LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[Javl]

1. God is spirit, not A spirit. We have a spirit as well as a body.
2. If God is spirit and we are supposed to worship Him in spirit, do we leave our bodies behind to do so?

No argument there.

These do not answer my questions.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[RebeccaJ]

As long as LDS are redefining words, there will never be understanding.

More than one LDS person here has claimed “God” is a title. This latest thread, this appears to be the case, with perhaps describing “God” as a state.

God is neither a title or state. God IS. He has said, “I AM”.

 

[scipio337]

…

I disagree, we are not finite. We are eternal also. We existed before we were born and will exist forever after we die.
I am under no such idea that Jesus is a creature. He is the Only Begotten Son of God, the second member of the Godhead.
I understand when you say Jesus was born 2 natures, He was mortal, and imortal at the same time. No man could take His life from Him, and only He could lay down His life.
“Human nature” does not displace divine nature, it is not a dichotomy. “Human nature”, when perfected, is divine.

And there again is the great schism. Historically, there is no belief in Judaism or orthodox Christianity in the “pre-existence”. Period. The “Great Apostacy” has to extend well before Christ’s ministry, if the LDS are correct.

And you’re mincing words with “creature”. I created both of my daughters, with my wife. They are our “creations”. Would you refer to them as “creature”, or “children”, and why the difference? It seems a difference without distinction.

flyonthewall:

I agree with most everything here as I have never stated Jesus was a creature.
As children of God, what do you think our potential is, given all that has been promised in the scriptures?

Our potential is to share in God’s glory, while remaining to be created beings. You can’t find the equivalent of Exaltation in Judaism or Orthodox Christianity. Theosis and Deification don’t come close, as both our natures, the nature of God, and Christ are inherently, and ontologically different.

As I said before, this “Great Apostacy” would have to start well before Christ’s ministry for LDS beliefs to be true.

 

[Nicea325]

And there again is the great schism. Historically, there is no belief in Judaism or orthodox Christianity in the “pre-existence”. Period. The “Great Apostacy” has to extend well before Christ’s ministry, if the LDS are correct.

And you’re mincing words with “creature”. I created both of my daughters, with my wife. They are our “creations”. Would you refer to them as “creature”, or “children”, and why the difference? It seems a difference without distinction.

Our potential is to share in God’s glory, while remaining to be created beings. You can’t find the equivalent of Exaltation in Judaism or Orthodox Christianity. Theosis and Deification don’t come close, as both our natures, the nature of God, and Christ are inherently, and ontologically different.

As I said before, this “Great Apostacy” would have to start well before Christ’s ministry for LDS beliefs to be true.

Indeed our LDS friend believes we already existed? That we are eternal?

 

[SteveVH]

I disagree, we are not finite. We are eternal also. We existed before we were born and will exist forever after we die. I am under no such idea that Jesus is a creature. He is the Only Begotten Son of God, the second member of the Godhead. I understand when you say Jesus was born 2 natures, He was mortal, and imortal at the same time. No man could take His life from Him, and only He could lay down His life. “Human nature” does not displace divine nature, it is not a dichotomy. “Human nature”, when perfected, is divine.

Do you understand that when you say that “We are eternal also” that you are saying that we existed with God from the beginning and, in fact, had no beginning? The question remains. Where did all of this eternal matter, these eternal “intelligences” and eternal spirits originate? Please explain. You seem to draw no distinction between the Creator and the created. Scripture does not refer to God as the “Organizer”, but rather the “Creator”.

"Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist. (1 Cor 8:6)

 

[flyonthewall]

Let me re-word this. Jesus and the Father are One. The Father does nothing without the Son and vice verse. He did not “teach” Jesus anything. They are the same being, thus my answer that Jesus saw everything the Father did, but more than that He participated in everything that His Father did. The Father is the Creator, yet everything was created by Jesus through the action of the Holy Spirit. You cannot separate them as if they were different beings.

Yes, the Father and Son are One, but they are still separate persons. It sounds like you are saying that Jesus didn’t really see the Father do anything, but performed like a marionette on strings.

