LDS, Creeds, and the Trinity

[LDSYep]

How do you respond to this post from a Mormon, who, sadly is banned but was one of my favorite non-Catholics here on the CAFs (bold mine)

We are not Trinitarians. I agree with what this Mormon stated. I am not stating that the Godhead concept is the same as the Trinity concept, only that I think the LDS Godhead conception is similar in many ways to the Trinity concept.

However, if you are looking at the Godhead with an intent to view similarities to Trinitarianism, the following would hold true:

We pray to the Father, a member of the Godhead, in the name of the Son, a member of the Godhead, and that prayer is carried by the Holy Spirit, a member of the Godhead.

So, while I think that non-Trinitarians have severe difficulty grasping a completely proper conception of Trinitarian belief, and I do not know how a Trinitarian would explain prayer, does this fit in some way with a Trinitarian’s statement on prayer?

 

[LivingWaters7]

We are not Trinitarians. I agree with what this Mormon stated. I am not stating that the Godhead concept is the same as the Trinity concept, only that I think the LDS Godhead conception is similar in many ways to the Trinity concept.

However, if you are looking at the Godhead with an intent to view similarities to Trinitarianism, the following would hold true:

We pray to the Father, a member of the Godhead, in the name of the Son, a member of the Godhead, and that prayer is carried by the Holy Spirit, a member of the Godhead.

So, while I think that non-Trinitarians have severe difficulty grasping a completely proper conception of Trinitarian belief, and I do not know how a Trinitarian would explain prayer, does this fit in some way with a Trinitarian’s statement on prayer?

While Trinitarians certainly say prayers to the Father in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost, Trinitarians also have no problem praying directly to the Son or the Holy Ghost, since they are each fully God. When I was Catholic, I was taught, engaged in, and read in prayer books, many prayers directed to God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. LDS would never say prayers directly to Jesus or the Holy Ghost.

 

[SteveVH]

We are not Trinitarians. I agree with what this Mormon stated. I am not stating that the Godhead concept is the same as the Trinity concept, only that I think the LDS Godhead conception is similar in many ways to the Trinity concept.

However, if you are looking at the Godhead with an intent to view similarities to Trinitarianism, the following would hold true:

We pray to the Father, a member of the Godhead, in the name of the Son, a member of the Godhead, and that prayer is carried by the Holy Spirit, a member of the Godhead.

So, while I think that non-Trinitarians have severe difficulty grasping a completely proper conception of Trinitarian belief, and I do not know how a Trinitarian would explain prayer, does this fit in some way with a Trinitarian’s statement on prayer?

We pray in the name of God which is “Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”

 

[LDSYep]

Except of course that this doesn’t match up with what is actually taught in the LDS Church, including by various prophets and apostles.

Mormonism teaches that Christ is literally the firstborn son of God the Father (and Heavenly Mother). Christ, as we all were, was spiritually born in the pre-mortal existence, an idea completely rejected by orthodox Christianity. Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother spiritually begot sons and daughters, including all of us. The first of those was Jehovah, or Jesus (LDS many times refer to Him as our “Elder Brother”). The Holy Ghost was also a spirit son of God. As was Lucifer. Clearly, prior to this spiritual begetting, the Godhead did not exist, since the Son and the Holy Ghost were not spiritually begotten yet. Yes, they existed as “intelligence”, but then, so did all of us. Joseph Smith also taught that the Son and the Holy Ghost entered into an everlasting covenant with the Father, forming the Godhead. It is also taught, not only in the LDS scriptures, but by various prophets and apostles, that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are “three Gods”.

So, as I said earlier, there are clear differences between the two beliefs.

However, the intelligence that was Christ was greater than the intelligence that was you or I. We, LDS, have numerous statements referencing Christ as eternal and as Alpha and Omega. I think that we, LDS, should not jump to statements of Christ having a point of not existing, per se.

Yes, there are clear differences, but there are also clear similarities between the two concepts IMO. I think that LDS are so indoctrinated in denying the Trinity that too often we do not look at the similarities. Trinitarianism has origins in great Christian theologians, who studied the scriptures and the ECF’s deeply. While we may not agree with the conclusions reached, and even be at odds with the final statement thereof, we should respect their position and try to learn what we can from it.

