LDS & Catholic Comparison

[mrparker]

Feel free to tag on “according to my faith” to all that i say, as i believe all men have a right to their own ways of how what and where to worship, unmolested, and i respect your ability to disagree with what i will explain below, and i thank you for the opportunity to share.

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

I’m still wondering how Jesus could keep the eleven (none of them is lost) that were chosen to follow him while in the world but could not do so any longer while out the world?

The apostles he chose, were never “lost” to him, and never strayed from the way. But the apostles were killed, and a church was organized by the people.

So after he left, the church was all up to the man’s agency?

After man used his agency to kill all of Christ’s chosen ones, then yes.

What about Lazarus, being 4 days dead stinking rotten, did he have a choice when Jesus cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Who knows? Maybe in some way? Try not to lean unto your own understanding in all things. Our ways are not the Lord’s ways.

How am I to trust this Mormon’s belief that after Jesus left this earth that He couldn’t hold His church from apostatizing?

Similarly, how could He not keep his “children of israel” from apostatizing? - kind of explained above, but regarding man’s agency.

it is only “His Church” as far as it continues to follow His teachings and doctrine. I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a restoration of the same gospel that he taught to his apostles, and that his apostles taught [being led by Christ]. And i believe it was necessary, because the apostles died, and the people strayed.

 

[Rocket_Man]

After man used his agency to kill all of Christ’s chosen ones, then yes.

"

Doesn’t the scripture say?

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

 

[mrparker]

"

Doesn’t the scripture say?

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I would like to touch on this, with more helpful information as soon as I can. I must get to bed now, but please don’t let me forget, in the next few days. Thanks.

 

[why_me]

Here’s a question…for everybody. What ARE we going to be? What are we going to DO with eternity?

It is, after all, a very long time.

This is an interesting question for catholics to answer. I remember that I got in trouble with some of them on this forum when I claimed that heaven will be a place of work. Yet, it was saint therese, the little flower, who revolutionized the catholic conception of heaven when she claimed: I will spend my heaven doing good on earth! Before this, heaven was looked upon as a place of repose and relaxation. But, she changed that idea to the opposite. Along with saint therese, I can only hope to spend my heaven doing good on earth also.

You should read her book: the story of a soul. It is beautiful and maybe should look into her little way. This also revolutionized catholic thinking.

littleflower.org/learn/littleflower.asp

 

[Xavierlives]

We were kicked out, son. Remember, the governor of Missouri issued an ‘extermination order’ that made it legal to kill any Mormon in the state after a certain date…an order that wasn’t rescinded until 1976. That doesn’t make us ‘false,’ by the way, any more than Judaism became “false” because the Jews were cast out of Israel–many times before Christ came.

Things are peaceful now, why doesn’t the Church move?

 

[Xavierlives]

Bad analogy. Try…Christianity is represented by the color wheel. Catholics are blue. Protestants are yellow…they mix with each other in various shades of green, but WE…are red. We all still belong to the color wheel.

Here’s what I am willing to do. Call a truce. Although I find the arument entertaining, I need to remember that you are not the judge. I have laid out my case, I have given cause for you to not be considered Christian and instead Mormon, and I have defended your rebuttals.

All that is left is judgment. See you there, we’ll talk more then.

 

[Xavierlives]

Here’s a question…for everybody. What ARE we going to be? What are we going to DO with eternity?

It is, after all, a very long time.

Well my appointment calendar has me penciled in for
Event: “Worship God”
Duration:“Eternity”

If that were true, we wouldn’t have needed any of the apostles and prophets who wrote the books and letters of the New Testament.

Don’t get me wrong, man is not useless. Man does serve God. I believe prophets exist even today, just not in the capacity that you want them to be in, saying contractictory statements, giving contradictory doctrine, offering contradictory theology.

…and how was I supposed to help you with THIS one, Xavier? I mean, do we REALLY have 'everything that you have plus a little bit more?" That’s IT? That’s a little like saying that the Christians who only had a gospel or two were Christians, but that the ones who ALSO had the rest of the gospels plus the letters are no longer Christians, but something else…even though the addition of the letters (especially the Pauline letters) made a pretty big impact on the faith…even changed it a bit…

Maybe I should have little asides to notate my jokes. {this is a joke for Diana}

 

[why_me]

Well my appointment calendar has me penciled in for
Event: “Worship God”
Duration:“Eternity”

That may be. But our good saint therese is spending her heaven not just worshipping god but she is spending her heaven doing good on earth. Just like other saints. I would prefer to be with them in between worshipping.