Logical to anyone who will spend a brief amount of time considering the proposition. I don’t know what you are asking in the second question. My contention is that it does point to One who did not have a beginning.

Well I certainly don’t look to science to explain the eternal nature of God. I will say, though, that any scientist who had some degree of intellectual honesty and who believed in intelligent design of the universe, would have to come to the conclusion that there must be an uncaused cause. Something does not come from nothing in the natural world. That is a principal that is scientifically demonstrable.

As a person of faith, I see the hand of God in all of nature, but it is not logical, it is more a matter of faith.

Who said that rules were not followed? We have no choice but to submit to the laws of physics. When we fall out of a tree we hit the ground. What I have said is that God is not subject to the laws of physics. He didn’t just master them. He created them.

Would God create rules or laws that He would not live by? Is God not bound by His word?
I know you used the laws of physics as an example but we don’t know all the laws of physics. What physical laws we are exposed to here on earth may not apply elsewhere, so I am not referring to only the laws of physics we know of.

I still don’t think we’re communicating. Did He have a beginning?

No, He had no beginning as far as my comprehension of eternity is concerned.

I find it a little amazing at what you chose to interpret literally. As I find it a little amazing at other things that you choose to interpret literally.

Being made in His “image and likeness” has to do with our spiritual, rather than our physical nature.

I can take one or the other as having to do with our spiritual nature but not both. I would say “image” is physical, and “likeness” is spiritual.

It has to do with a man and a woman becoming one flesh, resulting in a third, real person, in keeping with the Trinity. It has to do with our ability to choose goodness over evil; our free will. There is no indication anywhere that the Father has physical body other than your interpretation of this passage. Remember, Jesus had to humble himself in order to take on human flesh. God appeared as a flame, a pillar of cloud, a burning bush until the incarnation of Jesus who is the “image of the invisible God”. If He had a physical body why did He not show Himself? We are not his literal children. We become His children through adaption. Jesus, however, has been the Son from eternity (without beginning). His Sonship is different than ours.

It is indeed a matter of interpretation. There are indications but they are not interpreted that way by you.
The bible state that Moses spoke to God face to face…how can that be if God has no face?
The Lord also had to cover Moses with his HAND, so Moses would not see God’s FACE, but only His BACK PARTS. If God was invisible, why would He need to make it so Moses could not see His face? How could Moses see God’s back parts if He has none?
There is evidence and indications that God has a body, but those scriptures are dismissed as meaning something else, because a rule has already been (man)made that prohibits it.

 

[flyonthewall]

Do you understand that when you say that “We are eternal also” that you are saying that we existed with God from the beginning and, in fact, had no beginning? The question remains. Where did all of this eternal matter, these eternal “intelligences” and eternal spirits originate? Please explain. You seem to draw no distinction between the Creator and the created. Scripture does not refer to God as the “Organizer”, but rather the “Creator”.

This would be like asking where did God come from. As far as we know they are all eternal. I tell you what, you tell me where God came from and I will tell you where eternal matter and eternal intelligences came from.
You say that God always existed and that is just the way it is. Okay, the same can be said with all things eternal. We can only go back to the “beginning”, beyond that is considered eternal or “always existing” to our limited understanding.
Eternal is also used to describe salvation. How can salvation be eternal if what is being saved is not? Can you tell me what ETERNAL Salvation is?

 

[Stephen168]

This almost summarizes Mormonism to my mind.

As a person of faith, I see the hand of God in all of nature, but it is not logical, it is more a matter of faith.

As a Catholic person of faith, I see the hand of God in all of nature, it is logical and a revelation.

 

[flyonthewall]

You have scriptual references were Jesus created heaven and earth under the direction of the Father? God is ONE,but three distinct persons…ALL divine. Are you stating Jesus is a lesser god being told what to do? Jesus IS the Eternal ONE who was before all creation. Remember Colossians: 1:16? All things were “created by Him.”

Jesus stated that He does the will of the Father…does that make Him lesser? Does Jesus have a different or separate will than the Father? Scripture indicates He does…remember the garden?

