LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

[KathleenGee]

Do these Mormon statements also have contradictions within them?..

 

[ParkerD]

The teaching that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers is also something that separates Christians from Mormons.
(bold mine)

“Jess L. Christensen, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, June 1986, 25–26; Jess L. Christensen, Institute of Religion director at Utah State University, Logan, Utah. On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. **But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of ****our Heavenly Father **and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)”

Lax16,

If Jess Christensen were participating here, I would be able to ask him where in the scriptures it says that “Lucifer is offspring of our Heavenly Father”, and I don’t think he would find it. Someday we may find out that this belief, by some, is not quite correct.

What we do read is that Satan said, “I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” “Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him,…I caused that he should be cast down;” “And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.” (Moses 4:1, 3)

 

[JeanMichel]

Jean Michael…

I am agreeing with these refuting you…it is one thing to have interfaith dialogue with others…I have done so with Mormons and have enjoyed their friendship. I like them very much.

But what I dislike is the misrepresentation within Mormon, what the culture does to its people, how members of Mormonism appear to have a harder time accepting a Catholic into their family, the tragedy (I’d be like the mother crying my heart out) of not witnessing the sealing of my adult child, and other practices tied to money, as well as the lack of formation and education in what the Mormons designate as the priesthood.

Finally, the greatest problem I have with Mormonism is their invalidation of Christianity–literally after the fact. And it is done through misrepresentation and projected competition with the Catholic Church. The word, ‘stake’, is pretty indicative of their intentions, and I refused my husband to move us to SLC.

Saying Catholicism, our priesthood and Christianity in general is apostate is akin to declaring you were born in America, but you aren’t American, and I can prove that because I said so.

So people come here with hard reactions…you are not seeing the injury done to them. You have to recognize abuse, address it, try to correct it. Of course, people aren’t willing to change. We cannot change anyone. Hopefully there are those here who can help Mormons in general come to a better place in understanding the faith of others, and see how others were not satisfied being Mormons, and for very grave reasons.

I do pastoral work and one thing we must do is recognize the injury done to another person…sometimes their behavior isn’t that positive, you have to get beyond that, and then love and work with them. It takes time.

Kathleen, are you saying that Catholics have an easy time of accepting a Mormon into their family? This sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Both churches teach that their members should marry their own and not marry those of other faiths. How many non-Catholics have gone through RICA just to be able to marry a Catholic? Let’s at least be willing to look at ourselves honestly before we condemn others. The fact is that Catholics and Mormons do the same thing because they both believe in their respective churches.

You think Mormons sit around trying to compete with Catholicism? I am sorry but that is laughable. You have the Mormon church with 13 million members and Catholicism with over a billion. There is no competition; there is not even a game. They do not have a desire to invalidate anything, but to validate their own message. If that were not the case there would not be the plethora of anti-Mormon websites attempting to destroy their beliefs.

What is wonderful about what you wrote is the last paragraph. That was very much appreciated and we should always remember such things. It would allow us to understand such bitter feelings found in others.

 

[catholic-rcia]

You think Mormons sit around trying to compete with Catholicism? I am sorry but that is laughable.

Every Mormon Missionary who walks into a home to preach a different Gospel is in direct competition with Jesus Himself / His Catholic Church.

It is they who layed this gauntlet down, not the Chritians of all Christian denominations.

I know this through experience, its a fact. I would share these experiences if you like.

Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[KathleenGee]

Why do the Mormons use the word ‘stake’…? Claiming new converts from Christianity?

Again, rejecting Christianity 1800 years after the fact, with Mormons claiming they are the true Christians and likewise, refusing to take the name Christian – is not laughable.

JohnMichael, the former Mormons here have been quite clear with you…and they live at Mother Lode.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why do the Mormons use the word ‘stake’…? Claiming new converts from Christianity?

I had no idea why the word stake is used, it is just one of the familiar words. I also just received a postcard in the mail today reminding me to attend stake conference. Funny stuff.

This is what the Mormon wiki says about the origins of the word:

a stake is an administrative unit composed of multiple congregations, or wards. A stake may be compared to a diocese in the Roman Catholic Church. The name “stake” derives from the metaphor employed by Isaiah, comparing Zion to a tent fastened securely by stakes: Look upon Zion … a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken. Isaiah 33:20 Enlarge the place of thy tent … lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes. Isaiah 54:2 It can also be considered a reference to the stakes that supported the Biblical tabernacle housing the Ark of the Covenant.