 

[Marie5890]

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

I’m still wondering how Jesus could keep the eleven (none of them is lost) that were chosen to follow him while in the world but could not do so any longer while out the world?

So after he left, the church was all up to the man’s agency?

What about Lazarus, being 4 days dead stinking rotten, did he have a choice when Jesus cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

How am I to trust this Mormon’s belief that after Jesus left this earth that He couldn’t hold His church from apostatizing?

Insightful observation and question.

 

[DerekD]

I’ve heard that one…doesn’t explain the thirty pieces of silver, where in one account Judas threw them in the Temple courtyard, and in the other it says that Judas used the money to buy the plot of land upon which he died. Reconciling these takes an incredible amount of assuming…and that’s never a good idea.

As for me, I don’t have the problem of HAVING to reconcile these verses. Nor do I have to worry about Moses not ‘getting’ that bats aren’t birds, and that hares (or rabbits) don’t chew their cuds. The bible is scripture…but not everything in it is inerrent, just the important stuff.

“he aquired a field for the price of his wickedness” is by no means saying Judas went out and bought the field; you are not seeing the message here at all. The money he gave back for betraying Jesus was used to buy a field to which Judas would end up in; in that sense he bought a field.

 

[dianaiad]

Kittens are the “literal” offspring of their parents without any “contribution” of spirit.

Begging the question there, Z. Mormons think kittens have spirits. sorry–therefore your argument doesn’t work.

It’s the “manufacture” by combing of DNA that makes one “literal” offspring of parents. No mutual contribution of material to the “child” from each of the the respective heavenly parents then no “literal” offspring. Heavenly Father and Mother seem to be making matroyshkas, take an “intelligence” give it a “spirit body” then send it along for a mortal body then if they do well they get a glorified body.

 

[dianaiad]

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

I’m still wondering how Jesus could keep the eleven (none of them is lost) that were chosen to follow him while in the world but could not do so any longer while out the world?

They all died, RM.

"So after he left, the church was all up to the man’s agency?

No, other apostles and prophets were called…witness Mattias and Paul. They were apostles and prophets (Paul most obviously that). The problem happened later.

"What about Lazarus, being 4 days dead stinking rotten, did he have a choice when Jesus cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

How am I to trust this Mormon’s belief that after Jesus left this earth that He couldn’t hold His church from apostatizing?

He could…but He did not…and the only way He COULD have done so is by abrogatting the free will of all. Besides, how do you know that Lazaras didn’t have a choice?

 

[Xavierlives]

… changing of my words …

First, I must kindly ask that you not “edit” my quotes. Although it might make it easier for you change my words to fit your beliefs, my words are mine. Quote me all you want, but do not change my words. Someone might come along and think your added text is my message, and it is not.

 

[dianaiad]

Things are peaceful now, why doesn’t the Church move?

why should we?

Or rather, we have. We are, after all, found all over the world. Missourri may be nice and all…and there is an old Mormon myth that someday we may all half to pack up and walk back there. Personally? I’m too old and my knees are gone. I’ll do what we actually SUPPOSED to do, and make Zion where I am.

 

[dianaiad]

Here’s what I am willing to do. Call a truce. Although I find the arument entertaining, I need to remember that you are not the judge. I have laid out my case, I have given cause for you to not be considered Christian and instead Mormon, and I have defended your rebuttals.

All that is left is judgment. See you there, we’ll talk more then.

Well, at the judgment neither one of us is going to be worried about whether you dare call me a Christian. We will both be considerably more concerned about being Christ’s.

 

[dianaiad]

Well my appointment calendar has me penciled in for
Event: “Worship God”
Duration:“Eternity”

That’s nice.

How?

Don’t get me wrong, man is not useless. Man does serve God. I believe prophets exist even today, just not in the capacity that you want them to be in, saying contractictory statements, giving contradictory doctrine, offering contradictory theology.

Maybe I should have little asides to notate my jokes. {this is a joke for Diana}

Perhaps you should. I am humor impaired in a forum where too many jokes are either at my expense or not intended to BE jokes–so when I react with laughter, I insult someone.

 

[dianaiad]

“he aquired a field for the price of his wickedness” is by no means saying Judas went out and bought the field; you are not seeing the message here at all. The money he gave back for betraying Jesus was used to buy a field to which Judas would end up in; in that sense he bought a field.

But the verse sais that HE aquired it. (bought it) But he didn’t HAVE the money to buy it with. One verse says he hanged, the other verse says he died in quite a different manner.

