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mrparker
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Mormons don’t think that they know more than the apostles did. But they do think that the Bible does not contain everything that the apostles knew. One can allude such a thought from the scripture: Mark 4:11
That Christ’s apostles are given the knowlege of the mysteries of God, but to the rest they are given in parables so that those who have the spirit of Christ with them will understand, and those who do not, will not understand.
I also don’t understand why or how you give Joseph Smith and ParkerD so much credit as to making these things up. If Mormonism was made up on the whim like many claim, that he made it up as he went along, the guy is beyond any genius that has ever existed on the face of this earth.
But rather, since Mormons claim revelation, its pretty easy to understand how their beliefs differ from a church of beliefs that were passed down by man from generation to generation translated time and time again through various languages. Ever played the telephone game? Ever tried to translate a page of literature from one language that contains idioms and cultural differences of expressions into another language and back again?
It is similar in the Bible the way the Jews held to and knew the old testament inside and out, yet when Christ came they thought he was teaching “new” doctrine and they disregarded what he taught as false and blasphemous. They even accused the apostles of heresy. (Acts 24:14).
And the same apostle (Paul) said in Galations 1:11-12
" 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
"
This is why LDS believe that there was a need of a “Restoration” of the same gospel that was originially established by Christ and taught to his apostles. LDS believe that things changed and, and were removed, and altered during translations etc over the just under 2000 years Catholicism has been around.
And that Restoration, including the doctrine of Celestial Marriage and and being sealed to a spouse for eternity, to eternally progress, was brought about by revelation. The same method claimed by the apostles of Christs church in his day after he was crucified. If you don’t believe that, you are free to make that choice. We will all discover the truth one day
Neither do Mormons know exactly and perfectly the details of Eternal Life. What I DO know is though, is just a thought, that in this life, the time i am happiest, is when i am progressing, doing something with my family, relationships with loved ones are progressing, or skills at work, or school, when i notice improvements and progress in my self, it is a source of happiness, incomparable to when i progress spiritually. That is why it makes sense to me that Eternal happiness and exaltation could be so utterly and incomprehensibly enjoyable progressing for eternity, and helping others progress as well. If that blows your mind as absurd, or hard to believe, the same way it is hard for me to believe the explanation of the beatific vision, i do not impose my thoughts upon you, but offer them as a subject of contemplation.
And if the Mormons ARE right, and Catholics go where the Mormons believe they will go, then the Catholics will be able to sing praises to and worship Christ for the rest of eternity, in a state that is incomprehensibly greater, more beautiful, and more “euphoric”(dont know if thats the right word) than this life and will not have to worry about their earthly relationships extending beyond the grave, while the Mormons (who were faithful and valiant in their belief) will get to do their thing, progressing eternally living in God’s presence becoming perfected beings inheriting all that God has being joint heirs with Christ (who is a God as well)
take it or leave it…Christ lives
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mrparker
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This is true. It’s kinda like the universe, it is hard to comprehend that there is no end to it. Do we share that belief? Because naturally having been born and looking towards a death, we understand a beginning and an end. And we understand rooms there is a beginning to a room, and a back to the room. But where there is a wall, there is something on the other side of that wall. So really, we have two contradicting instincts. However i agree with what Catholics seem to believe, that the life after this there is no time. It is eternal.
And what you say about being fixed, its hard to understand. But God is fixed in his state of All knowing all powerful Glory. He doesnt grow and learn and get brighter or anything like that. And so all will be fixed in an eternal glory (I believe). Those who are righteous, and are “exalted” will become like God, perfected and fixed in eternal perfection, then able to create others as He created us. Although it is referred to as eternal progression, the exalted beings (as they will be a pair - husband and wife) will be fixed in the eternal perfected state but will be progressing in creating other souls giving them the same opportunities as we had to learn and exercise our agency and will to decide our own eternal fate.
So really, we agree, on the fixed thing, but disagree on the “how we will be fixed” thing. Which is quite alright. As i can understand what you believe and how you could believe it.
