testament prophecy says that the Messiah would be born of a virgin:
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
The testimony of Matthew and Luke must be called into question if Jesus was not miraculously placed into the womb of Mary. The doctrine of Jesus being part human and part god makes him comparable to the titans of Greek and Roman mythology, greater than men but less than a god. This concept refutes Scripture :
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
This doctrine was not a sin committed in a moment of weakness and fear as Peter’s denial was. Of course all men have sinned, with one exception, but that is different from repeatedly espousing a doctrine contrary to scripture and saying I wporship the same Jesus you do , I am a Christian.
I have read some of your posts about how you would witness to a LDS and I must agree, showing them the satisfaction of communing with the one true God is a great way to start. But this forum is not for witnessing to others, but to answer and debate questions. If I had a chance to talk to a LDS I wouldn’t start with “You don’t believe in the real Jesus, you’re going to hell!” But if an LDS engaged me in a debate about doctrine I would bring up these things and not shy away from respectful confrontation.
Sorry to take so long to respond, nursing school, two kids, Mothers’ Day and all that.
God Bless

 

[duneman]

Former Mormon. You are right, this other person is wrong. Mormons do believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world and that His sacrifice is the Atonement.

The BoM does not contradict this.

There are many of their doctrines that do not conform to traditional Christian teachings, but this is not one of them.

from Mormon to Catholic ? wow that was a big jump… what happened??

 

[Stephen168]

I think you hit the nail right on the head. To say you have “studied” Mormonism isnt the same in any way, shape or form as having BEEN Mormon. The Catholic church has ugliness in it’s history, not the least of which is the abuse scandal. But it’s the LDS church’s dishonesty about it’s own history and practices that galls a lot of us. They misrepresent themselves and only if you know a lot of the history, of the people and the doctrines etc can you make sense of it. These doctrines and the way the leadership has applied it has destroyed and continues to destroy lives and those outside the church need to understand that.

I think someone can ‘study’ Mormonism and come to the same conclusions you have, but if one has never been Mormon they will never understand the culture. I also think there is a difference between actual ‘study’; and ‘drinking the kool-aid’ calling it study. For example:

Actually these musings of Brigham Young have been denied by the Mormon Church.

These doctrines and the way the leadership has applied it has destroyed and continues to destroy lives and those outside the church need to understand that.

Do you have an example of hurtful doctrine?

 

[TheExorcist]

I think someone can ‘study’ Mormonism and come to the same conclusions you have, but if one has never been Mormon they will never understand the culture. I also think there is a difference between actual ‘study’; and ‘drinking the kool-aid’ calling it study. For example:
Do you have an example of hurtful doctrine?

I think one of the biggest examples is the Temple. Some of you on here may have been privy to threads about this. The temple is one of the more exclusionary aspects of Mormonism. As a new convert (especially if you are younger) you will constantly hear that being married in the Temple is the highest aspiration you can have. However you may not realize until it’s too late that if you’re family (mother, father etc) are not members of the church they cannot partake with you in that most joyous of days.

Also, one of the things Rebecca and I have discussed that you can’t understand unless you “drink the Kool Aid” is the complete hold the leadership has over the average member. One of the things you do when you go to the Temple during the endowment ceremony is you make certain covenants. One of those covenants is to refrain from “evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed” and that puts the actual fear of God into members. One of the problem that causes is that it gives church authorities a power that cannot be underestimated.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jean Michael…

I am agreeing with these refuting you…it is one thing to have interfaith dialogue with others…I have done so with Mormons and have enjoyed their friendship. I like them very much.

But what I dislike is the misrepresentation within Mormon, what the culture does to its people, how members of Mormonism appear to have a harder time accepting a Catholic into their family, the tragedy (I’d be like the mother crying my heart out) of not witnessing the sealing of my adult child, and other practices tied to money, as well as the lack of formation and education in what the Mormons designate as the priesthood.

Finally, the greatest problem I have with Mormonism is their invalidation of Christianity–literally after the fact. And it is done through misrepresentation and projected competition with the Catholic Church. The word, ‘stake’, is pretty indicative of their intentions, and I refused my husband to move us to SLC.

Saying Catholicism, our priesthood and Christianity in general is apostate is akin to declaring you were born in America, but you aren’t American, and I can prove that because I said so.

So people come here with hard reactions…you are not seeing the injury done to them. You have to recognize abuse, address it, try to correct it. Of course, people aren’t willing to change. We cannot change anyone. Hopefully there are those here who can help Mormons in general come to a better place in understanding the faith of others, and see how others were not satisfied being Mormons, and for very grave reasons.

I do pastoral work and one thing we must do is recognize the injury done to another person…sometimes their behavior isn’t that positive, you have to get beyond that, and then love and work with them. It takes time.