In my mind I view it as similar to someone stating that 4 is arrived at by 2+2, while the actuality is that the 4 we are discussing was arrived at by 1+3. We have similar beliefs, our equations rely on a variable and thus we disagree with each other. 1+1+1 verses 1&1&1 both are 3, but the conception and resulting explanation are different. And this difference is important, and significant, to both LDS and Trinitarians.

 

[LDSYep]

While Trinitarians certainly say prayers to the Father in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost, Trinitarians also have no problem praying directly to the Son or the Holy Ghost, since they are each fully God. When I was Catholic, I was taught, engaged in, and read in prayer books, many prayers directed to God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. LDS would never say prayers directly to Jesus or the Holy Ghost.

Agreed. I have difficulty with the concept of praying to anyone other than the Father as the Lord’s prayer when asked how to pray holds for me the general format that we should follow.

 

[TexanKnight]

You state that Christ is God. Was Christ not as man is? From an LDS perspective everything has always existed in some form or another. Also, while there have been many things stated, I do not believe that we as LDS have ever stated that Christ did not exist at some point.

nice try…wrong again. you cannot compare the idea that Christ was God who became man to the silly LDS notion that God was man who became God…

geez

 

[TexanKnight]

Agreed. I have difficulty with the concept of praying to anyone other than the Father as the Lord’s prayer when asked how to pray holds for me the general format that we should follow.

so you pick and choose what parts of God you want to follow?

 

[LDSYep]

so you pick and choose what parts of God you want to follow?

No, but I believe that when Christ was asked how we should pray, His response is the pattern we should follow.

 

[PRmerger]

We are not Trinitarians. I agree with what this Mormon stated. I am not stating that the Godhead concept is the same as the Trinity concept, only that I think the LDS Godhead conception is similar in many ways to the Trinity concept.

Fair enough.

Although this is about as nebulous a statement as any I’ve read here on the CAFs.

 

[TexanKnight]

No, but I believe that when Christ was asked how we should pray, His response is the pattern we should follow.

lol…so when Christ said to use unleavened bread and wine, you ignore it? When Christ said There would be no total apostasy you ignore it? When Christ said to watch out for false prophets, you ignore it?

And the Lord’s Prayer is Matthew 6:9

but go up a few verses…

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Tell me…every time you pray, do you go into a closet?

lol

 

[LDSYep]

Fair enough.

Although this is about as nebulous a statement as any I’ve read here on the CAFs.

LOL! Yes, I guess so. My position in regards to the Trinity conception, is that most LDS have too strong an absolute denial position. I believe that many/most LDS would come to a greater understanding of what we believe if we acknowledge the similarities between our beliefs and this belief, than to simply disregard it as absolutely wrong.

 

[LDSYep]

lol…so when Christ said to use unleavened bread and wine, you ignore it? When Christ said There would be no total apostasy you ignore it? When Christ said to watch out for false prophets, you ignore it?

And the Lord’s Prayer is Matthew 6:9

but go up a few verses…

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Tell me…every time you pray, do you go into a closet?

lol

I have often. However, in answer to your question:

Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Should we therefore live in a closet?

 

[TexanKnight]

LOL! Yes, I guess so. My position in regards to the Trinity conception, is that most LDS have too strong an absolute denial position. I believe that many/most LDS would come to a greater understanding of what we believe if we acknowledge the similarities between our beliefs and this belief, than to simply disregard it as absolutely wrong.

apparently, you are afraid to answer…let me try again

lol…so when Christ said to use unleavened bread and wine, you ignore it? When Christ said There would be no total apostasy you ignore it? When Christ said to watch out for false prophets, you ignore it?

And the Lord’s Prayer is Matthew 6:9

but go up a few verses…

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Tell me…every time you pray, do you go into a closet?

lol

 

[TexanKnight]

I have often. However, in answer to your question:

Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Should we therefore live in a closet?

lol…so like I said…you pick and choose. the verse I showed you was from the same exact chapter that you pin your theory on…

do you pray in a closet each and every time?

and nice dodge on the other stuff from Christ you ignore

 

[LDSYep]

lol…so like I said…you pick and choose. the verse I showed you was from the same exact chapter that you pin your theory on…

do you pray in a closet each and every time?

and nice dodge on the other stuff from Christ you ignore

Acts 10:15 - From an LDS perspective God made alcohol unclean and stated that we could use any bread and water.

I don’t pick and choose. Perhaps you should have moved up a few more verses yourself. What was Christ speaking to when he mentioned the closet? He is speaking to praying for show, the closet is symbolic of praying humbly, of not looking for recognition.

