LDS - Celestial Marriage

[ParkerD]

If He was only meaning to refer to the Sadducees, He would have said “you” not “they.” He said “they” meaning those people who will be resurrected. He was correcting their false ideas. They were belittling the concept of the resurrection by imagining it to be like this life. The situation described would be awkward and difficult in this present life, but according to Jesus, the situation won’t even exist in the resurrection.

Hi, Amontoya,
I do hope you are having a fine day. You always do, though.

The Sadducees whom Jesus was addressing were talking about other Sadducees, not they themselves personally. It was completely appropriate for Jesus to speak of “they” meaning those particular Sadducees whom the people He was addressing were referring to in their proposed example. He would also have the hope that the Sadducees He was addressing would repent and change and believe He was the Savior, in which case they would no longer be under the identity of becoming only like “an angel.”

 

[ParkerD]

wow. You have ignored entirely the context of the question. Jesus was addressing the question, which was about a woman who was married seven times. The question being, who will she be married to in heaven?

What you have going here is making up out of thin air what is not there to read. No ECF explains this passage in this way because it is utter nonsense.

RebeccaJ,
Your choice of words merely shows that you don’t have the inclination to address the specific text and its specific meaning. They acknowledged an assumption that Christ’s teaching included marriage in heaven. That is just not difficult to see–it is clear to see from the context.

 

[mrparker]

Catholic belief, from the Catechism:

“In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.” Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on *Hebrews *1:1-2:

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.

So my question: What is this something you believe needs to be Revealed that is not found in God’s Perfect Revelation: Jesus Christ?

Gotchya. I will try to justly explain the belief that there was a need for a restoration of the original teachings through revelation.

First of all, we believe that there was an “apostasy” , which means to turn away from, the teachings of Christ and the apostles. Not because God was negligent or just revealed everything through Christ, and then “dropped the ball” but because people became wicked, hardened their hearts, and had evil motives in their hearts. ( This is not an attack at Catholics, just explaining what is believed, as many Catholics think that Mormons are crazy/strange/dangerous, and that’s fine haha). God cannot and will not reveal His gospel if there are no righteous to receive it. Also, it was prophesied in many places that there would be a “famine” in the land of the word of the Lord.

As I give some biblical references, remember that we do not have our belief of the apostasy and the restoration of things BECAUSE of what we have read and interpreted from the Bible, but because it was first revealed to Joseph Smith and continuing prophets that there was a need for a restoration. I just happens that that truth was also recorded by those apostles of Christ’s time.

Amos 8:11-12 reads:
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

This is a prophesy of the ‘famine’ that was from the time Christ’s church apostatized. And so many wandered to and fro to seek the word of the Lord during this extended period of time, attempting reforms, attempting protesting, starting new churches, and many of the early reformers recognized that although they were trying to do something good, they nor anyone on the earth had the God-given authority to do His ordinances.

Acts 20: 29-30 reads:
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Paul is talking to the early church members and he says both, wolves will enter in among [the church] suggesting coming from without to joining the “flock” ) and also, that of those within the church some will arise speaking perverse [distorted from their original] things.

Also 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 reads:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We believe that is the falling away of the authority and truth of the Gospel from the earth. Before Christ is to come again. However Christ will come again in the times of restitution of all things…

Acts 3:19-21 reads
19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Also Ephesians 1:10 reads
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

They could not refer to their own dispensation as the fullness of times while they referred to a future dispensation as the fullness of times. And we believe that it cannot become a fullness with out further “public” revelation through a prophet. The apostles knew this, but the limited amount of recordings of what was actually revealed to them, by way of their writings to the church members and recordings of third party disciples, AND because of various councils which were held where a group of men decided what was inspired or not inspired of a gathered text that had been translated time and time again, many truths have been lost from the Bible.
…on to the next post…

 

[mrparker]

…continued…
We believe that the restitution of all things began with Joseph Smith, who was no more than a great prophet and instrument in God’s hand in restoring the fullness of the Gospel, allowing us to fully enjoy an understanding of the plan of God, the authority to receive and perform His proper ordinances, and to worship Him in Christ’s name.

The important thing to note is that Joseph Smith did not have it in his heart to discover a “new” religion relative to those he was surrounded by but simply wished to know which was correct.

The first something that was revealed to him in the appearance of God the Father and Jesus Christ was that they were two separate beings having a body of flesh and bone. The second something – that none of the religious denominations or churches on the earth were His church, lead and guided according to His will.

And because our differences begin there, it is only logical that of course the many of the rest of our beliefs will differ as well.