 

[Stephen168]

I think one of the biggest examples is the Temple. Some of you on here may have been privy to threads about this. The temple is one of the more exclusionary aspects of Mormonism. As a new convert (especially if you are younger) you will constantly hear that being married in the Temple is the highest aspiration you can have. However you may not realize until it’s too late that if you’re family (mother, father etc) are not members of the church they cannot partake with you in that most joyous of days.

It is this practice that makes me shake my head when someone, usually a Mormon, claims Mormons are pro-family. When my daughter married a non-Catholic, all her in-laws were there.

 

[TheExorcist]

Jean Michael…

I am agreeing with these refuting you…it is one thing to have interfaith dialogue with others…I have done so with Mormons and have enjoyed their friendship. I like them very much.

But what I dislike is the misrepresentation within Mormon, what the culture does to its people, how members of Mormonism appear to have a harder time accepting a Catholic into their family, the tragedy (I’d be like the mother crying my heart out) of not witnessing the sealing of my adult child, and other practices tied to money, as well as the lack of formation and education in what the Mormons designate as the priesthood.

Finally, the greatest problem I have with Mormonism is their invalidation of Christianity–literally after the fact. And it is done through misrepresentation and projected competition with the Catholic Church. The word, ‘stake’, is pretty indicative of their intentions, and I refused my husband to move us to SLC.

Saying Catholicism, our priesthood and Christianity in general is apostate is akin to declaring you were born in America, but you aren’t American, and I can prove that because I said so.

So people come here with hard reactions…you are not seeing the injury done to them. You have to recognize abuse, address it, try to correct it. Of course, people aren’t willing to change. We cannot change anyone. Hopefully there are those here who can help Mormons in general come to a better place in understanding the faith of others, and see how others were not satisfied being Mormons, and for very grave reasons.

I do pastoral work and one thing we must do is recognize the injury done to another person…sometimes their behavior isn’t that positive, you have to get beyond that, and then love and work with them. It takes time.

And the former Mormons on here are the constructive ones. If you really want to see effect the church has had on people’s lives go visit some of the exMo sites that have bulletin boards. Wow! THAT’s harsh. But I don’t begrudge them bc I’ve seen the same kind of stories play out locally, if not in my ward then definitely on the stake level

 

[KathleenGee]

From my own personal reflections, if there is one change to the Word of God, it is destructive to human relationships and brings on unnecessary divisions and sufferings.

In the Catholic Church, many times there are times where the lay people with a few clerics got the Church back on its feet. The Church is hierarchical, but when it becomes top-heavy, a movement follows to bring back balance.

 

[po18guy]

PO, if you do anything learn to be like Christ. If you have a passion for studying other religions like me, then do so, but understand that it is not necessary. To be a disciple of Christ is to learn to love first, to forgive, to be compassionate and patient with others, and to plead for forgiveness always.

Do you mean our Lord’s seven-fold condemnation of the Pharisees? His telling them that the devil was their father? He did that out of charity, and as a warning to all. Also, every condemnation he issued, including the whipping of the money-changers, was done out of love and defense of the Truth.

Your attitude toward those who seek the destruction of your Church is way too relativistic to suit me. At some level, I still suspect that you are a stealth Mormon. Many times have their missionaries arrived at these forums using lies and deception in their clumsy attempts to steal souls from the Catholic Church.

I have made an in-depth study of Mormonism. I suspect I know Mormon history better than most Mormons. I view them as a Christian people albeit ones that have some problems.

This, I believe 100%. However, your opinion of the LDS as Christians puts you dangerously close to heresy, if you are actually Catholic. The LDS are a lot of things. Christian is not one of them. Your own faith teaches you (or should have taught you) that.

I do not judge or condemn members of the LDS faith. I present the truth to them, as they are grossly mislead by a succession of false prophets. It is not Christian charity to affirm them in their beliefs.

 

[JeanMichel]

Do you mean our Lord’s seven-fold condemnation of the Pharisees? His telling them that the devil was their father? He did that out of charity, and as a warning to all. Also, every condemnation he issued, including the whipping of the money-changers, was done out of love and defense of the Truth.

Your attitude toward those who seek the destruction of your Church is way too relativistic to suit me. At some level, I still suspect that you are a stealth Mormon. Many times have their missionaries arrived at these forums using lies and deception in their clumsy attempts to steal souls from the Catholic Church.

This, I believe 100%. However, your opinion of the LDS as Christians puts you dangerously close to heresy, if you are actually Catholic. The LDS are a lot of things. Christian is not one of them. Your own faith teaches you (or should have taught you) that.

