LDS & Catholic Comparison

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Hi Rebecca, that is a really good question. The Protestant Bible is the one that does not contain the apocrypha, a known book to have error, even by the Catholic Church admission. The Bible, as inspired, came from both God and man; man working under the direct inspiriation of God. One must be careful in this age; some translations are blasphemas, but if one sticks with the 1611 KJV, NKJV, NAS, ESV, and old NIV’s, they should be okay.

You see a Bible that contains known error is not from God is it?
DerekD, I really don’t care what Bible you read. 🙂 As long as you are reading it. It seems rather legalistic to go down the path you’re traveling. 🙂

To your ideas of Biblical error, you are in agreement with Mormons on this one. They just take the idea further.
 
The Protestant Bible is the one that does not contain the apocrypha,
True, Protestants removed it in the 16th century.
a known book to have error, even by the Catholic Church admission.
Which errors has the Catholic Church admitted to being in the apocrypha?
The Bible, as inspired, came from both God and man; man working under the direct inspiriation of God.
The Protestant canon came from men in the 16th century while the Catholic canon came from men in the 4th century. Mormons have adopted the protestant canon.
One must be careful in this age; some translations are blasphemas, but if one sticks with the 1611 KJV, NKJV, NAS, ESV, and old NIV’s, they should be okay.
You see a Bible that contains known error is not from God is it?
Are you suggesting only Bibles written in English are from God?
 
Hi Rebecca, that is a really good question. The Protestant Bible is the one that does not contain the apocrypha, a known book to have error, even by the Catholic Church admission. The Bible, as inspired, came from both God and man; man working under the direct inspiriation of God. One must be careful in this age; some translations are blasphemas, but if one sticks with the 1611 KJV, NKJV, NAS, ESV, and old NIV’s, they should be okay.

You see a Bible that contains known error is not from God is it?
DerekD:

How did you arrive at your conclusion that the 1611 KJV, NKJV, NAS, ESV, and old NIV’s are okay? The KJV and NIV have many flaws. The ESV (which I use often) and the NAS are not without error either.

I don’t want to derail this Thread, but I don’t agree with your conclusions–and I am Protestant.

The 1611 KJV contained 80 books, including the Catholic Apocrypha. The Protestant Reformers removed the Apocrypha, and I do not agree with their decision.

Anna
 
Exactly; both religions are based on legalism and both will be judged by the law of legalism, just as the Pharisees and their followers.
I think you would have to define/explain legalism so we can understand if it is truely unique to Catholicism and Mormonism, and not contained in protestantism.
 
The Protestant Bible is the one that does not contain the apocrypha, a known book to have error, even by the Catholic Church admission.
Please provide a reference for this. Unsubstantiated claims carry no weight.

By the way, you realize that the Apocrypha is more than one book right?
 
Please provide a reference for this. Unsubstantiated claims carry no weight.

By the way, you realize that the Apocrypha is more than one book right?
I noticed that too, and thought surely must be an error in DerekD’s wording. I do hope he knows better.

Anna
 
Anna Scott have you ever been a Mormon? You say you are not a hater, nonetheless how is it that you are so knowledgeable about what I supposedly believe?
 
MrParker, you are correct; our misinformed Catholic is buying into Vat II, but Vat I clearly shows that those apart from the Catholic faith are anathem, damned. Comfirmed by several councils; most notable is the Council of Trent, which Vat II has confirmed, but like all evolving doctrines of men, the term is now “seperated brethern”, which is far different in substance and meaning then Trents pronouncement to the damned.

This is trying to have it both ways, we confirm Trent, but we deny the parts we do not like. Vat II is the caferteria Catholic at the state level as I see it and why many Catholics that reject Vat II and deny that the current and past Popes are legit, they are actually called anti-Popes. This is long and complicated, as much of their teachings are and I suppose the LDS teachings are no different in complexity; this happens when legalism is mixed with grace through faith in God.
There is a difference DerekD between those who actually are heretical, and those who do not know full Catholic teaching through no fault of their own. The people at the time of the Council of Trent are the former. Protestants today are the latter.