So that is my humble explanation as to why Mormons believe there was something missing that needed to be revealed to give us this latter dispensation of the fullness of times. And Christ will come again soon enough.

Separately, the angel Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith and taught him where the original writings of ancient prophets of the Americas compiled by Moroni was buried, which translated is the Book of Mormon today. [Won’t get into this as it us content for another thread]

disclaimer: I understand that most of us here are not on here to explore and convert to another religion, so please take my explanation as an offering of understanding one another. If you have questions and cannot understand something I have written, as I am a man and am full of errors, please ask and I will try to clarify.

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ,
Your choice of words merely shows that you don’t have the inclination to address the specific text and its specific meaning. They acknowledged an assumption that Christ’s teaching included marriage in heaven. That is just not difficult to see–it is clear to see from the context.

ParkerD, you want me to believe these scripture passages say something like this:

I ask, “ParkerD, are your wife and kids going to the store today?”

You respond, “No, you are not going to the store today.”

The question to Jesus was,

"Who will this woman who has had many husbands be married to in heaven?

You think He answered, “You Sadducees won’t be married in heaven.”

Riiiiiight.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Gotchya. I will try to justly explain the belief that there was a need for a restoration of the original teachings through revelation.

Do you care to respond rather than give me your first missionary lesson? geez. Your bishop would be proud.

 

[ParkerD]

The question to Jesus was,

"Who will this woman who has had many husbands be married to in heaven?

You think He answered, “You Sadducees won’t be married in heaven.”

Riiiiiight.

No, He answered, “The people from your example (the ones you referred to when you said ‘there were among us seven brethren’) who had all died and since they had been ‘among you’ while they were living they were clearly Sadducees–won’t be married in heaven, but will be like the angels of God in heaven.” Simple as that.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, He answered, “The people from your example (the ones you referred to when you said ‘there were among us seven brethren’) who had all died and since they had been ‘among you’ while they were living they were clearly Sadducees–won’t be married in heaven, but will be like the angels of God in heaven.” Simple as that.

Please provide the verses where Jesus said this.

 

[mrparker]

Do you care to respond rather than give me your first missionary lesson? geez. Your bishop would be proud.

Haha, hey i though you were looking to understand. If you are, the post i typed will explain it quite clearly.

However if all you were looking for was a few lines as to what the something was that needed to be revealed was not anything that was new or different but the same thing that has been revealed since the time of Adam through the ages, taught time and time again to remind us humans who are quick to forget and turn from the truth, which was also taught by Jesus Christ himself, and is now taught again in these days in the same manner, by the same God, via his Son Jesus Christ to the prophets that He calls.

 

[mrparker]

ParkerD if you don’t mind me attempting to chime in…

Please provide the verses where Jesus said this.

RebeccaJ I think ( and ParkerD tell me if I’m wrong ) what he is saying is this…

Sadducees say: Now there were with us seven brethren (understanding that the seven brothren were among them, suggesting the brethren were sadducees as well)

So when Christ responds saying “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” The word They’ is referring to the subjects of the question who are sadducess and will be as angels and not married in the resurrection.

ParkerD please correct me if i have understood incorrectly

 

[RebeccaJ]

Haha, hey i though you were looking to understand. If you are, the post i typed will explain it quite clearly.

However if all you were looking for was a few lines as to what the something was that needed to be revealed was not anything that was new or different but the same thing that has been revealed since the time of Adam through the ages, taught time and time again to remind us humans who are quick to forget and turn from the truth, which was also taught by Jesus Christ himself, and is now taught again in these days in the same manner, by the same God, via his Son Jesus Christ to the prophets that He calls.

You did not answer, what essential thing did Jesus Christ lack that you believe needs to be revealed?

 

[Techno2000]

No, He answered, “The people from your example (the ones you referred to when you said ‘there were among us seven brethren’) who had all died and since they had been ‘among you’ while they were living they were clearly Sadducees–won’t be married in heaven, but will be like the angels of God in heaven.” Simple as that.

So you are saying that the Sadducees are going to… “get the short end of the stick” and only be allowed to be just an Angel.Whlie the LDS people will get to have spirit sex,breed children, and have their own planet ?

 

[mrparker]

You did not answer, what essential thing did Jesus Christ lack that you believe needs to be revealed?

It’s not Jesus Christ that was lacking. It’s man’s failing ability to record, translate, retranslate, intrepret, and retranslate a few more times, and continue to interpret and “decide” what is inspired manuscripts, what to keep and what to throw away and to pass on beliefs from generation to generation accurately that causes the lacking of truth. Therefore creating a need for the calling of another prophet, to be the mouthpiece for God to reveal to His people the full and pure truth that Christ taught.