I do not judge or condemn members of the LDS faith. I present the truth to them, as they are grossly mislead by a succession of false prophets. It is not Christian charity to affirm them in their beliefs.

Please understand that I kneel to one Master and that is Jesus Christ. What the Church thinks of me is not my problem. In fact, what others think of me is of no worth to me and how I live my life. I am a sinner of the worst order; no one need tell me that; but every night my prayers are for forgiveness and seeking to do better. There is an old Protestant saying/hymn, “What a friend we have in Jesus” that rings true to me. When I talk with my priest I am at peace; I come to him in peace and I leave in joy. We have many wonderful conversations; I have no secrets from him.

My feelings about Mormons is due to personal experience. I know what the Church thinks of the Mormon Church, but I have said nothing that conflicts with their statements. A question: How many Catholics do you know that know Church doctrine perfectly and are completely aligned with every doctrine of the Church? Now, how many Mormons know their doctrine perfectly and their beliefs are perfectly aligned? People are individuals; I have never know a religion that produced clones and it is naive to think the Mormon church has succeeded where every other church as failed. Further, I am an advocate of loving others, sharing the beauty of the Church, and rejecting the bitter, heartless, foul manner that others talk about the doctrines and beliefs of other churches. I see no benefit in it. I reject it just as I reject anti-Catholic filth. God help us when we imitate the work of darkness in an effort to bring light to the lives of others.

 

[po18guy]

Please understand that I kneel to one Master and that is Jesus Christ. What the Church thinks of me is not my problem. We have many wonderful conversations; I have no secrets from him.

But, from my viewpoint, neither do you show much confidence in the Church that Jesus Christ established to lead you to heaven. We err if and when we attempt to separate Jesus from His Church. What the Church thinks of you can send you to hell, since the Church, by the authority of Christ, can bind your sins to you. Are you sure this is what you meant to say? .

My feelings about Mormons is due to personal experience. I know what the Church thinks of the Mormon Church, but I have said nothing that conflicts with their statements.

No one here wishes ill will toward Mormons - they are souls at least as beloved by God as you or I. But, they are mislead by a false teaching, and by false prophets. Mormon men desire to be gods. Does this not bother you?

A question: How many Catholics do you know that know Church doctrine perfectly and are completely aligned with every doctrine of the Church? Now, how many Mormons know their doctrine perfectly and their beliefs are perfectly aligned? People are individuals; I have never know a religion that produced clones and it is naive to think the Mormon church has succeeded where every other church as failed.

Does truth matter? I ask again, because you seem to think that we all have individual truth. This is the exact definition of relativism.

Further, I am an advocate of loving others, sharing the beauty of the Church, and rejecting the bitter, heartless, foul manner that others talk about the doctrines and beliefs of other churches.

Sounds pretty judgmental. What do you think of a Mormon who lies and decieves others to gain a convert? Any problem with that? Certainly, you remember who is the liar and father of lies. Are we to love him, as well?

 

[KathleenGee]

Good points here…how much do we love and accept, and how much to we refuse…and what do we do with it?..Privatize it? Aren’t we supposed to be a light to the world, and to follow the works of mercy that do include instructing those who are ignorant of the right way?

 

[po18guy]

Good points here…how much do we love and accept, and how much to we refuse…and what do we do with it?..Privatize it? Aren’t we supposed to be a light to the world, and to follow the works of mercy that do include instructing those who are ignorant of the right way?

Yes, we are to be light for the world, at all times and in all places. Yet, that does not necessarily mean tolerating the evil of lies and deception which we occasionally encounter from certain others. It means that, at times, we will have to combat it, just like we must engage in spiritual warfare the entire time we are on this earth.

I must point out that today, we are much more tolerant of heresy and false doctrines than in times past. If we strictly followed scripture, 2 Thessalonians 3 in particular, we would simply write them off and forget about them. Yet, we engage them - not to judge, but to admonish as brothers and sisters. However, as has been correctly pointed out, we must do so with charity. I have certain failed at times in that regard and it is a weakness which I must also combat. But, if we believe that we posses the truth, then truth demands a defense. If we believe that Jesus Christ is fully present in the Catholic Church, then He must also be defended. We are in a battle for souls, and not all paths are truth and light.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

Getting back to my original post… I’ve been thinking about this and it seems to me that LDS vs. other Christians’ beliefs about Jesus could be (roughly) likened to two people having a conversation about a third person who they both say they knew, who has since passed away:

Christian: So you knew Bob Smith? Lived on 10th Street?

LDS: Sure, I knew Bob. He used to be a mechanic back in the 80’s.

C: Oh, no, must be a different Bob, the Bob on 10th st. was never a mechanic. He told me he worked at Microsoft ever since he got out of college.