It has always been Church teaching that a person cannot be judged for something they don’t know. This teaching is also clearly given in the New Testament (St. John).
 
Xavierlives:

Actually, I am saying that we have the religious freedom to believe or state that another religion is not Christian, according to our understanding of Christianity.

Subsequently, the religion we believe is not Christian, has the religious freedom to claim that they are Christian. It is really an argument that goes nowhere—like most arguments with LDS Members.

Dianaiad complained about participating in joint charity projects with Catholics and still being relegated to a “back of the bus” status. I told her that participating in joint charity projects with Catholics, or any other Christians, should not be done with the expectation that they will acquiesce to her beliefs.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I’ve been trying to keep up with the entire thread and it seemed a bit off from what you were discussing.
 
There is a difference DerekD between those who actually are heretical, and those who do not know full Catholic teaching through no fault of their own. The people at the time of the Council of Trent are the former. Protestants today are the latter.

It has always been Church teaching that a person cannot be judged for something they don’t know. This teaching is also clearly given in the New Testament (St. John).
But Mormons are the Latter Day Saints.

Ok, jokes aside. I want to understand what you are trying to say here. Protestants of the 16th century are heretics because they knew Catholic doctrine, so they are accountable for their shedding of the doctrine. Protestants of the 21st century are not accountable to Catholic doctrine because they don’t know any better?
 
Well, I guess that ends our discussion then. If you acquiesce to my right to say you aren’t a Christian then all this can do is turn into a kindergarten debate session… You, “I am,” Me, “Are not,” You, “Am too.”

.

These sound like exciting rules. Did you make them up? I’m going to apply them to your last arguement. Just so I don’t “violate” your rules: Brahmabandhab Upadhyay.

Huh? Did I call you stupid? I think the most harsh thing I called called you was lazy. You obviously aren’t interested in looking for the warrant in my claim. Debaters are notorious for this assertion. “You don’t have a warrant. I win!” Only problem is, only the judge needs to hear it. The fact that you missed it and don’t want to find it is not my problem.
Yes, actually, it is your problem, since I went over every post you wrote pertaining to this topic, and the only thing I saw was your claim that there was one. I have a suspicion about what you think that warrent is, but since that is based upon something that I don’t agree with, it’s begging the question. Please tell me I’m wrong. Tell me what you think that warrent is.

After all, if your ‘warrent’ is simply another question that needs to be agreed on between us, it’s not a warrent.
I think I’ve got this one… I explained to you how I set you up. You said I had a non sequitur, but my “so called non sequitur” really answered your fallacy. I explained the whole thing. I explained the irony. And you think you won.
As I said…perhaps I need little words. I still don’t get it and don’t mind admitting it. If you believe that only the ‘judge’ needs to understand what’s going on, would you tell me who the judge of this issue is supposed to be? Oh, and if the judges of this debate are the readers of it, perhaps one of them could kindly explain to me what the ‘warrent’ is here?

I really would like to know.
 
I’ve run across another Mormon Church. I understand there are the fundanmentals [who apparently are the polygamists (I always loved the spelling of this BTW–Poly-Gamist, one who plays many games), who refused to give up their marrying of many wives] and some Mormons in Missouri.

I’ve got a couple of question for the LDS and the Catholic Forumites:
  1. Can the Prophet just reverse course on any edict and there is not a nature contradiction?;
They haven’t yet…at least not on core doctrine. They have on POLICY, but policy is, by the very nature of it, subject to change. One of the reasons we DO have prophets is to keep a line of specific communication open so that God can tell us what we need to hear according to where we are at the time. That’s why there were prophets after Christ died, after all.
  1. Can the Pope just reverse course on any edict and there is not a nature contradiction?
  2. As far as I can tell, Joseph Smith said Zion was supposed to be in Missouri, but the LDS moved it to Salt Lake City?
We were kicked out, son. Remember, the governor of Missouri issued an ‘extermination order’ that made it legal to kill any Mormon in the state after a certain date…an order that wasn’t rescinded until 1976. That doesn’t make us ‘false,’ by the way, any more than Judaism became “false” because the Jews were cast out of Israel–many times before Christ came.
  1. Rome is the city of the Vatican, was there any significance to the city (other than the Roman Empire)?
  2. Hypothetical: Do you think the LDS faith would again accept polygamy if legalized in the US (or do they recognize it where is legal)?
Probably not. There were more reasons, I think, than the political that this practice was stopped.
  1. Has the Catholic Church ever recognized polygamy? I can’t seem to find any reference of any acceptance, but the volume of text is wide.
One can still be Catholic and polygamist in some nations…I THINK. I’m not certain, and will bow to the greater expertise of the Catholics on this forum to correct me if I am wrong.
 