 

[TexanKnight]

Acts 10:15 - From an LDS perspective God made alcohol unclean and stated that we could use any bread and water.

I don’t pick and choose. Perhaps you should have moved up a few more verses yourself. What was Christ speaking to when he mentioned the closet? He is speaking to praying for show, the closet is symbolic of praying humbly, of not looking for recognition.

lol…so the lds god used stuff unclean? And if alcohol was so unclean, why did js sell it? The hypocrisy grows.

And thank you for admitting you pick and choose. You have lost credibility on why you only pray to the Father…

 

[Imcatholic7]

Here is an interesting post from an LDS blog site: timesandseasons.org/index.php/2013/06/dont-debate-the-trinity/ The author gives his experience debating the Trinity. From that I just want to share a couple of quotes. Some on CAF’ers express frustration figuring out exactly what LDS believe. Here’s a quote Joseph Smith wrote in his journal that hopefully shed additional insight on why this can be.

The most prominent difference in sentiment between the Latter Day Saints and sectarians was, that the latter were all circumscribed by some peculiar creed, which deprived it’s members of the privilege, of believing anything not contained therein, whereas the Latter Day Saints have no creed, but are ready to believe all true principles that exist, as they are made manifest from time to time. ( The Journal of Joseph: The Personal Diary of a Modern Prophet, compiled by Leland Smith Nelson, p. 203.)

Then a commenter in the same post shares a couple of quotes regarding the Trinity. The first is from the book “How Wide the Divide?” by Robinson (LDS) and Blomberg (Evangelical)

Both Evangelicals and the LDS believe in the simultaneous oneness and threeness of God, though Evangelicals understand God’s oneness as an ontological oneness of being, while the LDS understand it as a oneness of mind, will and purpose. Both sides accept the biblical data about Christ and the Trinity, but interpret them by different extrabiblical standards (the ancient creeds for Evangelicals, the modern revelations of Joseph Smith for Mormons).

The second is from “LDS Beliefs: A Doctrinal Reference” by Robert L. Millett.

Latter-day Saints believe in the Trinity in the sense that we believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the three members of the Godhead. We do not, however, subscribe to all the teachings of the post-New Testament church councils and creeds that set forth what some have called the ontological oneness of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit — that these three, while three in person, are yet one in being.

I’m sharing these last two quotes because they seem to nicely and concisely highlight the differences and similarities between LDS and Orthodox Christian views on the Trinity. Enjoy!!

Joseph Smith was wrong. For example, the Apostles Creed does not contain Mass (the Eucharist) but yet they believed and practiced it. LDS cannot believe in the Trinity because they believe Christ was made and not begotten by a man from another planet who progressed to godhood. As Catholics, we believe the Pope can teach infallibly. I once read somewhere (I cannot remember where) that Catholics must be able to accept a changing faith (example: Vatican Council II). Therefore, we are not “deprived of the privilege” of believing in something that isn’t contained in that creed. Again, Catholics believe in Tradition, Scripture, and Magisterium. I ask, if the doctrine of the Trinity is wrong, why are the LDS and Jehovah’s Witnesses the only ones who claim to be Christian but yet do not accept such a fundamental doctrine? Surely over 2,000 years, someone reading the Bible, or some other way, would have figured it out if the Trinity was wrong? (However, the LDS believe the Church after the Apostles was corrupt. But then how was the Bible “translated correctly” (Articles of Faith by Joseph Smith) or how was it even COMPILED correctly if a “corrupt” Church compiled it?

 

[gazelam]

I’ve learned a thing or two on this thread and I think LW7 is the star this go around. Thank you! :thankyou:

 

[TexanKnight]

I’ve learned a thing or two on this thread and I think LW7 is the star this go around. Thank you! :thankyou:

if it was true you learned a thing or two, you would no longer be lds and you would no longer be following false prophets

 

[Imcatholic7]

I, at times, while studying, pondering and discussing the Trinitarian conception of God, have come upon moments where I believe that the LDS Godhead conception is very similar to may positions with regards to the Trinitarian conception. I think that the main differences are more in the heads of those demanding that a difference exists than in the conceptions themselves. I think that the OP is correct in the fundamental difference between the two paradigms. The difference is in the degree of differentiation between the members that are God/Godhead.

More like a man claiming to be a prophet of God taking Christian words and molding them into his own doctrine.