LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

[catholic-rcia]

Jesus is the Light, and nothing can outdo His generosity to us…

Jesus came to save all…and considering the plight of so many people in ancient times, it goes to say that hearing the Good News drew many to Him. Many in turn gave their life for Christ, many martyrs…humanly impossible without the interior presence of Christ within them…

Jesus has dramatically changed my own life. When I look back over the last 12 years its hard to look back at what I once was, yet Jesus’ love for me has never changed. Yes I am still a sinner but a sinner with Jesus now known in my life. He creates so much pause through His loving spirit hovering in every tiny corner of our lives.

A good example may be a lie. Before I would just say it and move on like nothing at all while its builds, builds and builds, quietly, slowly, gradually tearing me down, now I lie less and think “did I just say that” then I see His smile along with His words “Get back up, lets keep going” closer and closer to the door of His Cross in which I have complete faith.

I have also been given the strength through His presence of Confession to say to another “I just lied to you, this is the truth”. In some cases, many cases I have learned when it is tempting to lie to others, it’s best to say nothing at all.

In Christ
Rich
Now I am late to work!

 

[akira12]

No now. Not sure if there was one of the 19th century leaders who taught that, however. Perhaps, but it never was considered officially defined and taught even back then as official doctrine to my knowledge

Yes, the LDS concept of what they call the Godhead is entirely different in substance from the traditional theology of the Trinity. I can’t image any Mormon claiming otherwise.

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[Stephen168]

A little O/T - Do Oriental Orthodox also believe in real presence?

Jesus taught that the eucharist was his body to his Apostles. The Apostles handed that teaching down to the Bishops. The Bishops have handed it down from generation to generation. Any church with true historic apostolic succession believes in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

[KathleenGee]

In reference to Steven’s last post…you have to look at context, Parker.

When it came time to establish Christ’s Church, you look at the date…and it included the Apostles…Isaiah was coming to fulfillment in Christ Himself…but He was not hung on a tree yet…His mission accomplished at His death, resurrection, and ascension into heaven…but prior to His death, He established His church.

There were more prophets who followed Isaiah as well…

 

[KathleenGee]

Rich,

Always thanks to you for your sharing…always reflecting a deep prayer life and day to day commitment to Christ.

Hope you didn’t get late for work!!

 

[Jay53]

Parker, lets uncover a couple of things here. The statements you make concerning becoming “like Christ”, as you know, carry an entirely different connotation when coming from a Mormon as opposed to coming from a Catholic or even Protestant view.

From the Catholic perspective we “become like Christ” at the point of complete surrender to Him. We enter into the Body of Christ through our baptism and remain there through a life of repentance through the sacrament of Reconciliation and are nourished and strengthened by His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. There are some Catholics, such as St. Francis of Assisi and St. Padre Pio, that become so Christ-like in this life that they bear his very wounds in their bodies. We have thousands of these holy men and women that we call saints on which to model our lives. We know very well what it means to “be like Christ” and it is the purpose of our faith to become as much like Christ as we are able. You act as if this some great revelation that has been given to the Mormons and is hidden from the rest of us. The Catholic Church has been doing this for over 2,000 years.

When we realize our heavenly destiny we will “be like Christ” because we are the Body of Christ, not single members floating through the universe with our own private divinity in our own worlds as a result of some progression. We will experience “marriage” in heaven by partaking in the wedding feast of the Lamb as the Bride of Christ. We will share in the eternal glory of the Trinity, the family of God, as His adopted sons and daughters. And all of this through grace freely given by a most loving God who gave Himself for us.

So please do not act as if you are privileged as a Mormon to receive knowledge withheld from us gentiles. To become like Christ is the constant call of our Church.

VERY well said!!!

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,
Answers, in order of the two questions:
The people who place Peter in the position being described by Isaiah in Isaiah 22:22.

Those who say that to desire such a thing as to become like God, are being prideful (or other similar comparisons). One who doesn’t believe such a thing is even possible (which certainly does not fit in with our mortal perspective, but is promised many times in the New Testament) will not have either the faith or the trust necessary to allow the Savior to lead toward that “perfection” state of being “like God” and “like Christ.” It is only through Him that it is possible, and our mortal minds won’t comprehend what it means, but within that “perfection” state is a fullness of joy through a fullness of love and understanding and compassion.

Sorry, Parker, I overlooked this post. I would certainly agree that Isaiah 22:22, refers to Christ in the allegorical sense, no doubt about it. Our Church teaches us that this is the case. But to understand the passage typologically, we have to look at it from a literal sense as well in order to grasp the meaning. An unworthy “master of the palace”, named Shebna is deposed by God, and Elakim, who was worthy, is given Shebna’s authority and office. This is the exact imagery used by Jesus when giving the keys to the kingdom to Peter. It is a sign of authority, which Jesus very clearly gave to Peter and which Peter subsequently handed down to his successors. Peter received the authority to open and shut, to loose and bind. What the Church does on earth is done even in heaven. So yes, it applies to Peter as well because this authority, possessed by Jesus, was clearly given to him.