Whoa! I think this answers a question I had ions ago, and a missionary couldn’t answer. It goes something like this (and this is true to my life): I drink coffee. I drink lots of coffee. several years ago the Holy Spirit led me to refrain from coffee during Lent (no, I am not Catholic, but I really like Lent). Can the Holy Spirit lead you to follow a practice of another faith (as innocent as Lent is or would this be blasphemy)? Part 2, could the Holy Spirit reveal to you, a mormon, that coffee is okay to drink?
Yes, as a matter of fact. If it is for your health’s sake, one can do just that. My cousin was actually told by her doctor to drink a cup of coffee every morning to prevent migraines, as it was less expensive, and easier on her constitution, to do that than take a pill. It worked very well until she got other health issues under control and she didn’t need it for that.

The doctor who prescribed the coffee was also her stake president.
Are you saying God will wait on people?
Yes…that IS what ‘free will’ is all about.
Is he waiting on world acceptance of homosexuality and then the Prophet is going to accept them? This opens so many can of worms, surely you don’t mean it as it sounds.
I doubt it very much. Homosexuality has been around for a very, very long time. WE do not condemn homosexuality as evil in and of itself; it is a sin only when practiced, because it must be practiced outside the bonds of marriage. And yes, I am aware of the can of worms that opens.
I think the problem most people have with the African Priesthood issue is the scriptures show consistancy. Furthermore, the concept of God reversing course is primarily limited to instances of mercy not social cowering. In fact, the Bible is pretty emphatic about social “problems” and God takes a stand and is unwavering.
Then why doesn’t the bible (or rather, the men who wrote it) uncompromisingly take a stand against slavery?

Because, m’friend, it does not.
 
Anna Scott have you ever been a Mormon? You say you are not a hater, nonetheless how is it that you are so knowledgeable about what I supposedly believe?
First, knowledge of your beliefs does not make anyone a “hater.” Pointing out the many contradictions and fallacies of Mormonism does not make anyone a “hater” either.

If you do not accept Catholicism, does that make you a “hater?”

I was a member of the Mormon Church for a short time. Once, I discovered what the LDS truly believe, I left the church. So, I do have knowledge of how Mormonism is presented during missionary lessons to potential converts, and what Mormonism really is. A Mormon Bishop was a neighbor and family friend. I had the lessons in the Bishop’s home with 2 missionaries.

I had a very traumatic experience with the LDS Church. However, I have forgiven the hurt and deception and the harassment that ensued, when I left the Church.

Anna
 
Xavierlives:

Actually, I am saying that we have the religious freedom to believe or state that another religion is not Christian, according to our understanding of Christianity.

Subsequently, the religion we believe is not Christian, has the religious freedom to claim that they are Christian. It is really an argument that goes nowhere—like most arguments with LDS Members.

Dianaiad complained about participating in joint charity projects with Catholics and still being relegated to a “back of the bus” status. I told her that participating in joint charity projects with Catholics, or any other Christians, should not be done with the expectation that they will acquiesce to her beliefs.

IOW, Catholics do not have to change their opinion of Mormon doctrine and beliefs, just because Mormons participate in a joint charity project. I would expect that to be the same for any religion.

If I worked on a charity project with Catholics, I would not expect them to change their views of Protestantism.

