SteveVH,
I would strongly differ about the example you gave. That was a case where conscience had already been lost by those who had not only been taught against their conscience, but had embraced the false teachings. If they had overcome the false teachings, they could refresh the opportunity of their conscience, the light of Christ, to have guided them toward acts of love and unselfishness. There is such a thing as a conscience being “seared”.
Sometimes I wonder why I even try.
If by the word “saved” you mean “exalted”, then those who progress but aren’t exalted have still improved from where they were at before they began. They are happier, more fulfilled, and will have the happiness and joy they lived for when they are resurrected for eternity, through the atoning grace of Christ gifting them with a degree of salvation they chose.
Choosing Christ and His grace is both a starting point and a continuing choice along the way toward the progress needed for exaltation. I agree that the “Christ in us” increases as we follow Him, and that is sanctification.
No, by
saved I don’t mean exalted, I mean saved. What you have said here is very telling, Parker. Being saved means one thing, that I am going to heaven rather than hell.
And if I make it to heaven it will be because of the mercy of God, not because I have progressed through my own merits.
The only one to be exalted is the Lord, our God. Our posture should be one of complete humility, not one of exalting ourselves. Your statement reminds me very much of the idea behind reincarnation. If you don’t make it the first time, no worries. You’ll get another chance, as many as you need, until you reach the state of divinity.
Your notion of salvation is so foreign to Christianity that it is unrecognizable. I had no idea, until now, how deep in error the Mormon church is on this, the most basic doctrine. We are in need of salvation, not exaltation. It isn’t about us, it is about a God, who loved us so much that He sent His only Son to pay our debt, to suffer and die for us, so that we might spend eternity with Him. It is about the unfathomable love of a merciful God. We are nothing but miserable wretches, yet He loves us and gives us dignity and desires to spend eternity with us as His adopted sons and daughters. It is not about us desiring glory and exaltation for ourselves.
Maybe the “thief” example is a good one. I don’t think he had progressed very much at all, but had evidently reached the “starting point” and then would be able to go on in the spirit world and repent of all his sins, learn from his wrong choices, and show by his faith and continuing belief in Christ what kind of salvation he was going to merit.
He was told, “today shalt thou be with me in Paradise”, but that should have been translated, “today shalt thou be with me in the spirit world”.
And it just gets stranger and stranger. I’ve said enough about the notion of progression. But where in God’s universe do you come up with
"but that should have been translated 'today you will be with me in the spirit world’". Says who? I realize that you would like it to say that but the fact is that is doesn’t. I would love to see your source for this assertion. Help me, oh God.
The New Testament doesn’t say that he was “saved”.
If you are in Paradise, you are saved, trust me on this one.
It has to do with a broader perspective about “salvation”, “progress through making choices,” “gaining wisdom”, and “what it means to have progressed through the grace of Christ to the promised blessing of exaltation.”
So its all up to you. All I have to say is good luck!