 

[KathleenGee]

Here again in Stephen’s answer is the Catholic understanding of context—

understanding passages of Scripture as they relate to salvation history regarding people and dates, all the way up to St. John the Baptist to Christ…

 

[ParkerD]

Sorry, Parker, I overlooked this post. I would certainly agree that Isaiah 22:22, refers to Christ in the allegorical sense, no doubt about it. Our Church teaches us that this is the case. But to understand the passage typologically, we have to look at it from a literal sense as well in order to grasp the meaning. An unworthy “master of the palace”, named Shebna is deposed by God, and Elakim, who was worthy, is given Shebna’s authority and office. This is the exact imagery used by Jesus when giving the keys to the kingdom to Peter. It is a sign of authority, which Jesus very clearly gave to Peter and which Peter subsequently handed down to his successors. Peter received the authority to open and shut, to loose and bind. What the Church does on earth is done even in heaven. So yes, it applies to Peter as well because this authority, possessed by Jesus, was clearly given to him.

SteveVH,

Since this thread still gets viewed, I suppose that I should answer your response here. (I had thought I should leave it be, but I guess I do owe a response rather than leave a misunderstood situation.)

As far as my thinking goes, I would expect that both John and Peter had a pretty thorough knowledge of the prophecies of Isaiah. They both show that in their own writings. If Peter thought that he was personally being represented in the prophecy in Isaiah 22:22 of Christ being the One who has the key of the house of David laid upon His shoulder (which is similar in the use of the words “upon his shoulder” to Isaiah 9:6 which surely all serious Bible students who believe in Christ agree is referring to Christ), then Peter or John or Luke would have mentioned this somewhere in their careful teaching to the early church members.

But they didn’t. Rather, John makes very clear in his vision that Christ is the only One who is the holder of the key of the house of David, for “no man shutteth” and “no man openeth” (Revelation 3:7), and Peter would be a “man”. Just because Peter held the keys to the kingdom doesn’t mean he held the key to open or shut the gates of heaven or of hell.

Further, if Peter thought he was represented in Isaiah 22:22, he would have to puzzle over who he was replacing (who was Shebna, in other words), since he was given keys to a kingdom which had not yet been set up on earth when the words of Matthew 16:19 were spoken concerning Peter. (In other words, he didn’t replace anyone in that office of holder of the keys of the kingdom on earth.) It couldn’t be that he “replaced” Christ, because Shebna could not possibly hold that connotation.

Peace to you and all.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

Another question from me, the OP:

If Heavenly Father is one of many gods, but is specifically The LDS’ father, then is Jesus Christ the savior for all Christians, or just LDS? Is Heavenly Father the father of all humans, or just LDS? Is Heavenly Father the same God of Muslims and Jews?

OK, so that was several questions.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

Since this thread still gets viewed, I suppose that I should answer your response here. (I had thought I should leave it be, but I guess I do owe a response rather than leave a misunderstood situation.)

As far as my thinking goes, I would expect that both John and Peter had a pretty thorough knowledge of the prophecies of Isaiah. They both show that in their own writings. If Peter thought that he was personally being represented in the prophecy in Isaiah 22:22 of Christ being the One who has the key of the house of David laid upon His shoulder (which is similar in the use of the words “upon his shoulder” to Isaiah 9:6 which surely all serious Bible students who believe in Christ agree is referring to Christ), then Peter or John or Luke would have mentioned this somewhere in their careful teaching to the early church members.

But they didn’t. Rather, John makes very clear in his vision that Christ is the only One who is the holder of the key of the house of David, for “no man shutteth” and “no man openeth” (Revelation 3:7), and Peter would be a “man”. Just because Peter held the keys to the kingdom doesn’t mean he held the key to open or shut the gates of heaven or of hell.

Further, if Peter thought he was represented in Isaiah 22:22, he would have to puzzle over who he was replacing (who was Shebna, in other words), since he was given keys to a kingdom which had not yet been set up on earth when the words of Matthew 16:19 were spoken concerning Peter. (In other words, he didn’t replace anyone in that office of holder of the keys of the kingdom on earth.) It couldn’t be that he “replaced” Christ, because Shebna could not possibly hold that connotation.

Peace to you and all.

Parker, it seems as if you are trying to make an argument that we believe Isaiah is referring to Peter only, and not to Christ. That is not the case. Peter did not replace Christ any more than an embassador of a country replaces its president when given the authority to enter into an agreement on the president’s behalf. As I said, of course it is referring to Jesus, but Jesus clearly passed on to Peter what He possessed; the authority to loose and bind, open and shut. Peter received the authority of Christ. You must ignore Christ’s words to Peter in order to believe that this same authority was given to anyone else. He addresses Peter alone, not John. Any conclusion to the contrary is simply a product of assumption and speculation.

