LDS Church position on illegal immigration is same as mine

[catholic-rcia]

What is not fair is that most cannot get citizenship. Or they have to wait 10 to 20 years.

I just feel lucky to be born here.
But I do not feel that I am an American simply because I was born here. I feel I am an American because I understand what it means to be an American, to be free.

Those not born here on this ground should have the same right to become an American as I. We have no right to prevent this. Or to make it so difficult that so many will break the law to come. …I would break in…I would come. Why? Because I am an American. Who has a lock of Freedom given as a gift from God?

If I had a choice to follow a law that kept me away from Jesus I would break it, willingly take the chance of being jailed. When others around the world seek true freedom from bondage of all kinds and make the choice to come to the United States of America, to take such a risk I would call them Americans. When you make it hard for others to come here and have a share in the Dream of being free you deny your own citizenship, your own freedom in a very deep and profound way.

 

[BartBurk]

What is not fair is that most cannot get citizenship. Or they have to wait 10 to 20 years.

I just feel lucky to be born here.
But I do not feel that I am an American simply because I was born here. I feel I am an American because I understand what it means to be an American, to be free.

Those not born here on this ground should have the same right to become an American as I. We have no right to prevent this. Or to make it so difficult that so many will break the law to come. …I would break in…I would come. Why? Because I am an American. Who has a lock of Freedom given as a gift from God?

If I had a choice to follow a law that kept me away from Jesus I would break it, willingly take the chance of being jailed. When others around the world seek true freedom from bondage of all kinds and make the choice to come to the United States of America, to take such a risk I would call them Americans. When you make it hard for others to come here and have a share in the Dream of being free you deny your own citizenship, your own freedom in a very deep and profound way.

If we get rid of the welfare state I’m all for opening the borders.

 

[cmforte]

Being an American is something special. It is not a designaton we just give away for the highest dollar to just anyone that wants it.

-Chris

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

You are forgiven but never allowed to receive the Eucharist is not Catholic teaching.

Not a Mormon teaching, either.

Stephen168:

I forgot the Mormon Church does have another teaching about the innocent being guilty due to the acts of their parents

Maybe you forgot it because it’s not true.
What you say is anathema to our beliefs. Violates the 2nd Article of faith, and Moroni 8, among other things.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Once the person breaks the law: should they be punished for the rest of their life or should there be a way to become part of the community?

As Catholics we believe that a sinner can be forgiven for their personal sins, so there should be a way for almost anyone to become a citizen. We also believe in penance, so forgiveness is not easy or automatic.

The Mormon view being given here says there is [goes on to absolutely misrepresent LDS views.[/COLOR]
Aside from your horrible misrepresentations of LDS doctrine, I entirely agree with what you’ve said on immigration and on forgiveness.

I also agree with your “almost” qualification. As a general rule, I would not want to bring ex-Taliban and ex-Al Qaeda folks into the country, but might conceive an exception along the lines of the SS-turncoat in the movie “inglourious basterds.”

 

[BartBurk]

Aside from your horrible misrepresentations of LDS doctrine, I entirely agree with what you’ve said on immigration and on forgiveness.

I also agree with your “almost” qualification. As a general rule, I would not want to bring ex-Taliban and ex-Al Qaeda folks into the country, but might conceive an exception along the lines of the SS-turncoat in the movie “inglourious basterds.”

If you allow a flood of illegal aliens to come here, no matter how nice they were, it would fiscally destroy our country. That’s because our welfare system can’t handle it. If we were rid of the welfare system we could allow them to come because they would only come if there was a job. They have to remain illegal for the system to work to the advantage of both the illegal immigrants and us.

youtube.com/watch?v=3eyJIbSgdSE

youtube.com/watch?v=3eyJIbSgdSE

 

[Stephen168]

I forgot the Mormon Church does have another teaching about the innocent being guilty due to the acts of their parents, so this could be consistent with the Mormon Church’s teaching on abortion. They announce that human life is sacred unless the parents are sinful (rape and incest) then it is not.

Maybe you forgot it because it’s not true.

It is true but this an another example of the caos of continuing revelation

, or… exceptions****rape or incest

 

[Stephen168]

Aside from your horrible misrepresentations of LDS doctrine, I entirely agree with what you’ve said on immigration and on forgiveness.

I don’t think I misrepresented Mormon teaching at all. In fact you didn’t correct anything I said. I think your view is more Catholic than Mormon according to the OP.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

I don’t think I misrepresented Mormon teaching at all. In fact you didn’t correct anything I said.

The parts that I cited were correct. And I precisely corrected the other parts by stating that they were precisely and diametrically opposed to the truth. You could simply insert the word “not,” or remove it if already there, and then the statement would be correct.

For example:

stephen:

they would hold a child responsible for the acts of its parents.

would read correctly as:

they would hold NOT a child responsible for the acts of its parents.

Do I really need to go through each sentence?

As for abortion being a manner of “punishing” a fetus or holding a fetus “responsible” for its parents’ sins … that’s too horrific for me to respond to within the politeness requirements of this forum. If you’d like to discuss this somewhere else, I’d be happy to tell you what I really think of that line of reasoning.

 

[Stephen168]

And I precisely corrected the other parts by stating that they were precisely and diametrically opposed to the truth. You could simply insert the word “not,” or remove it if already there, and then the statement would be correct.