I think that both stories read very much like a book I have, called “the history of the murderers of Joseph Smith” (or some title like that) In which are stories, (fictions all…except for the one mob member who died as a result a wound he took from Joseph Smith’s gun, they all seem to have lived long, productive and successful lives) that tell of miserable, humiliating lives and horrific deaths for each of the men in the mob–some of them hilariously contradictory.

I keep it to remind me that people are people, and that being a Mormon does’t inoculate one against wishful thinking…In other words, perhaps Judas hanged himself. Perhaps he killed himself some other way. Perhaps he DID go out in a grand gesture of remorse (makes me think better of the man if he did) or maybe he too lived a long healthy life. (shrug) We’ll find out, and Judas’ fate is NOT a matter to bother MY salvation–or yours.

 

[dianaiad]

Yep.

We believe all things were created spiritually before they were created physically. Therefore kittens have spirits. Dogs do. Trees do. ROCKS do…in that they have that ‘double template,’ of sorts. And yes, we beleive that there is an after life for them. What that means…I don’t exactly know.

But honestly…do you really think that God would provide us this marvelous place, this world…full of life and glory to His workmanship—and we will have NONE of that with Him?

Why did He bother?

Are you telling me that none of the ex-Mormons on this list have made fun of us over this one?

 

[Rocket_Man]

They died

I didn’t ask what happened to the eleven, we know that they died. My question was if Jesus had kept the eleven while here on earth, why couldn’t He keep the eleven and all those chosen afterwards till this day?

 

[Xavierlives]

You have misinterpreted my analogy/parable (as many also do when interpreting the meaning of Christ’s teachings)

But the 3rd letter removed was not a representation of the Book of Mormon, but of the precious parts of the Bible that i believe are missing because of man’s flaws, not God’s flaws, for He has none.

Oh, don’t get me wrong. I understand you believe the Bible has left a vacuum and that this vacuum was created through the machinations of mankind. The problem with this theory is, every scrap of paper in which the Bible is printed could be destroyed tomorrow. I need only a pen and a paper to write down:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Of course we know the Bible will never be destroyed so the prince of this world would like me to believe that God’s message is incomplete. That there are holes in the message the size of Utah. The problem with that is, Jesus was the Message and he is made complete.

And we may disagree in the reasoning that God has allowed “someone” to remove parts of his “letters” to us. God did not write the Bible Himself, but inspired the authors of the books to write it.

And just so we are perfectly clear, are you saying that the words uttered from Jesus’s mouth, the red-letter text so to speak, is nothing more than inspired?

God at no time, forces any man to do anything, but gives us our agency. For if he did, he would cease to be God, having violated His own Laws.

Err…I’m not sure this is referencing.

Although one may(and has already) said that this doesnt make sense because then our salvation depends upon and is lost because of those who caused the parts of the Bible to be lost or removed. This would be true, if the only place to lean upon for belief and knowledge regarding salvation and God was the Bible. However, as to my faith, I believe God has, does, and will always reveal His Truth to his people through and by the mouth of His prophets. If you do not share the belief regarding prophets, there is no way you can agree with me regarding the Bible…thus resulting in you having a different faith.

No doubt we have a different faith. If your salvation relies on the words of the prophets than you are missing some key points of the “intact” Bible.

The Old Testament points to Jesus.
The New Testament points to Jesus.
The Book of Mormon points to Jesus.

All of my original posting about this is about John 5:31-39.

According to Jewish law, one could not bear witness of himself. Jesus is showing that John the Baptist was an earthly witness, that God’s was a witness, and that the scripture was a witness.

I am saying, the Old Testament is a witness to Jesus. The Book of Mormon might point to Jesus but nothing is gained from this Testament and moreover there is no heavenly witness to this testimony. Belief is not enough. James 2:19 says:
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Show me in the Bible where it testifies to the Book of Mormon. That’s all I ask.

You just repeated what i said to you, but backwards…i think you’re the one spinning in circles here

Err… thats the whole point. You are the one who made the argument. I am showing the circular nature.

I will try (and may fail again) to clarify:
If the standard by which you use to try and prove that LDS Faith is false, AND are right, you prove your own faith false. HOWEVER, your methods and standards in attempt to prove the LDS Faith false, are false, therefore, feel free to hang on to your faith and hope of your own.

Again, your argument is is circular. But I’ll answer this way for clarity I am only using the Bible. I can show something to be false by shining the light on it.

Bless you my brother. Nothing but love.

And to you. I don’t want you to ever feel that I am not coming to you with love and compassion. I might get heated in my postings, but nothing is without the full passion of Christ’s message. My desire is that you will truly ponder these things. Read the scripture. Pray.