LDS: Did God 'create' Jesus?

  • Thread starter Thread starter campeador
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

campeador

Guest
Mormons please clarify:

“He produced a Spirit like to Himself,” namely Christ. Christ, in this sense, is not the “co-equal,” “eternally begotten,” “same substance” “persona” of the later creeds.

FAIR link
 
campeador said:
Mormons please clarify:

“He produced a Spirit like to Himself,” namely Christ. Christ, in this sense, is not the “co-equal,” “eternally begotten,” “same substance” “persona” of the later creeds.

FAIR link
Click to expand...
Here is another quote from that same source:

"***In December 2007 the Church issued the following press release on this issue:

Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel.
As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.***"

Notice how they first want to attach themselves to other Christians ("Like other Christians, we believe…") and then go on to contradict the Christian meaning. This is very typical.
 
campeador said:
Mormons please clarify:

“He produced a Spirit like to Himself,” namely Christ. Christ, in this sense, is not the “co-equal,” “eternally begotten,” “same substance” “persona” of the later creeds.

FAIR link
Click to expand...
Campeador,

Sometimes one must read carefully or they may lose important contextual meaning.

The first quote is from the following passage as translated from the writings of an Early Ante-Nicene Church “father” as stated:

The early Ante-Nicene Church father Lactantius wrote:
Since God was possessed of the greatest foresight for planning, and of the greatest skill for carrying out in action, before He commenced this business of the world,–inasmuch as there was in Him, and always is, the fountain of full and most complete goodness,–in order that goodness might spring as a stream from Him, and might flow forth afar, He produced a Spirit like to Himself, who might be endowed with the perfections of God the Father… Then He made another being, in whom the disposition of the divine origin did not remain. Therefore he was infected with his own envy as with poison, and passed from good to evil; and at his own will, which had been given to him by God unfettered, he acquired for himself a contrary name. From which it appears that the source of all evils is envy. For he envied his predecessor, who through his steadfastness is acceptable and dear to God the Father. This being, who from good became evil by his own act, is called by the Greeks diabolus:…"

If one is going to honestly and fairly try to understand the LDS belief about Jesus Christ as the Son of God, they need to sincerely come to grips with the idea that LDS believe there was such an entity as an “intelligence” before there were entities that were created from an intelligence and were made into “spirits” by a loving Heavenly Father who knew those intelligences and their potential.

So with that as a foundational doctrinal premise, then when one considers a simple question such as you asked in your header, then the answer is “no” from the standpoint that the intelligence Who became the Firstborn in the Spirit was already in existence from all eternity before, and was the most supremely gifted, attuned automatically to His Father’s will, and loving Spirit and thus immediately became God the Son, Alpha and Omega.

All this happened long before any other intelligences having to do with this earth became spirits, so from the standpoint of the other spirits and from the standpoint of us living on earth, Jesus is Alpha and is God the Son from all eternity to all eternity given our sphere as spirits and then mortal people.
 
campeador said:
So, your answer is no?
Click to expand...
Campeador,

We live in a world of language, but that is not a perfect world in terms of people understanding each other. A word can have different meanings for different people. A word can also have different connotations within different contexts.

What do you have in mind by your use of the word “create”?
 
ParkerD said:
Campeador,

We live in a world of language, but that is not a perfect world in terms of people understanding each other. A word can have different meanings for different people. A word can also have different connotations within different contexts.

What do you have in mind by your use of the word “create”?
Click to expand...
Parker, please read what I originally posted from FAIR, a prominent LDS apologetics website and clarify.

Thanks. 🙂
 
ParkerD said:
Campeador,

Sometimes one must read carefully or they may lose important contextual meaning.

The first quote is from the following passage as translated from the writings of an Early Ante-Nicene Church “father” as stated:

The early Ante-Nicene Church father Lactantius wrote:
Since God was possessed of the greatest foresight for planning, and of the greatest skill for carrying out in action, before He commenced this business of the world,–inasmuch as there was in Him, and always is, the fountain of full and most complete goodness,–in order that goodness might spring as a stream from Him, and might flow forth afar, He produced a Spirit like to Himself, who might be endowed with the perfections of God the Father… Then He made another being, in whom the disposition of the divine origin did not remain. Therefore he was infected with his own envy as with poison, and passed from good to evil; and at his own will, which had been given to him by God unfettered, he acquired for himself a contrary name. From which it appears that the source of all evils is envy. For he envied his predecessor, who through his steadfastness is acceptable and dear to God the Father. This being, who from good became evil by his own act, is called by the Greeks diabolus:…"

If one is going to honestly and fairly try to understand the LDS belief about Jesus Christ as the Son of God, they need to sincerely come to grips with the idea that LDS believe there was such an entity as an “intelligence” before there were entities that were created from an intelligence and were made into “spirits” by a loving Heavenly Father who knew those intelligences and their potential.