So yeah, it has connotations regarding conversion.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Every Mormon Missionary who walks into a home to preach a different Gospel is in direct competition with Jesus Himself / His Catholic Church.

It is they who layed this gauntlet down, not the Chritians of all Christian denominations.

I know this through experience, its a fact. I would share these experiences if you like.

Rich
www.utahmission.com

Yes, they actively target Christians to convert to following Joseph Smith. If they considered themselves Christian, the same as all who are Christian, there would be no need for this massive effort that wounds the Body of Christ with each person they lead away.

The goal is to lead as many people away from Truth as they possibly can, and they spend an enormous amount of resources in this effort. Targeting the emotionally weak and those who are weak in their faith, in an attempt to break down people’s faith by spreading the great lie they call a “great apostasy”.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks for the wiki ref, Rebecca…

To me when I read ‘stake’ in context of church name…I think of its use in ‘staking claims’…someone putting a stake down to claim new territory for themselves…taking away from previous owner or habitant…

 

[TheExorcist]

You think Mormons sit around trying to compete with Catholicism? I am sorry but that is laughable. You have the Mormon church with 13 million members and Catholicism with over a billion. There is no competition; there is not even a game.

If you truly believe this then you don’t know the Mormon church very well. They believe that the “restored gospel of Jesus Christ” will fill the Earth some day. Here are a couple examples. When I was on my mission there were a few things that we used to recite at least once a week, in some cases much more. One is My Missionary Commission by Bruce R McConkie (an LDS Apostle): “I am called of God.
My authority is above that of kings of the earth. By revelation I have been selected as a personal representative of the Lord Jesus Christ.He is my master and He has chosen me to represent Him–to stand in His place, to say and do what He Himself would say and do if He personally were ministering to the very people to whom He has sent me. My voice is His voice, and my acts are His acts; my doctrine is His doctrine. My Commission is to do what He wants done; To say what He wants said; to be a living modern witness in word and in deed of the divinity of his great and marvelous Latter-day work.
How great is my calling!” and then there is the Standard of Truth which is a quote from Joseph Smith, "“The Standard of Truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame. But the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and dependent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, until the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah will say, ‘The work is done.’”

Its almost like megalomania on a group-think level. But its worse because they believe God is on their side.

 

[ParkerD]

If you truly believe this then you don’t know the Mormon church very well. They believe that the “restored gospel of Jesus Christ” will fill the Earth some day. Here are a couple examples. When I was on my mission there were a few things that we used to recite at least once a week, in some cases much more. One is My Missionary Commission by Bruce R McConkie (an LDS Apostle): “I am called of God.
My authority is above that of kings of the earth. By revelation I have been selected as a personal representative of the Lord Jesus Christ.He is my master and He has chosen me to represent Him–to stand in His place, to say and do what He Himself would say and do if He personally were ministering to the very people to whom He has sent me. My voice is His voice, and my acts are His acts; my doctrine is His doctrine. My Commission is to do what He wants done; To say what He wants said; to be a living modern witness in word and in deed of the divinity of his great and marvelous Latter-day work.
How great is my calling!” and then there is the Standard of Truth which is a quote from Joseph Smith, "“The Standard of Truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame. But the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and dependent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, until the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah will say, ‘The work is done.’”

…they believe God is on their side.

Indeed, He is on the side of anyone who follows the Savior, and the Savior is a larger Light and a larger Truth than is encompassed in any one religion. “Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess”–that is how large the sweep of the Savior’s saving and redeeming power is. Gospel truths are given as those who desire them, seek them. As in “seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened.” (The reverse is also true.)

(By the way, that “Missionary Commission” may have been singular to your particular mission, since I know many missionaries and was one also and have never heard that used.)

To believe that the Millennium will really happen, is to believe that the Bible is really true, and during the Millennium there will indeed be a time when “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the seas.” There are those of us who look forward to that day, and understand that it is being accomplished in the Lord’s own way and on His own timetable, and it will never be perceived by those who have a “dream of a night vision” and when they awaken, they find that the success they thought they were dreaming about was not the reality. It will come as a surprise, and fulfill the prophecies of Isaiah, of Jeremiah, and of Daniel.

 

[Stephen168]

Do you have an example of hurtful doctrine?