 

[ParkerD]

Another question from me, the OP:

1. If Heavenly Father is one of many gods, but is specifically The LDS’ father, then is Jesus Christ the savior for all Christians, or just LDS?
2. Is Heavenly Father the father of all humans?
3. Is Heavenly Father the same God of Muslims and Jews?

Hi, StJudePray4Me,

Answers in reverse order:

(3) Yes, of everyone who has ever lived, which includes all people everywhere beginning from Adam and Eve through all time; (2) yes, of everyone who has ever lived.

(1) Jesus Christ is the One and Only Savior of everyone who has ever lived, and He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (thus He is the Great I AM, Jehovah, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush).

The LDS refer to Father in Heaven as Heavenly Father, or as Father in Heaven, or as God the Father, or as Elohim (but not using that title in our prayers). He is the Supreme Being, and brings those into a relationship with Him and His Only Begotten Son (united with Them in will and purpose and omniscience) those who have shown that they have a love for all truth, a love and respect for complete free will choice, a humility and selflessness that is completely other-centered and full of love and compassion, and a state of sinlessness through the atoning grace of His Beloved Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the One and only Messiah.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, it seems as if you are trying to make an argument that we believe Isaiah is referring to Peter only, and not to Christ. That is not the case. Peter did not replace Christ any more than an embassador of a country replaces its president when given the authority to enter into an agreement on the president’s behalf. As I said, of course it is referring to Jesus, but Jesus clearly passed on to Peter what He possessed; the authority to loose and bind, open and shut. Peter received the authority of Christ. You must ignore Christ’s words to Peter in order to believe that this same authority was given to anyone else. He addresses Peter alone, not John. Any conclusion to the contrary is simply a product of assumption and speculation.

SteveVH,

I would say, rather, that “a conclusion to the contrary is completely in agreement with the Bible (Matthew 18, Peter’s epistles and the book of Revelation) and with personal revelation through the Holy Spirit who confirms truths to individuals through their sincere heartfelt prayers if they have studied the Bible with an open heart”.

 

[Inishfree]

With great respect, I have a question. If the LDS Church is Christian in the same sense as Catholic and Protestant denominations, why is their a re-baptisim of the dead? Making people’s ancestors Morman by proxy?

When I became Catholic by personal choice and as an adult. I was not re-baptised. My Methodist baptism was considered as being valid.

 

[Sunstone]

With great respect, I have a question. If the LDS Church is Christian in the same sense as Catholic and Protestant denominations, why is their a re-baptisim of the dead? Making people’s ancestors Morman by proxy?

When I became Catholic by personal choice and as an adult. I was not re-baptised. My Methodist baptism was considered as being valid.

Mormons have their own interpretation of 1 Cor. 15:29, as well as teachings in their Doctrine & Covenants. They cite fragmentary, but nonetheless valid, evidence of some baptisms for the dead in early Christianity.

Mormons will tell you that baptisms for the dead do not make anyone Mormon. In Mormon thinking, the deceased person can choose to accept or reject the baptism by proxy.

Mormons do not recognize the authority of Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or any other form of Christianity. The converse is also true.

 

[ParkerD]

With great respect, I have a question. If the LDS Church is Christian in the same sense as Catholic and Protestant denominations, why is their a re-baptism of the dead? Making people’s ancestors Morman by proxy?

When I became Catholic by personal choice and as an adult. I was not re-baptised. My Methodist baptism was considered as being valid.

Hi, Inishfree,

A point of clarification about authority for baptism involves the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost, immediately after a person (including if the person is in the spirit world and is thus being given an opportunity for this gift by an ordinance done on the earth that can be accepted by them in the spirit world) is baptized.

These two ordinances go closely together, as was noted by the Savior in John 3:5 and by the teachings in Acts about the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost. Luke, in Acts, also notes that authority is vital for giving the gift of the Holy Ghost–so a baptism by validly received authority, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by validly received authority, combine as two ordinances that prepare a person, if they choose to receive them, for receiving the sanctifying influence of the Holy Spirit to guide them to all truth and to help them be sanctified and purified, or in other words, to have the “baptism of fire” by being refined through their personal repentance and sanctification.

There is a further sanctification process through the guiding influence of the Holy Spirit for those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost (including as a spirit person), that happens in the spirit world and helps prepare a person for their resurrection–when they will receive their body again through the power of the atoning grace of Jesus Christ.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Hi, StJudePray4Me,

Answers in reverse order:

(3) Yes, of everyone who has ever lived, which includes all people everywhere beginning from Adam and Eve through all time; (2) yes, of everyone who has ever lived.