But really the Catholics in my opinion have the right idea that Christ did in fact teach all the necessary truths to receive salvation. All I’m saying is we believe that because of the infirmities of man, given enough time any society will apostatize.

Given enough time, the LDS Church according to this same belief, would apostatize as well, fortunately, Christ will come again before this happens.

 

[ParkerD]

So you are saying that the Sadducees are going to… “get the short end of the stick” and only be allowed to be just an Angel. While the LDS people will get to have … their own planet ?

Techno 2000,
Perhaps you didn’t read my original post in response to this particular thread. You would know, I assume if you are a Bible student, that the Sadducees did not accept Christ as their Redeemer and Savior, and in fact did not believe in the resurrection at all. Yet, they were a Jewish sect. They were part of the “crowd” who asked questions of Jesus during His ministry.

Surely you will understand that by rejecting Christ, the Sadducees were rejecting the opportunity for the rebirth of baptism by water and by the Spirit, rejecting the healing power of the Savior’s atonement, and rejecting the idea of being raised from the dead with a glory beyond their comprehension. Why would Christ suggest or promise to them something that the gospel does not promise which would be any implication that those who do not believe in Christ can be exalted or have eternal marriage? He spoke to them “where they were at”–not where they had the potential to change for the better if they would sincerely listen to Him.

Now again, realize that the Sadducees to whom the Savior was speaking, could still make changes in their lives and could follow the Savior. But they provided a “hypothetical” situation for the Savior to teach about, and teach them He did. He taught them that those Sadducees of the “hypothetical” example who had died and thus had done so without accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and Redeemer (since they were “with us” meaning “with Sadducees” or in other words were Sadducees), would be as the angels in the resurrection.

Those who want an eternal marriage, and are willing to live for it, means they are willing to make the kinds of changes in their lives that the gospel involves–becoming a new and better person including a better marriage companion than they ever dreamed of becoming “on their own”. Christ guides in that process, as does the Holy Spirit, if two people place Them into the center of their relationship and are humble. It means such a couple can become “joint heirs” with Jesus Christ, who did indeed create this earth, so yes, those who become joint heirs can organize the materials within the Universe to form a new earth, and can help spirits come to that earth and progress through their own life’s experiences. (But nothing like the short-sighted, ill-conceived misunderstanding of your question.)

Such an opportunity is offered, but not forced onto anyone. The “binding on earth and in heaven” is required–the authority the apostles had, and that authority must really have been granted by God rather than assumed by man.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s not Jesus Christ that was lacking. It’s man’s failing ability to record, translate, retranslate, intrepret, and retranslate a few more times, and continue to interpret and “decide” what is inspired manuscripts, what to keep and what to throw away and to pass on beliefs from generation to generation accurately that causes the lacking of truth. Therefore creating a need for the calling of another prophet, to be the mouthpiece for God to reveal to His people the full and pure truth that Christ taught.

But really the Catholics in my opinion have the right idea that Christ did in fact teach all the necessary truths to receive salvation. All I’m saying is we believe that because of the infirmities of man, given enough time any society will apostatize.

Given enough time, the LDS Church according to this same belief, would apostatize as well, fortunately, Christ will come again before this happens.

I know this is false. Your scriptures teach you that your god will never let your church fail.

This is the promise Jesus gave to His Church, the Church He established on Peter. I have yet to figure out why Mormons do not believe what Jesus taught. Somehow the Holy Spirit can guide and direct mormons, but Catholics, nope, can’t happen. I hate to use the word, but you must understand, the idea is ridiculous.

 

[mrparker]

I know this is false. Your scriptures teach you that your god will never let your church fail.

Elaborate please.

This is the promise Jesus gave to His Church, the Church He established on Peter. I have yet to figure out why Mormons do not believe what Jesus taught. Somehow the Holy Spirit can guide and direct mormons, but Catholics, nope, can’t happen. I hate to use the word, but you must understand, the idea is ridiculous.

It’s really not rediculous . I believe that anyone Catholic or otherwise can be inspired and moved and guided by the Spirit of God. However I do not believe that all have the Gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion to guide and educate pertaining to all things. That I believe comes only by that Gift being confirmed upon one by the proper authority. And i understand we differ on our beliefs on who has authority, which is expected. And keep in mind the Holy Ghost for all members gives them the right to their own “private” revelation as i think Catholics call it, While it is through the power of the Holy Ghost that the prophets and apostles that Christ has called in these latter days are able to receive continued ‘public’ revelation on behalf of the ‘public’ in order to ensure that the doctrine stays true according to the will of the Father. To me and my understanding of it, it is no where near ridiculous. To you, and your beliefs, i imagine it would only seem strange, foreign, and if you stretch it “ridiculous”

And i know Christ told him that “upon this rock” would his church be built, and that it wouldn’t fail, but could you explain your beliefs regarding the scriptures i quoted in my “missionary lesson” as you called it regarding their teachings of falling away, and a famine of the word of the lord etc? That maybe i could understand you better?