I think one of the biggest examples is the Temple. Some of you on here may have been privy to threads about this. The temple is one of the more exclusionary aspects of Mormonism. As a new convert (especially if you are younger) you will constantly hear that being married in the Temple is the highest aspiration you can have. However you may not realize until it’s too late that if you’re family (mother, father etc) are not members of the church they cannot partake with you in that most joyous of days.

Both churches teach that their members should marry their own and not marry those of other faiths.** How many non-Catholics have gone through RICA just to be able to marry a Catholic?**

Not one.

It is this practice that makes me shake my head when someone, usually a Mormon, claims Mormons are pro-family. When my daughter married a non-Catholic, all her in-laws were there.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

Kathleen, are you saying that Catholics have an easy time of accepting a Mormon into their family? This sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Both churches teach that their members should marry their own and not marry those of other faiths. How many non-Catholics have gone through RICA just to be able to marry a Catholic? Let’s at least be willing to look at ourselves honestly before we condemn others. The fact is that Catholics and Mormons do the same thing because they both believe in their respective churches.

No one needs to convert to marry a Catholic in a Catholic wedding ceremony. All they have to do is to promise not to hinder the Catholic spouse in practicing their Catholic faith, and the Catholic spouse has promised to raise the children Catholic, so the non-Catholic spouse has also promised not to hinder that effort, either. They can then be married in a Catholic church by a Catholic priest and can invite anyone they want, regardless of their religion. I have a close personal friend who married a non-practicing Muslim man, and she told me all about it. Also, we have a family friend who is a priest and he told me the same.

This is NOTHING like a Temple wedding, where no non-Mormon can even be in attendance, never mind be one of the individuals getting married!! If a Mormon married a non-Mormon, it can NEVER be in the Temple.

 

[TheExorcist]

It is this practice that makes me shake my head when someone, usually a Mormon, claims Mormons are pro-family. When my daughter married a non-Catholic, all her in-laws were there.

Yes, the LDS church is VERY pro family…As long as you are a good little TBM, obeying your priesthood leaders, paying your tithing, magnifying your calling, etc

Express a divergent view point and you will find trouble really quick.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Kathleen, are you saying that Catholics have an easy time of accepting a Mormon into their family? This sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Both churches teach that their members should marry their own and not marry those of other faiths. How many non-Catholics have gone through RICA just to be able to marry a Catholic? Let’s at least be willing to look at ourselves honestly before we condemn others. The fact is that Catholics and Mormons do the same thing because they both believe in their respective churches.

It’s things like this that make Catholics doubt your claims.

 

[JeanMichel]

Why do the Mormons use the word ‘stake’…? Claiming new converts from Christianity?

Again, rejecting Christianity 1800 years after the fact, with Mormons claiming they are the true Christians and likewise, refusing to take the name Christian – is not laughable.

JohnMichael, the former Mormons here have been quite clear with you…and they live at Mother Lode.

I also know when a person is not objective. Have you ever talked with an ex-Catholic who joined another denomination, and is very enthusiastic about their new church? I have met a few and I know they are far from objective about the Catholic Church. In fact, their view of the truth is…unbalanced. Why would I give these ex-Mormons any more credence than I give these ex-Catholics? Do you think these ex-Catholics have a level, neutral opinion of the Church? Neither do I.

No Mormon that I have ever talked with has ever declared that all other Christian churches are not Christian. They have claimed every time that they are the true “restored” church of Jesus Christ; the “true” church, etc. but they have never claimed to be the only true Christians on the earth. The Orthodox claim to be the true church, several other groups claim to be the true church; I don’t see where the Mormons are doing anything unique or different.

I have never understood why Mormons have never used the word Christian. Granted they use the name of Jesus in the title of their church, but even from the very beginnings of their church I have never heard that they took the name Christian. I have read that the term Mormon was first used as a derogatory name used by critics of their church and over time they just assumed it and used it themselves. They did seem to not care what others thought of them, but that has not been so for decades. This criticism of not being Christians seems to have created a true wound for them and one they won’t let go of. I wonder what I would feel if someone said you may believe that Jesus was and is the promised Messiah, is the Son of God, that he died for for all the sins of humanity, was raised from the dead, sits on the right hand of the Father, and will return one day, BUT you are certainly NOT a Christian! I think I would feel wounded too. How do you think you would feel?

For me, it has been easier to recognize individuals that follow Jesus as Christians and then talk about true doctrine rather to insult them by saying they are not Christians even when I know they follow Jesus.