LDS: Well, he worked at Microsoft in the 90s, but back in the 80s he was a mechanic. And that’s him-- he lived on 10th street.

C: I can’t imagine that we’re talking about the same guy. How did you hear he was a mechanic? Did he tell you that?

LDS: No, I heard it from someone else.

C: Did THAT person know him?

LDS: I guess. He had a lot of information about Bob.

C: I still don’t think it’s the same Bob.

LDS: You just don’t know as much about Bob as I do – I know someone who knew him better than you.

C: Well, I just don’t trust your source – I knew Bob, and he NEVER said anything about being a mechanic.

---

So, in summary, the answer to my original question is – both people would say they know him, but would disagree on some pretty basic facts about him. The interpretation on whether that makes an LDS a Christian is dependent on which side of the fence you’re on.

 

[TheExorcist]

Getting back to my original post… I’ve been thinking about this and it seems to me that LDS vs. other Christians’ beliefs about Jesus could be (roughly) likened to two people having a conversation about a third person who they both say they knew, who has since passed away:

Christian: So you knew Bob Smith? Lived on 10th Street?

LDS: Sure, I knew Bob. He used to be a mechanic back in the 80’s.

C: Oh, no, must be a different Bob, the Bob on 10th st. was never a mechanic. He told me he worked at Microsoft ever since he got out of college.

LDS: Well, he worked at Microsoft in the 90s, but back in the 80s he was a mechanic. And that’s him-- he lived on 10th street.

C: I can’t imagine that we’re talking about the same guy. How did you hear he was a mechanic? Did he tell you that?

LDS: No, I heard it from someone else.

C: Did THAT person know him?

LDS: I guess. He had a lot of information about Bob.

C: I still don’t think it’s the same Bob.

LDS: You just don’t know as much about Bob as I do – I know someone who knew him better than you.

C: Well, I just don’t trust your source – I knew Bob, and he NEVER said anything about being a mechanic.

---

So, in summary, the answer to my original question is – both people would say they know him, but would disagree on some pretty basic facts about him. The interpretation on whether that makes an LDS a Christian is dependent on which side of the fence you’re on.

Yes that seems to be about right. It was when I realized how improbable that Bob could EVER have been a mechanic was when I started to want out.

 

[lax16]

No now. Not sure if there was one of the 19th century leaders who taught that, however. Perhaps, but it never was considered officially defined and taught even back then as official doctrine to my knowledge

Yes, the LDS concept of what they call the Godhead is entirely different in substance from the traditional theology of the Trinity. I can’t image any Mormon claiming otherwise.

Marie - It was definitely taught by LDS presidents and they are prophets too right? Can prophets speak of such things “unofficially”?

Wilford Woodruff - 4th President 1887-1989
“And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family. Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.”

Brigham Young - 2nd President 1847-1877
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.”

Ezra Taft Benson - 13th President 1985-1994
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father.”

Joseph Fielding Smith - 10th President 1970-72
“Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of man, and that man was God! They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge this statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible.”

Joseph F. Smith - 6th President 1901-1918
“You all know that your fathers are indeed your fathers and that your mothers are indeed your mothers, you all know that don’t you? You cannot deny it. Now, we are told in scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father. The Christian denominations believe that Christ was begotten not of God but of the spirit that overhsadowed his mother. This is nonsense. Why will not the world receive the truth? Why will they not believe the Father when he says that Jesus Christ is His only begotten Son? Why will they try to explain this truth away and make mystery of it?”

 

[po18guy]

Yes that seems to be about right. It was when I realized how improbable that Bob could EVER have been a mechanic was when I started to want out.

It all boils down to the choice between many prophets (ending with God in Christ) who revealed the One God, versus a single man’s claim that a theretofore unknown angel revealed something to him by a theretofore unknown method, which revealed that there are many gods. Whom do you trust?

 

[lax16]

During a recent conversation, someone I know claimed that LDS are not Christians. (I know that this is a common belief among non-LDS, but bear with me). I questioned this, because as I understood it, LDS believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that he is Christ and Redeemer. This other person claimed that the LDS do not believe in Christ, that they believe he was a prophet and a great man, but not the true Christ.

I have never read the Book of Mormon, so I didn’t really feel confident arguing. The other person claims that the Book of Mormon has conflicting messages from the Bible and that it states that Jesus was not the Savior.

I’m still pretty sure he was wrong. And (name removed by moderator)ut from LDS would be appreciated.

The teaching that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers is also something that separates Christians from Mormons.
(bold mine)

“Jess L. Christensen, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, June 1986, 25–26; Jess L. Christensen, Institute of Religion director at Utah State University, Logan, Utah. On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. **But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of ****our Heavenly Father **and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)”