 

[Techno2000]

Techno 2000,
Perhaps you didn’t read my original post in response to this particular thread. You would know, I assume if you are a Bible student, that the Sadducees did not accept Christ as their Redeemer and Savior, and in fact did not believe in the resurrection at all. Yet, they were a Jewish sect. They were part of the “crowd” who asked questions of Jesus during His ministry.

Surely you will understand that by rejecting Christ, the Sadducees were rejecting the opportunity for the rebirth of baptism by water and by the Spirit, rejecting the healing power of the Savior’s atonement, and rejecting the idea of being raised from the dead with a glory beyond their comprehension. Why would Christ suggest or promise to them something that the gospel does not promise which would be any implication that those who do not believe in Christ can be exalted or have eternal marriage? He spoke to them “where they were at”–not where they had the potential to change for the better if they would sincerely listen to Him.

Now again, realize that the Sadducees to whom the Savior was speaking, could still make changes in their lives and could follow the Savior. But they provided a “hypothetical” situation for the Savior to teach about, and teach them He did. He taught them that those Sadducees of the “hypothetical” example who had died and thus had done so without accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior and Redeemer (since they were “with us” meaning “with Sadducees” or in other words were Sadducees), would be as the angels in the resurrection.

Those who want an eternal marriage, and are willing to live for it, means they are willing to make the kinds of changes in their lives that the gospel involves–becoming a new and better person including a better marriage companion than they ever dreamed of becoming “on their own”. Christ guides in that process, as does the Holy Spirit, if two people place Them into the center of their relationship and are humble. It means such a couple can become “joint heirs” with Jesus Christ, who did indeed create this earth, so yes, those who become joint heirs can organize the materials within the Universe to form a new earth, and can help spirits come to that earth and progress through their own life’s experiences. (But nothing like the short-sighted, ill-conceived misunderstanding of your question.)

Such an opportunity is offered, but not forced onto anyone. The “binding on earth and in heaven” is required–the authority the apostles had, and that authority must really have been granted by God rather than assumed by man.

“At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”

Jesus was simply explaining the afterlife to people, you are twisting this around to try and stop the contradiction it has for LDS teachings.

catholicforum.com/churches/cathteach/divinemercy1.htm

 

[ParkerD]

“At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”

Jesus was simply explaining the afterlife to people, you are twisting this around to try and stop the contradiction it has for LDS teachings.

catholicforum.com/churches/cathteach/divinemercy1.htm

Techno 2000,
Whether you realize it or not, you have quoted a mistranslation of the text. The insertion of the word “people” is a complete mistranslation, and illustrates the whole point that such mistranslations lead in a different direction than the words Christ Himself used. Christ knew exactly and precisely what He was saying and what He intended His words to mean.

Those who brought you the mistranslated text are those who have “twisted this around.” Talk to them, not to me, about the twisting around.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno 2000,
Whether you realize it or not, you have quoted a mistranslation of the text. The insertion of the word “people” is a complete mistranslation, and illustrates the whole point that such mistranslations lead in a different direction than the words Christ Himself used. Christ knew exactly and precisely what He was saying and what He intended His words to mean.

Those who brought you the mistranslated text are those who have “twisted this around.” Talk to them, not to me, about the twisting around.

From the DOUAY-RHEIMS Bible:
Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first having married a wife, died; and not having issue, left his wife to his brother.

26 In like manner the second, and the third, and so on to the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 At the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? for they all had her. 29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Jesus was telling the whole world about the afterlife, the words “They” and “People” mean the same thing.

 

[ParkerD]

From the DOUAY-RHEIMS Bible:
Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first having married a wife, died; and not having issue, left his wife to his brother.

26 In like manner the second, and the third, and so on to the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 At the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? for they all had her. 29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Jesus was telling the whole world about the afterlife, the words “They” and “People” mean the same thing.

Techno 2000,
I give up with trying to have you understand. Some people understand English and the use of pronouns. Others don’t. Pronouns can sometimes lead to misunderstanding, but I think it is very evident that the Sadducees knew precisely what Jesus meant in the use of the language He used, and that’s why they stopped asking any more questions at that time.