I can appreciate your logic here. sort of the, ‘no two things can occupy the same space’ kinda thing. However, LDS logic kind of breaks your system of logic in that what you just rationalized is based upon a belief that nothing can be revealed to us from heaven, and so we either know ( by basing it on this life ) or we dont ( because we’re becoming a butterfly). LDS logic is different with the addition of the principle or concept of learning by revelation. In other words, if you could talk to a caterpillar and show to it images of the butterfly it was going to become, and tell him what plants he needed to eat most of and where to create his cocoon in order to secure that he become the absolute most beautiful butterfly that he could. He would then be able to understand what is to come, and the conditions that must be met in order to become it.
Therefore, if there is no revelation, you are dead on the money.
if there is revelation, not so much on the money.
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why_me
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Really, the lds have admitted this to you: that they are into porn? How interesting. And you don’t know any catholics who are into porn? Porn is very addictive and a multbillion dollar business. I am sure that there must be a catholic or two into porn. Unless, of course, the porn addicts are only protestants, mormons, muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses etc.
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why_me
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Actually this is not entirely true. There is more to heaven than what you are claiming and the mormons are probably not to far off the mark. As for catholics, heaven will be a place for work. Let take saint therese who is at this moment spending her heaven doíng good on earth. This doing good on earth does take work. It is not a job for just prayer and contemplation. In fact, most catholic saints are attempting to spend their heaven doing good on earth. They are action saints.
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why_me
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Celestial marriage is actually quite a nice idea. It certainly would be wonderful to be eternally married to the one that one is married to. I kinda like the idea. And together throughout eternity, they can grow together and eternally progress as a unit. Wonderful.
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TheosisM
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Oh please, show me where dogmatically the Catholic Church has said that there is more to Heaven that what I stated. As I said, the Mormon understanding of Heaven is incompatible with the Catholic understanding of Heaven, since both are also tied to our understandings of what it means to be “partakers of the divine nature”. Things like eternal increase (spirit children), eternal marriage, having worlds for these spirit children, etc. are all incompatible with Catholicism.
If you actually read the post you quoted, you would see that I mentioned that the Heavenly saints also pray for the earthly saints.
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TheosisM
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Hmm, this reminds me of a post of yours about all those racist Catholics you know/knew, and how none of the Mormons you know/knew were racist.
off topic
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grandfather
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In the next life my parents will still be my parents and my children will be my children. My wife and I cooperated with God and created them. But we won’t be creating any more of them. That happens here, not hereafter.
We remain who we are. We love one another eternally, but Mormons and Muslims think that heaven means a lot of sexual activity, 72 virgins to maximize the pleasure of their martyrs, or lots of wives.
This comes from their founders who were unable to control themselves in that area and thought if heaven is so great that their sexual delight will be even better there. People go to pretty crazy extremes to defend their religion. I saw an imam interviewed, justify not only the action of Mohamed marrying and having relations with a young girl, but said that Islam sees females at the age of nine or ten as mature enough to be marriagable, so it is permissible for others as well. He really believed this.
People of all religions will do evil things that their relgions condemn as moral failure. When you try to justify evil behavior by using religion you have a major breakdown.
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mrparker
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Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Because of the culture of the world, and our “natural man” instincts, we tend to associate sex with just pleasure, selfish desires and lusts. However this is just what satan has done to sex and what sex really is. He has twisted it, perverted it, exploited it, when it is actually a very sacred God given procreating power given to all mankind worthy and unworthy. So naturally i can understand why it is easy to accuse and sometimes hard to discern between who is lustful and selfish following the enticements of the devil, and who is actually being commanded of God to raise seed up to him. This is exactly the devil’s plan. He sole purpose is to take that which is true and pure, and twist distort and pervert it so that it is hard to discern between which is true.