(1) Jesus Christ is the One and Only Savior of everyone who has ever lived, and He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (thus He is the Great I AM, Jehovah, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush).

The LDS refer to Father in Heaven as Heavenly Father, or as Father in Heaven, or as God the Father, or as Elohim (but not using that title in our prayers). He is the Supreme Being, and brings those into a relationship with Him and His Only Begotten Son (united with Them in will and purpose and omniscience) those who have shown that they have a love for all truth, a love and respect for complete free will choice, a humility and selflessness that is completely other-centered and full of love and compassion, and a state of sinlessness through the atoning grace of His Beloved Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, the One and only Messiah.

Parker
For those viewing

If you were bringing this to one who did not know what Christianity has brought forth for two thousand years regarding who God is, who Jesus is, how you have written your thoughts is very misleading. I see it all the time here in Utah with those taught and baptized LDS. They do not learn the truth until after the Baptism, when they begin to research Chritsianity, look into it. This is why the retention rate for new LDS converts is so low compared to the Catholic Church’s retention. When you fall in love with Jesus, love itself , it tends to stick. .

We spend a year or more helping those who are considering entering into our family, we help them build a relationship with Jesus, to fall in love with Jesus. We hide nothing. When we speak about the Holy Trinity we are as clear as we can be, that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit our one in being. . That there is no other for this world or any other worlds that may exist. That they hold all things into existence. We will never posses what God has as God ourselves. Yet we have been gifted to share in what the Father and Son have always had through all of eternity. “Love”

God is creation itself, we have been created by God.

“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.’” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

 

[StJudePray4Me]

Parker
For those viewing

If you were bringing this to one who did not know what Christianity has brought forth for two thousand years regarding who God is, who Jesus is, how you have written your thoughts is very misleading. I see it all the time here in Utah with those taught and baptized LDS. They do not learn the truth until after the Baptism, when they begin to research Chritsianity, look into it. This is why the retention rate for new LDS converts is so low compared to the Catholic Church’s retention. When you fall in love with Jesus, love itself , it tends to stick. .

We spend a year or more helping those who are considering entering into our family, we help them build a relationship with Jesus, to fall in love with Jesus. We hide nothing. When we speak about the Holy Trinity we are as clear as we can be, that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit our one in being. . That there is no other for this world or any other worlds that may exist. That they hold all things into existence. We will never posses what God has as God ourselves. Yet we have been gifted to share in what the Father and Son have always had through all of eternity. “Love”

God is creation itself, we have been created by God.

“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.’” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

So how would you answer my questions?

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

I would say, rather, that “a conclusion to the contrary is completely in agreement with the Bible (Matthew 18, Peter’s epistles and the book of Revelation) and with personal revelation through the Holy Spirit who confirms truths to individuals through their sincere heartfelt prayers if they have studied the Bible with an open heart”.

Then believe what you will, Parker, you are certainly free to do so. I happen to find your position unconvincing. It is clear that Peter was chosen, above the rest of the Apostles. This does not mean that the other Apostles did not receive authority as well, but not the same authority. Christ said that he had been given “all authority in heaven and on earth” and then commanded all eleven of them to go out to all nations, baptising them and teaching them all that He had commanded, and then He promised to remain with His Church until the end of time (no anticipation of an apostasy here). But it was only to Peter that He gave the keys to the kingdom, signifying a different authority. Only Peter’s name was used as the foundation upon which Christ was to build His Church.

You can choose to ignore this and go through mental gymnastics in order to arrive at a different meaning, but those words remain and they are very clear. “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church…” He did this in order to maintain unity within His Church, among other reasons. He did not desire each “church” to operate independently of the others, as in the Orthodox Churches of today, even though we do recognize their apostolic authority, and he certainly did not desire the truth he handed down to Peter and the Apostles to be changed or modified by every guy that comes along with a different idea to the point that some “Christian” churches are unrecognizable as even being Christian other than in name only. It is why He sent the Holy Spirit to guide His Church into all truth. Those that choose to reject this Church have chosen to reject this truth as well.

As far as your claim that the Holy Spirit “confirms truths to individuals through their sincere heartfelt prayers if they have studied the Bible with an open heart” this is not evidence. Forget that fact that you are implying that the rest of us either do not have the Holy Spirit, or do not pray sincerely or do not study the Bible with an open heart and therefore have not arrived at your conclusion. One can always make the claim that “God told me so”, but when it conflicts with what we know He said, it is unconvincing, or worse.

 

[KathleenGee]

If anyone refuses to study the history of Catholicism and its beginnings, it is like you are exchanging splashes of water…they aren’t really answers but diversions…

Like if you answer back to context and dates with other reflections that imply well, you are different, and using the texts we use, then what is being proved? Why the separation…we see the same text…but in what context without actual events and unity?

So same readings are used that we identify with…but without context, history, and application…which implies a different agenda and practice that we would Not identify as the same.