LDS Belief's ... Who Determines the Truth?

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From en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah
Where is the hill Cumorah?
First, it is not the case that the Church authoritatively identifies the drumlin in western New York as the same Hill Cumorah mentioned in the text of the Book of Mormon. The Church has made it abundantly clear that it does not endorse any particular view of Book of Mormon geography.
Main article: Statements about Book of Mormon geography
The Church has no official position on any New World location described in the Book of Mormon. There is no official revelation in the Church establishing the drumlin in New York as the Hill Cumorah of the Book of Mormon where two nations were destroyed. **It is true that a number of Church leaders in the past expressed the opinion that the hill in New York is the same hill described in the Book of Mormon. Whether that opinion was based on personal revelation to those individuals cannot be known. And even if so, personal testimony on points such as this are contradictory, and are not binding on the Church, regardless of how high the position was of the person making the assertion. Only new revelation following proper procedure, and being accepted by the Church as a whole as binding can clear up this point. ** Statements from Joseph Smith or others on geography are not binding on the Church, despite the claims of various theorists.
Testimony by LDS prophets are not binding on the LDS Church?

Statements from JS are not binding on the Church? Joseph Smith knew how to get to Utah but he didn’t know the location of Hill Cumorah.

Someone fill this in for me…confused I am. If Mormons can not trust their prophets and can not trust the words of Joseph Smith on geography, how can they trust anything else that prophets or JS have said?

Pork
 
“The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening.” (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

“These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites.” (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

“Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites.” (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York. " (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Sept. 18, 1881 Journal of Discourses Vol. 22, pg. 224)

“Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites.” (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24)

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his’ son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

“Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. – That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord.” (The Latter-day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221)
“The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York .” (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)
 
"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, “by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all.” Mormon adds: “And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.”

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

“Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history…” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)
"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation .

[Editor’s Note: About 20 short paragraphs later this speaker says the following]

“This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’” (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)

Apostle LeGrand Richards, in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, chapter 7, also stated that Cumorah is in New York.
"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.

“Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah.”(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same ‘hill’ marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this ‘hill’ was called the ‘Hill Cumorah,’ by the Jaredites the ‘Hill Ramah’; it was that same ‘hill,’ in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the ‘Mormon Hill,’ of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)
In 1990 the office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York:
Click here to see an image of the original letter
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150

October 16, 1990

Bishop Darrel L. Brooks
Moore Ward
Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake
1000 Windemere
Moore, OK 73160

Dear Bishop Brooks:
Code:
I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward.  Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.
Sincerely yours,
(signed)
F. Michael Watson
Secretary to the First Presidency
 
From en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah

Testimony by LDS prophets are not binding on the LDS Church?

Statements from JS are not binding on the Church? Joseph Smith knew how to get to Utah but he didn’t know the location of Hill Cumorah.

Someone fill this in for me…confused I am. If Mormons can not trust their prophets and can not trust the words of Joseph Smith on geography, how can they trust anything else that prophets or JS have said?

Pork
This amongst other reasons is why more and more people leave Mormonism.
 
From en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah

Testimony by LDS prophets are not binding on the LDS Church?

Statements from JS are not binding on the Church? Joseph Smith knew how to get to Utah but he didn’t know the location of Hill Cumorah.

Someone fill this in for me…confused I am. If Mormons can not trust their prophets and can not trust the words of Joseph Smith on geography, how can they trust anything else that prophets or JS have said?

Pork
The answer is, what any individual Mormon feels at any point in time.

What is humorous to me is that FAIR has put themselves out as the arbitrators of Mormon truth. No, don’t listen to Smith, his were just his opinions. Listen to the opinions of the Mormon apologists!
 
The answer is, what any individual Mormon feels at any point in time.

What is humorous to me is that FAIR has put themselves out as the arbitrators of Mormon truth. No, don’t listen to Smith, his were just his opinions. Listen to the opinions of the Mormon apologists!
Hard to pin doctrine and teachings when they seem to be moving targets…
 
According to the LDS Church, the members of the First Presidency are “general authorities”, living prophets, seers and revelators through whom God continues to reveal the truth of the LDS religion. The Church’s traditions do not bind them, and if a prophecy given by the current President contradicts an earlier prophecy or teaching, then the current President is considered to be teaching correct doctrine. “A prophet is a teacher of known truth; a seer is a perceiver of hidden truth, a revelator is a bearer of new truth.”