For example:

would read correctly as:

Do I really need to go through each sentence?

Yes,
Denial is not a correction.

As for abortion being a manner of “punishing” a fetus or holding a fetus “responsible” for its parents’ sins … that’s too horrific for me to respond to within the politeness requirements of this forum. If you’d like to discuss this somewhere else, I’d be happy to tell you what I really think of that line of reasoning.

I showed in my post #27 that you are lying about the current teaching of the Mormon Church on abortion. The point is the Mormon Church’s teaching on illegal immigration seems to be consistent with the Mormon Church’s teaching on abortion. The OP claims that a child brought illegally to the US should never be forgiven by the acts of its parents. It should never be given citizenship because it came to the US illegally by its parent. The Mormon Church’s view that once a person does something wrong they can never be completely forgiven is also what I’ve been told about Mormon teaching on confession. A Mormon is excommunicated not forgiven for sin.

The Catholic Church’s position is consistent with its view sin and forgiveness. I am glad to see that you are uncomfortable with Mormon teaching, I would be too.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

In order to try to accuse me of “lying” Stephen misrepresented what I said.

I showed in my post #27 that you are lying about the current teaching of the Mormon Church on abortion.

Since I never said anything on this board about the “current teaching of the Mormon Church on abortion,” I can only assume that you confused me with someone else, possibly someone that does not exist.

Just to frustrate you, Stephen, I will try to avoid ever saying anything about the teaching of the LDS church on abortion. That will make it difficult for you to misrepresent what I said on the subject with any degree of credibility other than those who aren’t paying attention anyway.

Anyone who cares to know about the subject can look it up.

What I did say is that the LDS church categorically rejects the idea that any child is GUILTY because of the sins of a parent, or that any person is GUILTY or requires repentance because of another person’s actions.

The Mormon Church’s view that once a person does something wrong they can never be completely forgiven is also what I’ve been told about Mormon teaching on confession.

Wow. What you’ve “been told”? By unspecified parties? How authoritative! :takethat:

How old are you, Stephen?

No, you’ve been misinformed. Other than denying the Holy Ghost, you can be completely forgiven. If anyone who is actually paying attention cares to know, I can look up references on that.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Ah. Remarkably, one of Stephen’s ignorant accusations may be based on an honest misunderstanding.

A Mormon is excommunicated not forgiven for sin.

Mormon excommunication is NOT analogous to Catholic excommunication.

A closer analogy would be LDS “excommunication” :: Catholic DEFROCKING.

An uncle of mine was excommunicated twice, and still the church worked on bringing him back.

The Book of Mormon and nearly yearly sermons from our prophet **specifically forbid us to shun **excommunicated members. We welcome them into our church and fellowship.

Excommunicants are denied communion, they are not allowed to give tithing to the church, and they are not allowed to teach or lead the congregation in prayer.

After at least 1 year, an excommunicated member may be brought back into full fellowship in the church, depending on the local leader’s discretion that repentance has occurred, etc.

 

[Stephen168]

In order to try to accuse me of “lying” Stephen misrepresented what I said…

No, you’ve been misinformed. Other than denying the Holy Ghost, you can be completely forgiven.

Denial is not a correction.

What I did say is that the LDS church categorically rejects the idea that any child is GUILTY because of the sins of a parent, or that any person is GUILTY or requires repentance because of another person’s actions.

Yes, that is what you said. The OP claims you are incorrect in regard to Mormon teaching on illegal immigration and I showed how you are incorrect in regard to Mormon abortion teaching. Now you are correct in regard to Mormon teaching on ‘original sin.’
What we can see is the Mormon Church is not consistent in its teachings. I think it teaches according to political correctness not reason and truth.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

stephen:

Yes, that is what you said. The OP claims you are incorrect in regard to Mormon teaching on illegal immigration

Please QUOTE what I said about “mormon teaching on illegal immigration.”

I showed how you are incorrect in regard to Mormon abortion teaching.

Please quote what what you think I said about “Mormon abortion teaching.”

I don’t recall ever describing “mormon teaching on illegal immigration” or “Mormon abortion teaching” at any time on this board

I said that I personally agree with what you said about illegal immigration. Most of my clients are good Catholic hispanics who either have immigration issues or have family members with immigration issues. My own church’s teachings on the importance of family have made me very sensitive to this country’s anti-family immigration policies. It turns my stomach that a husband of an American citizen, and father of American citizen children, is forced to return to Juarez for months and years, waiting in limbo, while his pregnant wife and children try to petition exceptions for him. Those are my own views. I’m very well versed in the doctrine of the LDS church, so I know that what you said about a child having any sort of “guilt” is horribly incorrect.

I recognize that your church takes a much harder line against abortion, divorce, and suicide than the LDS church does. (Suicide is of course a terrible sin, but the LDS church does not deny a church funeral to someone who has committed suicide). Notwithstanding our softer line on these issues, I think that you’ll find that divorce, abortion, and suicide among the LDS are not higher than those of Catholics in the same geographical areas. Ultimately, I think we share the same underlying values regarding these issues.

If you dislike our softer line on the policies, that’s certainly your right. But please don’t inaccurately impute monstrous motives to us, e.g. that we see fetuses as “guilty.”

I don’t know what you mean by “the OP.” You mean the proclamation on the family? Comparisons of quotes would be helpful, since I don’t understand what you’re perceiving as contradiction.