I dislike being put in the position of defending this group all the time. We have many other Catholics that feel as I do and have spoken before in defense of these Mormons. We do have a few Mormons participants, but they are overwhelmed and unable to respond to many comments.

At the same time I am glad there are not many Mormons here. This is a Catholic forum and we are all here to learn about the glories of the Church. I would much rather focus on talking about truth and helping those that come here for answers.

 

[JeanMichel]

If you truly believe this then you don’t know the Mormon church very well. They believe that the “restored gospel of Jesus Christ” will fill the Earth some day. Here are a couple examples. When I was on my mission there were a few things that we used to recite at least once a week, in some cases much more. One is My Missionary Commission by Bruce R McConkie (an LDS Apostle): “I am called of God.
My authority is above that of kings of the earth. By revelation I have been selected as a personal representative of the Lord Jesus Christ.He is my master and He has chosen me to represent Him–to stand in His place, to say and do what He Himself would say and do if He personally were ministering to the very people to whom He has sent me. My voice is His voice, and my acts are His acts; my doctrine is His doctrine. My Commission is to do what He wants done; To say what He wants said; to be a living modern witness in word and in deed of the divinity of his great and marvelous Latter-day work.
How great is my calling!” and then there is the Standard of Truth which is a quote from Joseph Smith, "“The Standard of Truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame. But the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and dependent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, until the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah will say, ‘The work is done.’”

Its almost like megalomania on a group-think level. But its worse because they believe God is on their side.

Exorcist, if these words were repeated by a priest does it suddenly become wonderful? Or would you think the priest was a megalomaniac?

I am not insulted by these words, but it certainly let’s me know how committed these people are and how much more committed we need to be. I think we need to be just as committed to helping others find the truth.

 

[JeanMichel]

It’s things like this that make Catholics doubt your claims.

Please explain.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

JeanMichel,

Why no response to my post regarding Temple Weddings?

 

[catholic-rcia]

Exorcist, if these words were repeated by a priest does it suddenly become wonderful? Or would you think the priest was a megalomaniac?

I am not insulted by these words, but it certainly let’s me know how committed these people are and how much more committed we need to be. I think we need to be just as committed to helping others find the truth.

I am committed. I am around many other committed Catholics here in Utah. You are around them right now as well. What astounds me about the Catholics I surround myself with is their spirituality. When I am with them we speak about many things spiritually.

And this is coming from one who once believed Catholics to be cold. You see the first few times I attended Mass they did not all come up to me to welcome me as if I was the most important person in the room. Or a fish to be caught. No I had to get out of myself and turn to them. In this I found the warmest, most loving people I have ever known. My conversion did not come by way of a plan that was going to make my life better, more comfortable, more blessed, rather it came by way of falling in love with Jesus.

No one tells us what we should be doing; we pretty much go with the flow of life. My life consists of before I go to confession, while I am in Confession, then after Confession until I return again. It keeps me close to Jesus so that I can be a better servant for Him as good works is always about Him, never about us. We get to share in His life and this is the best gift we as Christians will ever have been gifted.

Knowing that the Catholic Church is the most charitable organization on earth should tell you something. Not to many Catholics boast on this fact because boasting is a great sin. I bring it because you have brought it. I once asked a Priest for help, he asked what do you need. He gave me what I needed. When I went to embrace him he turned and walked away giving praise to God. I did not recognize this as sin then, giving praise to a man who knew where all praise goes. These are just some of the reasons I love being Catholic. It’s deep in truth, truth about our sin, a great place to take it. The Church gave me a good sense of the Holy Trinity. I know who I am, I know who I am not.

Here is one that I work with as to the RCIA. Take the time to read this. It may open your eyes.
http://utahmission.com/pages/Here_I_am.html

 

[TheExorcist]

Exorcist, if these words were repeated by a priest does it suddenly become wonderful? Or would you think the priest was a megalomaniac?

I am not insulted by these words, but it certainly let’s me know how committed these people are and how much more committed we need to be. I think we need to be just as committed to helping others find the truth.

I didnt say anything about your being insulted. You made an assertion:

You think Mormons sit around trying to compete with Catholicism? I am sorry but that is laughable. You have the Mormon church with 13 million members and Catholicism with over a billion. There is no competition; there is not even a game. They do not have a desire to invalidate anything, but to validate their own message.

And I was giving partial refutation to that assertion.