So currently, Thomas Monson determines the truth.
 
According to the LDS Church, the members of the First Presidency are “general authorities”, living prophets, seers and revelators through whom God continues to reveal the truth of the LDS religion. The Church’s traditions do not bind them, and if a prophecy given by the current President contradicts an earlier prophecy or teaching, then the current President is considered to be teaching correct doctrine. “A prophet is a teacher of known truth; a seer is a perceiver of hidden truth, a revelator is a bearer of new truth.”

So currently, Thomas Monson determines the truth.
Hard to be a part of a Church where truth is a moving target…
 
A Mormon just believes…
the sad thing is, I know what I will believe in 10 years…20 years…30 years…

A mormon can only know what they believe TODAY. It could change tomorrow
 
Hard to pin doctrine and teachings when they seem to be moving targets…
I am trying to imagine belonging to a religion that must constantly back track and make new interpretations when faced with contradictions of prior “prophets”. How does one know that anything is true? I have always said that the Mormon mind-set would make an interesting psychological study.
 
I am trying to imagine belonging to a religion that must constantly back track and make new interpretations when faced with contradictions of prior “prophets”. How does one know that anything is true? I have always said that the Mormon mind-set would make an interesting psychological study.
It’s nothing short of Orwellian.

“Oceania is at war with Eurasia. Therefore Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.”
“Oceania is at war with Eastasia. Therefore Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.”
 
I am trying to imagine belonging to a religion that must constantly back track and make new interpretations when faced with contradictions of prior “prophets”. How does one know that anything is true? I have always said that the Mormon mind-set would make an interesting psychological study.
Compartmentalization, is how it’s done. But I agree, Mormonism is an ongoing lab experiment that is fascinating to watch.
 
Statements from JS are not binding on the Church?
Of course not everything that comes out of the mouth of any human being is considered doctrine by the church. You don’t stop being human or having your own opinions just because you are called into a position in any church.

I’m sure someone has the source of this quote, but our take on things is a prophet is only a prophet when speaking things revealed to him by the Holy Ghost.

I’m interested: Is every word that comes from Pope Francis, every homily, every time he is interviewed by a journalist, every private conversation he has - is all of that considered infallible scripture to Catholics?

If yes, I can see why you’d think LDS are odd to accept some things and look at other things as personal opinion.

If no, why pick on mormons for something you do yourself?
 
Of course not everything that comes out of the mouth of any human being is considered doctrine by the church. You don’t stop being human or having your own opinions just because you are called into a position in any church.

I’m sure someone has the source of this quote, but our take on things is a prophet is only a prophet when speaking things revealed to him by the Holy Ghost.

I’m interested: Is every word that comes from Pope Francis, every homily, every time he is interviewed by a journalist, every private conversation he has - is all of that considered infallible scripture to Catholics?

If yes, I can see why you’d think LDS are odd to accept some things and look at other things as personal opinion.

If no, why pick on mormons for something you do yourself?
It is very clearly stated in Catholic doctrine that the Pope is infallible when speaking about faith and morals. The Pope cannot and does not change doctrine.

What Smith taught was believed by his followers to be doctrine. God’s absolute truth. Now you call it “opinion”. So, what is Pres. Monson teaching today that is opinion, that you are following as God’s absolute truth, and some Mormon 50 years from now will call “opinion”?

I’ve never found LDS have any answer for this other than “I feel”. There is no objective truth in Mormonism. There is in Catholicism. If the Pope said today, “Hey everyone, God says practice polygamy!” We would look at the teachings of Jesus, the Apostles and the Church through the ages and say, “NOT!”.

YOU, have to “follow the prophet’s voice”, which may or may not be opinion.
 
Of course not everything that comes out of the mouth of any human being is considered doctrine by the church. You don’t stop being human or having your own opinions just because you are called into a position in any church.

