LDS - Celestial Marriage

[Techno2000]

Techno 2000,
I give up with trying to have you understand. Some people understand English and the use of pronouns. Others don’t. Pronouns can sometimes lead to misunderstanding, but I think it is very evident that the Sadducees knew precisely what Jesus meant in the use of the language He used, and that’s why they stopped asking any more questions at that time.

OK, Parker… in A clear SIMPLE way please tell me what Jesus was trying to say to the Sadducees .

 

[mrparker]

OK, Parker… in A clear SIMPLE way please tell me what Jesus was trying to say to the Sadducees .

It has been said multiple times, in more than one simple way what he was telling the sadducees. Reread the posts.

 

[ricko]

Techno 2000,
I give up with trying to have you understand. Some people understand English and the use of pronouns. Others don’t. Pronouns can sometimes lead to misunderstanding, but I think it is very evident that the Sadducees knew precisely what Jesus meant in the use of the language He used, and that’s why they stopped asking any more questions at that time.

Goodness Parker. Do you actually believe you are the ONLY one who can understand pronouns and the English language. There is not a different rule for Sadducees than everyone else. We are all under the same law and when one does not know the law they are judged according to what’s in their hearts. So “they” applies to the seven and everyone else. We know you were taught this belief in your church but those of us who allow ourselves to be guided by the Holy Spirit and use common sense can objectively understand the verse and it clearly applies to everyone. There will be no marriage in heaven. Almost everyone understood what scripture says about marriage after death, that’s why they say “till death do us part”.

 

[Techno2000]

JJ59,
Hi, and God bless you also. I hope you won’t mind my chiming in as well.

It would seem pretty important to look at the context of passages of scripture where the Savior is speaking to specific groups–especially when a question has been “set up” to try and trap Him, as was the case with the question by the Sadducees, “which say that there is no resurrection.” They wanted to give Him a complicated case to see how He would prove that there is indeed a resurrection but yet answer their question.

Remember, the Sadducees would be part of a group of Jews who were hung up with the law and were not looking for a Redeemer and Savior, nor believed in the resurrection. So these men, by asking about “there were with us seven brethren”, were already providing a specific context for their question, and it did not have to do with every marriage in the world. It had to do with a particular marriage of a particular Sadducee, who by being a Sadducee means he does not believe in the resurrection and therefore has rejected the coming of a Savior to the world. He would be disqualified from having an eternal marriage, right off the bat, because of unbelief.

Note how the multitude “were astonished at his doctrine” (v. 33), and I’m sure were astonished at how deftly He answered the question. “They” (meaning the Sadducees brothers) “neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” So the answer means that the Sadducees will be resurrected, but will not have eternal marriages because (1) they have already rejected the Savior in life, and (2) there is not going to be a second chance for eternal marriage in the resurrection for those who have rejected the Savior’s grace in life while knowing about Him. All they can attain is the stature of angels (which is fine and glorious, but not all they could have attained if they had embraced the saving gospel of Jesus Christ and rejected the traditions of their fathers.)

The question actually shows that the Sadducees were aware that there was a doctrine of eternal marriage, which would be why they asked the question in the first place–“whose wife shall she be of the seven?”

The Savior gave, of course, a brilliant response, and put them “to silence.”

I hope that has given you something to think about. Read the whole passage a few times, and remember the Savior’s specific audience for the answer to the question He was asked. He wasn’t talking to future Catholics, nor to future LDS. He was talking to Sadducees only in that particular instance.

This is just silly, to think that “eternal marriage” is somehow way better than living like a Angel in Heaven… how do you know whats it like to live as an Angel in Heaven ?

 

[ParkerD]

OK, Parker… in A clear SIMPLE way please tell me what Jesus was trying to say to the Sadducees .

Techno 2000,
I like SIMPLE.

Who began the conversation Jesus had with the Sadducees?

Answer: the Sadducees–when they asked Him a question by presenting a “hypothetical” case of some brothers who had died who were at some point in time “with them” (i.e. with the Sadducees).

Who was the subject of the conversation?

Answer: the seven brothers

There is no mistaking that the seven brothers are the subject being discussed.

So, then, what was meant by the use of the word that became translated into English as “they”?

Answer: the seven brothers, who were the subject of the conversation.

 

[ParkerD]

This is just silly, to think that “eternal marriage” is somehow way better than living like a Angel in Heaven… how do you know whats it like to live as an Angel in Heaven ?

Techno 2000,
If that is how you want to live forever, this is fine and is your choice. I happen to love my wife, and happen to know that when Jesus said “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder,” He knew exactly what He was saying and He was talking about marriage that God is involved with by joining the union through an eternal covenant and the power and authority that binds on earth what will be bound in heaven.

See Matthew 19:6 or Mark 10:9 for the reference in the Bible of Jesus’ words.

 

[thecourt]

Techno2000 claims that we do things we do not, particularly have our own planet.

Is it a problem to BECOME LIKE GOD, NOT A GOD, BECOME LIKE GOD. There is a difference from all this will a God false talk.

 

[Techno2000]

Parker:
When Jesus said…Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s… this only applied to the Sadducees right ???

 

[PaulDupre]

Techno2000 claims that we do things we do not, particularly have our own planet.

Is it a problem to BECOME LIKE GOD, NOT A GOD, BECOME LIKE GOD. There is a difference from all this will a God false talk.

thecourt,
You don’t know what your church teaches. Here is what the LDS church teaches its members, from the current Gospel Principles manual at LDS.org:

Blessings of Exaltation
Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, “This is my work and my glory–to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).

1. They will become gods.

1. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

1. They will receive a fulness of joy.

1. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have–all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

• Gospel Principles, chapter 47

Here is more, from Joseph Fielding Smith (10th president/prophet of the LDS church):

“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; **thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on **and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.”