I beg your pardon? We are not finite? Are you Omniscient? Om(name removed by moderator)otent? Om(name removed by moderator)resent? Is Satan eternal? The angels?

I never said being eternal means being omniscient or omnipotent. That is something you have come up with. And yes, Satan is eternal, and was with God before creation. Satan was cast out. Satan still exists. I am curious, why didn’t God simply destroy Satan when He rebelled rather than just cast him out of heaven? What kept God from destroying him?

Then what was God doing here:

Gen 1:26: Then God said, “Let Us **make man **in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[a] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (NKJV)

God created our bodies in which our spirits are housed during mortality.

Likewise:

Gen 3:22:

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man **has become **like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

The Tree of Life represents eternal life. While Adam and Eve were yet sinless, they could partake of eternal life freely. Once sin entered the mix, eternal life was not available to them, instead, a redeemer became necessary.

How are you eternal? Is Satan eternal too? We live bcause God alone wills it,not because you will it.Sorry to rain on your parade brother,but you are not Eternal. ONLY GOD is Eternal. You live within the confines of space, matter and time and God is greater: Eternal. He is outside of time…ETERNAL.

You speak only of this mortal life. I existed before this mortal life, you did too. In Ecclesiastes 12, it states: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”. This is saying that our mortal bodies will return to dust, but our spirit will return to God…well, how can it return to God if it was never with God before?

Not member…Person.

Jesus is both God and man. Of course he can never die, the resurrection says it all.

okay.

What do you mean by potential?

What is your potential after you are resurrected? What are the possible rewards you may receive? I know what the scriptures tell me…what do they tell you?

 

[flyonthewall]

These do not answer my questions.
Jesus says that God is spirit and that we should worship Him in spirit.

1. If God is spirit then how can He be of flesh and blood?
2. If God is spirit and we are supposed to be like Him, how then are we of flesh and blood?

Shalom Aleichem

Perhaps this will answer your questions:

1. Jesus is God, yet also has a body. Having a body does not preclude one being spirit.
   We can be spirit too: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. When we are re-born we become spirit.
   So your presupposition that spirit cannot have a body is false.
2. You ask how we are of flesh and blood? Not sure if this is what you are really asking, but we are of flesh and blood because we were born to mortal parents.
   Would it make sense for God to make us un-like Him then command us He wants us to be like Him?

One thing I have not understood how others believe is why the importance of a physical body? If God has no body, why is one so important for us? Why is resurrection important? Why not once we die, we simply exist as spirits?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
You have scriptual references were Jesus created heaven and earth under the direction of the Father? God is ONE,but three distinct persons…ALL divine. Are you stating Jesus is a lesser god being told what to do? Jesus IS the Eternal ONE who was before all creation. Remember Colossians: 1:16? All things were “created by Him.”

Jesus stated that He does the will of the Father…does that make Him lesser? Does Jesus have a different or separate will than the Father? Scripture indicates He does…remember the garden?

flyonthewall,the fact Jesus submitted His will to the Father does not make Him less or inferior. Case in point,Jehovah Witnesses will use the verse “The Father is greater than I” to prove Jesus is less than the Father. Wrong! Jesus is not referring to His Substance,but that He humbled Himself to the Father’s will,which does not prove He is less.

God the Son incarnated as man to do the Father’s will,which does not equate into a less being. LDS and Jehovah Witnesses in many aspects follow the ancient heresy known as Arianism in the belief Jesus is not God and inferior to God. So Jesus is a lesser god? And nowhere does scripture teach Jesus is less than the Father. Again, Jesus IS God.God cannot contradict Himself

Quote:
I beg your pardon? We are not finite? Are you Omniscient? Om(name removed by moderator)otent? Om(name removed by moderator)resent? Is Satan eternal? The angels?

I

never said being eternal means being omniscient or omnipotent. That is something you have come up with. And yes, Satan is eternal, and was with God before creation. Satan was cast out. Satan still exists. I am curious, why didn’t God simply destroy Satan when He rebelled rather than just cast him out of heaven? What kept God from destroying him?