Except BY said it was…at least when he spoke…was he lying?

I’m interested: Is every word that comes from Pope Francis, every homily, every time he is interviewed by a journalist, every private conversation he has - is all of that considered infallible scripture to Catholics?

You cannot compare. We do not consider The Pope a prophet. He never claimed to “walk the halls face to face with Jesus” as an LDS “prophet” proclaimed. And he never made the comment, as did BY, that everything he said is considered doctrine.

If no, why pick on mormons for something you do yourself?

Because we don’t. And our truth does not change from day to day, year to year, “prophet” to “prophet”
 
Of course not everything that comes out of the mouth of any human being is considered doctrine by the church. You don’t stop being human or having your own opinions just because you are called into a position in any church.
O contraire. If our Church leaders (bishops) start spouting something contrary to doctrine they are called on the carpet right then and there. If they persist in teaching this they are excommunicated. We were given the deposit of faith from the Apostles. We cannot vary from what we have received. We cannot create any “new doctrine” because the fullness of truth has already been given to us. Nor are bishops or priests allowed to just give their personal opinion if it conflicts with what we know to be true as found in our doctrines.
I’m interested: Is every word that comes from Pope Francis, every homily, every time he is interviewed by a journalist, every private conversation he has - is all of that considered infallible scripture to Catholics?
No, but then he doesn’t speak in contradiction to our doctrines and would never make a statement with the caveat that 'this is just my opinion" unless someone asked his opinion of the weather. As the leader of the Church he is to teach truth always and not vary from that truth given to us by the Apostles.
If yes, I can see why you’d think LDS are odd to accept some things and look at other things as personal opinion.

If no, why pick on mormons for something you do yourself?
Please give me an example of a Catholic Church leader who has given a personal opinion that was contrary to Catholic doctrine, who was not either admonished or excommunicated. Our bishops are not allowed to teach something and then say “but this is just my opinion”. They must always stay true to doctrine both officially and personally. If something is taught by a bishop, it must be doctrine.

This is not so, apparently with the LDS. They can teach anything and apparently it doesn’t matter if it is doctrinal. The problem is that those who are listening believe they are being spoken to by a prophet and it is only years later when the LDS church rejects what the “prophet” says that anyone knows it was just his opinion. They teach as if it were revelation.
 
Of course not everything that comes out of the mouth of any human being is considered doctrine by the church. You don’t stop being human or having your own opinions just because you are called into a position in any church.

But Joseph Smith was no ordinary human, was he? He claimed to be a prophet, to have had seen Jesus and many angels and visited by apostles.
I’m sure someone has the source of this quote, but our take on things is a prophet is only a prophet when speaking things revealed to him by the Holy Ghost.
 
Of course not everything that comes out of the mouth of any human being is considered doctrine by the church. You don’t stop being human or having your own opinions just because you are called into a position in any church.

I’m sure someone has the source of this quote, but our take on things is a prophet is only a prophet when speaking things revealed to him by the Holy Ghost.

I’m interested: Is every word that comes from Pope Francis, every homily, every time he is interviewed by a journalist, every private conversation he has - is all of that considered infallible scripture to Catholics?

If yes, I can see why you’d think LDS are odd to accept some things and look at other things as personal opinion.

If no, why pick on mormons for something you do yourself?
The problem with this as I see it is that when LDS are out there proseletysing, they lead the investigator to accept that theirs is the only true church built upon truth direct from God via JS. The bible is at best unreliable, and there is the issue of the great apostasy, that as far as Catholics are concerned never happened. It is this contensious notion that Joseph Smith restored the truth, but now we find that there is this woolly idea that well that might have been true then but not now. In which case, how can the LDS claim that what they are teaching their investigators is true, when it needn’t be accepted as such now. Do you see the dilemma?
 
Many of the quotes detailing the location of the hill Cumorah were taken from talks given in General Conference. If Mormons now dismiss those pronouncements as mere opinion, then why would any LDS ever bother to attend General Conference? Why would they ever want to bother listening to what their prophets and apostles say? It’s all just some guy’s personal opinion.

No wonder the LDS Church is hemoraging members.
 
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