So with that as a foundational doctrinal premise, then when one considers a simple question such as you asked in your header, then the answer is “no” from the standpoint that the intelligence Who became the Firstborn in the Spirit was already in existence from all eternity before, and was the most supremely gifted, attuned automatically to His Father’s will, and loving Spirit and thus immediately became God the Son, Alpha and Omega.

All this happened long before any other intelligences having to do with this earth became spirits, so from the standpoint of the other spirits and from the standpoint of us living on earth, Jesus is Alpha and is God the Son from all eternity to all eternity given our sphere as spirits and then mortal people.
Click to expand...
Campeador,

I had already done what you have more recently asked, in this post.
 
ParkerD said:
Campeador,

I had already done what you have more recently asked, in this post.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry my friend, but your post is no clarification. It only muddied the waters so to speak. If you would care to explain LDS beliefs using Scripture or other documents, that might help. Otherwise I have no idea what you believe and why. 🙂
 
SteveVH said:
Here is another quote from that same source:

"***In December 2007 the Church issued the following press release on this issue:

Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel.
As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.***"

Notice how they first want to attach themselves to other Christians ("Like other Christians, we believe…") and then go on to contradict the Christian meaning. This is very typical.
Click to expand...
There is a somewhat similar statement in this youtube video…not sure if every one has seen it…i found it very informative:

youtube.com/watch?v=dTtq62XQ4jw
 
campeador said:
Are you trying to derail my thread?! 😛 😉
Click to expand...
Sorry Camp :imsorry:…i did not mean to…the video has something about Jesus, i think at the 2/3 part of it…if it seemed like derailing it…I apoligize wholeheartedly…😊
 
ParkerD said:
Campeador,

We live in a world of language, but that is not a perfect world in terms of people understanding each other. A word can have different meanings for different people. A word can also have different connotations within different contexts.

What do you have in mind by your use of the word “create”?
Click to expand...
No, Parker, words should not have different meanings for different people. It is why we all agree to such things as dictionaries, so that we can actually communicate. The only time a difference in meaning seems to crop up is when a word means something you don’t want it to mean. Just change the definition and head on down the road. It causes nothing but confusion and is the reason that these threads get so strung out. It forces one to travel over the same ground a dozen times without accomplishing anything on either side.
 
campeador said:
I’m sorry my friend, but your post is no clarification. It only muddied the waters so to speak. If you would care to explain LDS beliefs using Scripture or other documents, that might help. Otherwise I have no idea what you believe and why. 🙂
Click to expand...
Campeador,
If you were using the common Catholic connotation of the word “create”, then the answer to your question is “no”.

Here is a scriptural passage that gives background about the pre-mortal life and intelligences organized from spirits:

Abraham 3:18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me.
 
ParkerD said:
Campeador,
If you were using the common Catholic connotation of the word “create”, then the answer to your question is “no”.

Here is a scriptural passage that gives background about the pre-mortal life and intelligences organized from spirits:

Abraham 3:18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.
21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me.
Click to expand...
Am I now supposed to glean the answer from this?
 
pablope said:
Sorry Camp :imsorry:…i did not mean to…the video has something about Jesus, i think at the 2/3 part of it…if it seemed like derailing it…I apoligize wholeheartedly…😊
Click to expand...
I’m just pulling your leg, my friend. No need to apologize. 🙂

And the video you posted was well worth the time. Thanks. 👍
 
campeador said:
Am I now supposed to glean the answer from this?
Click to expand...
Campeador,

The answer was “no”. The scripture gave you context for that answer. I tried to make it simpler before, but you wanted “scripture”, not simple. Now you have it both ways…🙂
 
ParkerD said:
Campeador,

The answer was “no”. The scripture gave you context for that answer. I tried to make it simpler before, but you wanted “scripture”, not simple. Now you have it both ways…🙂
Click to expand...
But then it seems like he created no one because they already existed.
 
zaffiroborant said:
But again, not of us because we always existed.
Click to expand...
Zaffiroborant,
We moved forward from being an intelligence through being organized by Father in Heaven to become a spirit, then we were given mortal life with a physical body through the Creation process that included creating this earth and giving it a purpose for us to be here. That physical Creation process was completed by the Word, Jesus Christ.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top