I did not come up with it,God did because He alone is Eternal.Are you kiddding me? Satan is eternal and was with God before creation? Which means Satan is also:

Omniscient,om(name removed by moderator)otent and om(name removed by moderator)resent.

Wrong!

So God and Satan created the angels,humans and all matter? Wow! God CREATED Satan and ALL the angels and EVERYTHING. So the fact God cast Satan into Hell is proof Satan is Eternal? Where do you come up with such unorthodx beliefs?

Quote:
Then what was God doing here:

Gen 1:26: Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[a] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” (NKJV)

God created our bodies in which our spirits are housed during mortality.

Exactly! Read what you said:created our bodies,hence how can we be eternal? God created us,body and soul,so how could we pre-exist wtih Him?

Quote:
Likewise:

Gen 3:22:

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

The Tree of Life represents eternal life. While Adam and Eve were yet sinless, they could partake of eternal life freely. Once sin entered the mix, eternal life was not available to them, instead, a redeemer became necessary.

The point is that God created HUMANS,so how could we pre-exist with Him?

Quote:
How are you eternal? Is Satan eternal too? We live bcause God alone wills it,not because you will it.Sorry to rain on your parade brother,but you are not Eternal. ONLY GOD is Eternal. You live within the confines of space, matter and time and God is greater: Eternal. He is outside of time…ETERNAL.

You speak only of this mortal life. I existed before this mortal life, you did too. In Ecclesiastes 12, it states: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”. This is saying that our mortal bodies will return to dust, but our spirit will return to God…well, how can it return to God if it was never with God before?

No fly.What I acknowledge is the fact you have a profound misunderstanding of the term eternal.

Quote:
Not member…Person.

Jesus is both God and man. Of course he can never die, the resurrection says it all.

okay.

He is God…ETERNAL.

Quote:
What do you mean by potential?

What is your potential after you are resurrected? What are the possible rewards you may receive? I know what the scriptures tell me…what do they tell you?

Well isn’t the ulitmate goal salvation with God? Resurrection of the body with soul in eternity with Our Creator?

 

[flyonthewall]

flyonthewall,the fact Jesus submitted His will to the Father does not make Him less or inferior. Case in point,Jehovah Witnesses will use the verse “The Father is greater than I” to prove Jesus is less than the Father. Wrong! Jesus is not referring to His Substance,but that He humbled Himself to the Father’s will,which does not prove He is less.

God the Son incarnated as man to do the Father’s will,which does not equate into a less being. LDS and Jehovah Witnesses in many aspects follow the ancient heresy known as Arianism in the belief Jesus is not God and inferior to God. So Jesus is a lesser god? And nowhere does scripture teach Jesus is less than the Father. Again, Jesus IS God.God cannot contradict Himself

I never said Jesus was inferior to the Father, I believe Him to be co-equal with the Father…do not create strawmen.

I did not come up with it,God did because He alone is Eternal.Are you kiddding me? Satan is eternal and was with God before creation? Which means Satan is also:

Omniscient,om(name removed by moderator)otent and om(name removed by moderator)resent.

Wrong!

So God and Satan created the angels,humans and all matter? Wow! God CREATED Satan and ALL the angels and EVERYTHING. So the fact God cast Satan into Hell is proof Satan is Eternal? Where do you come up with such unorthodx beliefs?

I told you, eternal does not mean being omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. That is a strawman of your own creation.
Okay, you don’t believe Satan was with God before creation? Then you tell me when Satan rebelled, and where was he cast out from…

Exactly! Read what you said:created our bodies,hence how can we be eternal? God created us,body and soul,so how could we pre-exist wtih Him?

What happens when we die? Is that the end of our existance? Maybe, we have a SPIRIT. Our spirit was with God before creation, and as I stated before, physical bodies were created to house our spirits during our mortal life.

The point is that God created HUMANS,so how could we pre-exist with Him?

When we die, our spirit returns to God who gave it. How can we return if we never were there to begin with?

No fly.What I acknowledge is the fact you have a profound misunderstanding of the term eternal.