• Joseph Fielding Smith, *Doctrines of Salvation *(Vol. 2 pg 48)

thecourt,
please follow the link to LDS.org and read the Gospel Principles manual. You need to learn at least a little bit about what your church teaches before you come here and try to tell us.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno 2000,
If that is how you want to live forever, this is fine and is your choice. I happen to love my wife, and happen to know that when Jesus said “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder,” He knew exactly what He was saying and He was talking about marriage that God is involved with by joining the union through an eternal covenant and the power and authority that binds on earth what will be bound in heaven.

See Matthew 19:6 or Mark 10:9 for the reference in the Bible of Jesus’ words.

Parker, you and your wife will live TOGETHER in Heaven as Angels, God won’t split y’all up.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker:
When Jesus said…Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God, the things that are God’s… this only applied to the Sadducees right ???

Hi, Techno 2000,
Thanks for the question that shows you are thinking about these kinds of issues.

Here is the relevant text (KJV–probably the DR is close to the same):

15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

So to whom was Jesus talking? To the Pharisees and the Herodians.

Now, your question implies that you have looked at verse 17 and made a judgment about the intent of Jesus’ response to the specific question. It is a generic question about giving “tribute” (i.e. paying taxes) to Caesar, and about observing the “law” which implies both the laws of men and the law of God. Jesus taught about how to differentiate doing both things, and we can learn from what He taught, but specifically He was speaking to the Pharisees and the Herodians.

 

[PaulDupre]

Parker, you and your wife will live TOGETHER in Heaven as Angels, God won’t split y’all up.

Techno2000,
Let’s not confuse the LDS any more that they already are. We will not actually be angels in heaven, but will be like the angels only in that we will not be married. Angels and humans are two separate species with entirely different natures. Angels are beings of pure spirit, whereas man is a spirit and body joined as one.

 

[ParkerD]

To the general reader and to The Court:
If you do want to read the LDS Gospel Principles manual, you might as well read the manual that is linked to the front page of lds.org and is the 2009 update, which will be the teaching guide for priesthood and Relief Society classes during 2010 and 2011. It has changed from the older manual, for the better!

 

[Techno2000]

Hi, Techno 2000,
Thanks for the question that shows you are thinking about these kinds of issues.

Here is the relevant text (KJV–probably the DR is close to the same):

15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

So to whom was Jesus talking? To the Pharisees and the Herodians.

Now, your question implies that you have looked at verse 17 and made a judgment about the intent of Jesus’ response to the specific question. It is a generic question about giving “tribute” (i.e. paying taxes) to Caesar, and about observing the “law” which implies both the laws of men and the law of God. Jesus taught about how to differentiate doing both things, and we can learn from what He taught, but specifically He was speaking to the Pharisees and the Herodians.

That’s right you are correct, the Pharisees and the Herodians. so when Jesus says…Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. … it only applies to the Pharisees and the Herodians ?

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000,
Let’s not confuse the LDS any more that they already are. We will not actually be angels in heaven, but will be like the angels only in that we will not be married. Angels and humans are two separate species with entirely different natures. Angels are beings of pure spirit, whereas man is a spirit and body joined as one.

Right, I know people aren’t going to turn into Angels, they are going to live the lifestyle of a Angel.

 

[PaulDupre]

To the general reader and to The Court:
If you do want to read the LDS Gospel Principles manual, you might as well read the manual that is linked to the front page of lds.org and is the 2009 update, which will be the teaching guide for priesthood and Relief Society classes during 2010 and 2011. It has changed from the older manual, for the better!

They changed the Gospel Principles manual the same way they change the temple endowment - by dropping parts of it. When Mormon teachings get extremely embarrassing and difficult to defend, they merely drop them and then pretend they were never taught,

In the case of Gospel Principles, I notice they dropped a significant sentence from Chapter 47:

This is the way our Heavenly Father became God.

Is the LDS church now trying to deny that they believe that God was not always God? This would be a major doctrinal shift and a complete re-working of Joseph Smith and all succeeding prophets’ teachings on Eternal Progression.

Or are they just dumbing-down the manual, making it more milky and less meaty?

I’d be very interested to know. It is interesting to watch a major doctrinal shift happen right before my eyes.

 

[ParkerD]

That’s right you are correct, the Pharisees and the Herodians. so when Jesus says…Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. … it only applies to the Pharisees and the Herodians ?

Techno 2000,
You can decide whether that particular teaching applies to you, I suppose. I consider that I should render unto God the things that are God’s, so I would say that it definitely applies to me, and I appreciate the clarity of Christ’s language and the effectiveness with which He answered the question that was supposed to have been a “trick question”.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, you and your wife will live TOGETHER in Heaven as Angels, God won’t split y’all up.

Techno 2000,
So by your saying that “live TOGETHER” does not mean “as married husband and wife”, are you saying that you have “put asunder” that which God hath “joined together”?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Elaborate please.

However I do not believe that all have the Gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion to guide and educate pertaining to all things.

 

[Techno2000]

They changed the Gospel Principles manual the same way they change the temple endowment - by dropping parts of it. When Mormon teachings get extremely embarrassing and difficult to defend, they merely drop them and then pretend they were never taught,

In the case of Gospel Principles, I notice they dropped a significant sentence from Chapter 47:

Is the LDS church now trying to deny that they believe that God was not always God? This would be a major doctrinal shift and a complete re-working of Joseph Smith and all succeeding prophets’ teachings on Eternal Progression.

Or are they just dumbing-down the manual, making it more milky and less meaty?

I’d be very interested to know. It is interesting to watch a major doctrinal shift happen right before my eyes.

Didn’t the Devil tell Adam and Eve something about becoming like God.