Anna
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I’ve been trying to keep up with the entire thread and it seemed a bit off from what you were discussing.
Understandable, since this was a “re-post” from earlier in the Thread. 😉

Anna
 
That’s just my point. I keep hearing that coffee is a good health choice, especially for people like me who have asthma. I don’t add sugar or milk so, it is calorie and it keeps me warm. Seems like the perfect beverage.
Nor would the LDS church, if this is what IS the ‘perfect beverage’ and treatment for you, insist that you not use it. Just as my grandmother, while she was nursing her children, was told to drink a cup of beer or a glass of wine every other day.
I think you were thinking of Leviticus, but I mentioned it more as extreme to point out that your argument doesn’t really make sense. As I see it, your argument was that society wasn’t ready for blacks to be in the priesthood, hence, God had to wait until man was ready. We can take this to a more Biblical extreme if you like. Society has accepted women as equals. Are their any women are the governing body of LDS? Has there been a Prophetess?
Prophetesses? As in…women who have recieved visions or revelation? Sure. The bible mentions a few. But are there women who hold the priesthood? Nope. They don’t NEED it in order to govern, lead or anything else. Men do. It is intrinsic in women, not so much in men. They need a…software upgrade…let’s put it that way. And yes there are women who are in the 'governing body of the LDS." The general Relief society president is female, as is the general MIA president and the Primary President, and those three positions pretty much dictate how our youth are educated, and how our welfare system (the best and most efficient in the world, according to most sources). I wouldn’t call those positions unimportant, myself.
Ok. This is nice but what exactly are you answering here? I suggest you read Malachi.
oops, this is too far back in the queue for me to respond to…
 
Then Mormonism has changed from when I was part of it.

I was taught about “Heavenly Mother”
We are taught that there IS a 'Heavenly Mother." I think what Court is saying is that we do not worship her in any way. Those who advocate for that are excommunicated very, very fast. The theory is that since God the Father’s Name is used negatively so often, and taken in vain so often, and is mocked, derided and debated about, that God doesn’t want her subjected to that. So she isn’t…and we don’t want to put her in a position where she CAN be.

She doesn’t appear in scripture, she doesn’t appear in any scripture that WE accept as such; it is a logical extension of what our own beliefs say about eternal marriage and how He created us.
I was taught about how those who keep their covenants would become gods and goddesses and populate our own worlds (“As God once was, we are. As God is, we may become” Lorenzo Snow I believe…check the exact quote if you will)
I beg to differ. Universe? Perhaps, but ‘worlds’ connotes a position where you would be in charge of worlds in THIS universe–and this entire universe belongs to God. We don’t get any of it.
I was never taught to pray to intersessors. Only pray to God the Father in the name of His Son Jesus Christ
That may be what Court is thinking about. Jesus Christ IS the great Intercessor.
I was taught that God the father was once indeed a human was we are and lived on another world similar to ours…
And so, by the way, does every trinitarian and modalist…after all, isn’t Jesus God? Was He not fully human, born to a mortal woman, living out his life as a man on an earth? Did He not die a very mortal death?
It’s feasible that Mormonism has altered its doctrines since I have left. I am not up on what they believe now and what they are now teaching their membership
 
We are taught that there IS a 'Heavenly Mother." I think what Court is saying is that we do not worship her in any way. Those who advocate for that are excommunicated very, very fast. The theory is that since God the Father’s Name is used negatively so often, and taken in vain so often, and is mocked, derided and debated about, that God doesn’t want her subjected to that. So she isn’t…and we don’t want to put her in a position where she CAN be.

She doesn’t appear in scripture, she doesn’t appear in any scripture that WE accept as such; it is a logical extension of what our own beliefs say about eternal marriage and how He created us.

I beg to differ. Universe? Perhaps, but ‘worlds’ connotes a position where you would be in charge of worlds in THIS universe–and this entire universe belongs to God. We don’t get any of it.

That may be what Court is thinking about. Jesus Christ IS the great Intercessor.

And so, by the way, does every trinitarian and modalist…after all, isn’t Jesus God? Was He not fully human, born to a mortal woman, living out his life as a man on an earth? Did He not die a very mortal death?
The part that I bolded is all I want to discuss

No Trinitarian understands that the FATHER was once human. Only Jesus took on flesh. Only Jesus was and is man.
 
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