I will admit I cannot comprehend eternal, but neither do I put limits on it.

Well isn’t the ulitmate goal salvation with God? Resurrection of the body with soul in eternity with Our Creator?

But why is a body important? why do we need it? God doesn’t have one right? Why?
The ultimate goal is salvation with God, but here you use eternity in regards to our salvation…how can it be eternal if we aren’t?

 

[Nicea325]

I never said Jesus was inferior to the Father, I believe Him to be co-equal with the Father…do not create strawmen.

I told you, eternal does not mean being omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. That is a strawman of your own creation.
Okay, you don’t believe Satan was with God before creation? Then you tell me when Satan rebelled, and where was he cast out from…

What happens when we die? Is that the end of our existance? Maybe, we have a SPIRIT. Our spirit was with God before creation, and as I stated before, physical bodies were created to house our spirits during our mortal life.

When we die, our spirit returns to God who gave it. How can we return if we never were there to begin with?

I will admit I cannot comprehend eternal, but neither do I put limits on it.

But why is a body important? why do we need it? God doesn’t have one right? Why?
The ultimate goal is salvation with God, but here you use eternity in regards to our salvation…how can it be eternal if we aren’t?

Sorry fly,but I am not creating any strawman arguments at all. The point is that you do not comprehend eternal,which has led you to believe what you do. Others have questioned you on it as well,because your position is faulty due to a misunderstanding of eternal.

 

[Javl]

Originally Posted by flyonthewall
I never said Jesus was inferior to the Father, I believe Him to be co-equal with the Father…do not create strawmen.

I told you, eternal does not mean being omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. That is a strawman of your own creation.
Okay, you don’t believe Satan was with God before creation? Then you tell me when Satan rebelled, and where was he cast out from…

What happens when we die? Is that the end of our existance? Maybe, we have a SPIRIT. Our spirit was with God before creation, and as I stated before, physical bodies were created to house our spirits during our mortal life.

When we die, our spirit returns to God who gave it. How can we return if we never were there to begin with?

I will admit I cannot comprehend eternal, but neither do I put limits on it.

But why is a body important? why do we need it? God doesn’t have one right? Why?
The ultimate goal is salvation with God, but here you use eternity in regards to our salvation…how can it be eternal if we aren’t?

I agree with Nicea325 about your misunderstanding of “eternal”. But I will answer your questions in the hope that you may try to understand.

1. It is true that there is nothing in scripture about Lucifer and his horde’s rebellion, But the Apostles taught it and it is mentioned in the Epistles in the Bible. Therefore we know that it happened and that it most likley was before the creation of man. Lucifer, or Satan, is an angel and therefore is a created being. He, along with all the angels were created during the creation just before man.
2. When we die we no longer continue in our physical existence but continue in a spiritual one. Our soul, which Christians believe was created by God at the time of conception, returns to God. He is the Creator and therefore is its judge, He determines its destination and fulfillment of its existence. The ultimate for the soul is the Beatific Vision and worship of God. This we believe is the reason for its existence. The soul is immortal, God alone is eternal.
3. As for the need of a body, only God in His infinite wisdom determined that. Many have tried to answer but with no results. We will find out when we meet Him.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, the Father and Son are One, but they are still separate persons. It sounds like you are saying that Jesus didn’t really see the Father do anything, but performed like a marionette on strings.

I’ll ignore your last statement. As for the first, you know very well that we also believe in three persons. This is the perfect example of playing with words. You believe in three separate beings. We believe in ONE being in three persons. Big difference. Lets at least keep that straight.

As a person of faith, I see the hand of God in all of nature, but it is not logical, it is more a matter of faith.

What is not logical is not to see the hand of God in the natural world, so I would say you are doing good in that department. The order of the seasons, the natural beauty of the land and the sea, the water that descends and ascends to nourish the earth, the incredible variety of life, much of which we have yet to discover. All of nature reflects the beauty of its Creator, but still only as a shadow of His true glory.

Would God create rules or laws that He would not live by?