I might compare a funny analogy - Xmen when wolverine and mistique are fighting, and mistique transforms into wolverine, mimicing him, so that others cannot distinguish which one to kill. - Likewise, satan tries to do that with everything that is pure and true.
Was Abraham evil?
Genesis 16
Jacob?
Genesis 29:23–30; 30: 4,9
Gideon?
Judges 8:30
Elkanah?
1 Samuel 1:1–2
As taught in the Book of Mormon in Jacob 2
23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
It is by Gods command only (which comes by revelation) where plural marriage is authorized, otherwise it is abominable before the Lord.
“At certain times and for His specific purposes, God, through His prophets, has directed the practice of plural marriage (sometimes called polygamy), which means one man having more than one living wife at the same time. In obedience to direction from God, Latter-day Saints followed this practice for about 50 years during the 1800s but officially ceased the practice of such marriages after the Manifesto was issued by President Woodruff in 1890. Since that time, plural marriage has not been approved by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any member adopting this practice is subject to losing his or her membership in the Church.”
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grandfather
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PaulDupre
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Grandfather,
I’d be honored to buy you a beer sometime.
Paul (also a grandfather - isn’t it wonderful?)
I’d be honored to buy you a beer sometime.
Paul (also a grandfather - isn’t it wonderful?)
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mrparker
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Thank you for your explanation. I had no idea that our beliefs were so polarly differing in the details you just explained. But it seems to me to originate in our differences of our beliefs in the nature of God. I am glad you have found a belief that moves you to do good in this world.
However i must say that, it is not limited to either your logic or my logic, as we are weak and futile in comparison to the knowledge and wisdom of God. In the fact we both believe that by God’s Word was the earth made, our logic cannot explain how that works.
But everyone is entitled to their own belief right
However i must say that, it is not limited to either your logic or my logic, as we are weak and futile in comparison to the knowledge and wisdom of God. In the fact we both believe that by God’s Word was the earth made, our logic cannot explain how that works.
But everyone is entitled to their own belief right
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mrparker
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BTW PaulDupre, I like your quote in your signature.
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amontoya
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mrparker
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Forgot to ask…
Then this leaves me curious as to what you believe regarding the second coming of Christ… if you care to share.
…and do you believe the Bible is perfect in its form?
So am I correct to assume that you do believe that God revealed his gospel and truths to the prophets of the Old Testament to be delivered to His people. And you believe that He continued to do so until finally He came down in the form of Jesus Christ to demonstrate to us what our sins did to Him, and then he was resurrected, and now does not reveal anything futher to us, leaving us to ourselves and our own interpretations of the teachings He left behind for 2000+ years?
Then this leaves me curious as to what you believe regarding the second coming of Christ… if you care to share.
…and do you believe the Bible is perfect in its form?
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TheosisM
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Even this is not completely accurate. Catholics believe that revelation from Heaven continues, and many of our canonized saints were also prophets and prophetesses. Catholic history is rich with visits from many Heavenly beings. Catholics believe that all that was necessary for salvation has already been revealed, hence there is no more “public revelation”. However all people can and do receive private revelations, and God can and does choose to reveal various messages through certain people. Marian apparitions are one major grouping of such events in Catholicism. Any new revelations (which cannot contradict what has already been revealed from apostolic times) are not required for salvation, however they can of course help one on their journey.
I hope this helps.
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PaulDupre
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No. Jesus left us the Church which still endures after 2000 years. The Holy Spirit leads the Church into all truth, as Jesus promised He would (John 14;26; John 16:13). We Catholics have a sure guide to interpreting scripture - the Holy Spirit working through the magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church. This magisterial authority is most accutely demonstrated in the ecumenical councils of the church, wherein the great questions of doctrine and biblical interpretation are authoritatively proclaimed under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
This magisterial authority is reflected in the pages of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which outlines in exhaustive detail what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, and expounds on the scriptures to explain why we believe what we believe.
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Xavierlives
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Just saying, those of us who aren’t secretly married, get at least to be like angels, that’s all.
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Xavierlives
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