Yes. You act as if this is a justice issue. Its not. The laws of physics are a good thing, but why would God subject Himself to the laws of physics? We require them in order to live. He does not. This is not like “the Govenor is not above the law”. You need to imagine a God that is so high above your ability to conceive that any human attempt to describe Him can only diminish the truth of His glory and majesty. His ways are not our ways. God does not need us nor anything that He has created. He existed before anything that has existed, therefore it would not make sense for Him to subject himself to something he has created. He has done it out of love, to show forth His glory. I guess what I am saying is that He is greater than that. He is greater than some being that is subject to the same physical laws to which his creation is subject.

Is God not bound by His word?

Where did He say that He would subject Himself to the laws of nature?

I know you used the laws of physics as an example but we don’t know all the laws of physics. What physical laws we are exposed to here on earth may not apply elsewhere, so I am not referring to only the laws of physics we know of.

Are you saying that heaven is a physical place somewhere way out there in the universe?

No, He had no beginning as far as my comprehension of eternity is concerned.

That is exactly what I and a lot of others have been trying to discern. What is your comprehension of eternity? It seems that you always have to qualify the term “eternity”. It is from a perspective, or a degree of comprehension. Maybe we could just define it so that we at least understand each other.

I would define eternity as being outside of space and time. One who is eternal has always been and will always be. No beginning and no end. The Alpha and the Omega. History unfolds at once; no yesterday and no tomorrow. Can you give me your understanding of “eternity”?

I can take one or the other as having to do with our spiritual nature but not both. I would say “image” is physical, and “likeness” is spiritual.

You are free to say anything you wish to say, but it seems a little arbitrary. I would say that a candle is in the image and likeness of the sun. They are both “fire”. They both give off light. They both give some degree of warmth. Multiply that “image and likeness” an infinite number of times and we still would not match the glory of God. Being made in God’s image and likeness does not mean we are made equal in any way. Most of all it means we have the ability to love.

It is indeed a matter of interpretation. There are indications but they are not interpreted that way by you. The bible state that Moses spoke to God face to face…how can that be if God has no face?

It’s a literary device that conveys a truth deeper than the words. It means we shall know God as He truly is. It doesn’t mean we’ll have our face pressed up against His. “Face to face” means to be in His presence. To see God’s face was certain death.

"But my face you cannot see, for no man sees me and still lives." (Ex 33:20)

The Lord also had to cover Moses with his HAND, so Moses would not see God’s FACE, but only His BACK PARTS. If God was invisible, why would He need to make it so Moses could not see His face? How could Moses see God’s back parts if He has none? There is evidence and indications that God has a body, but those scriptures are dismissed as meaning something else, because a rule has already been (man)made that prohibits it.

How could he see anything if God had covered his face? Especially, how could he see God’s “back parts” if God was in the form of a man and had his hand covering Moses’ eyes? This does not mean what you think it means. Again, it is a literary device meaning that God had to hide His glory from Moses because it was too great, for him or for any other man to witness.

 

[Stephen168]

My Jesus is not the brother of Satan. Yours?
flyonthewall;7369020:

Since you believe Jesus created Satan I guess that would mean Jesus is the father of Satan?

I do not try and tell you what you believe.

Oh, but you do and incorrectly at that.

 

[onenow1]

As for the need of a body, only God in His infinite wisdom determined that. Many have tried to answer but with no results. We will find out when we meet Him.

Best answer I’ve seen on the fly.

OHAV, SHALOM

 

[onenow1]

May the birthday of Jesus, and the lowering of Himself for mankind,especially in our generation,have a new and necessary awakening in our minds and in our hearts,so he may say to us, welcome into my Kingdom faithful servants !

Happy Birthday Jesus ! And Merry Christmas to all !

onenow1
:extrahappy:

 

[Stephen168]

"Joseph Smith 1844:

We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

No, He {God} had no beginning as far as my comprehension of eternity is concerned.

There was never a point at which God the Father was not God.

I’m not sure what Mormons believe. There seems to be conflicting views on God or eternity.

 

[KathleenGee]

Onenow

Merry Christmas to you as well, and God bless you!