JohnVIII,Perhaps you also believe that every one of us have always existed from all eternity; originally we all existed as “intelligences”. Then heavenly father and heavenly mother gave us spirit bodies. Then earthly father of an earthly mother gave us our physical bodies. We have existed for ever and we will continue to exist forever. (1) So, what salvation did Jesus die to give us? (2) It’s not salvation from hell (IT IS SALVATION FROM HELL FOR THOSE WHO GO THERE FOR THE THOUSAND YEARS DURING WHICH THEY WILL SUFFER THERE; is it salvation from (NOT “FROM”–INSTEAD “TO”) a lesser degree of eternal glory?
Please answer this one question for me: (3) If I committed the sin of first-degree murder, could I be totally forgiven solely by the merits of the death of Jesus Christ on the cross; and in the hereafter go on to the first-degree of the Celestial Kingdom and be a God?
Religio71,ParkerD,
By substance we typically mean what makes God, God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all distinct persons:
"254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.“87”
So, the Catechism is saying that the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. They are distinct persons. They are one in that they are all the same substance. "In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.“85”, “The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire”. So, they are three separate, distinct persons, yet they all are that one substance that makes God, God. One person isn’t more or less of that substance, as they are all co-equal.
We believe we are co-heirs in Christ, sharing in His Resurrection. In salvation we are risen up with Christ, participating in His heavenly life. " 1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live "in Christ,“598 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.599”. We also believe that we will truly behold God, through the beatific vision. Through the beatific vision we will be able to see God in all His glory.
As Catholics, we believe that in Heaven, we live with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with Mary, with all the saints of the Church, and the angels. By living in Christ, we find out our true nature, whatever that may be. (One interesting thing I find in the Catechism is that we “retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name”. This seems vaguely related to the LDS practice of giving one a new name as part of the Endowment, though there are stories of ex members that many people have the same “new name”…still interesting). It is true that life in Heaven is beyond our comprehension, as it is beyond everything that we have experienced on Earth. I don’t believe that we know much about our “activities”, except that we will be living eternally with the Blessed Trinity.Religio71,
I would love to understand what you personally believe will be the living conditions and activities as you “participate in His heavenly life.” I only ask that because I don’t know other than the expression that “it is beyond our comprehension”. Why couldn’t it mean really participate in His heavenly life, by being like Him just as the Apostle John said and like Christ Himself taught?
I still don’t get the concept of “one substance”, unless you mean “one eternal unchangeable Truth–the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” in which case we are agreed on that point.
The Church’s position has always been that its theological foundation rests in the Church’s scriptural canon, which we call the standard works. In those early days churches were more charismatic than they are today, and there were a small group of Church leaders who were prone to speculative thinking on doctrine, which did not have a basis in the standard works. The Pratt brothers, Orson Hyde, and Brigham Young are among those who did engage in speculative thinking on doctrine that was later proved to have been incorrect. But that is because they failed to abide by the teachings of the standard works. If they had stuck to that closely, those doctrinal mistakes would not have been made. In subsequent years there were always a few people who continued that tradition of speculative thinking about doctrine. B H Roberts, James E Talmage, and Bruce R McConkie may be named among the prominent ones. But that has now died out, and Church leaders are much more caution in their teachings to ensure that it conforms to what God has revealed in the scriptural canon of the Church.I may be way off base, but it seems like Mormons today don’t believe in a lot of the stuff that was taught by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith.
Well, we don’t practice it, but the Church has not abandoned its theological validity. We don’t practice it today because it is declared to be against the law of the land; and we are commanded to abide by the law of the land. But it still remains valid as a theological principle.For sure, they don’t believe in polygamy anymore.
Those are good examples of speculative thinking that have no basis in LDS scripture. They are speculations and are not true LDS doctrine.I don’t know for sure, but people with their own planets, and God impregnating Mary seems to be debatable too.
“Mainstream” is not a word I would use. I would say two things have happened. Firstly the Church is better understood today than it was before. A lot of the disinformation spread out by the enemies of the Church has been neutralized, and people understand us better than they did in earlier days. The Church has also grown bigger and more influential, and cannot be so easily misrepresented as it was before. On the other hand, the Church has also been careful to rectify some of the mistakes of the past, and ensure that its teachings are more accurate and conform to what the Lord has revealed.I think they are more mainstream in a lot of thier religious beliefs now, but of course they have beliefs and practices unique to the LDS church. At least that is what I think I am gleaning from these posts.
However, we as Catholics are also supposed to believe in Purgatory, where most of us poor sinners will end up. Somehow, I don’t envision my Mother who recently died as being in Purgatory, but rather in Heaven watching over me. Also, I don’t really think either Catholics or Mormons really know what is going to happen after death. According to the Bible, there’s a disconnect between going to heaven or hell - either at the time of our death, or on Judgement Day. But as humans, we would prefer to think that our loved ones are in Heaven waiting for us to join them when we die.As Catholics, we believe that in Heaven, we live with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with Mary, with all the saints of the Church, and the angels. By living in Christ, we find out our true nature, whatever that may be. (One interesting thing I find in the Catechism is that we “retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name”. This seems vaguely related to the LDS practice of giving one a new name as part of the Endowment, though there are stories of ex members that many people have the same “new name”…still interesting). It is true that life in Heaven is beyond our comprehension, as it is beyond everything that we have experienced on Earth. I don’t believe that we know much about our “activities”, except that we will be living eternally with the Blessed Trinity.
They are of one substance in that they are of one Divine Nature. They are all fully God. The Divine nature is not divided amongst them, as they are all fully that Divine Nature, the Essence.
Yes, many/most of us will go to Purgatory after death, which purifies us to enter into God’s eternal presence in Heaven.However, we as Catholics are also supposed to believe in Purgatory, where most of us poor sinners will end up. Somehow, I don’t envision my Mother who recently died as being in Purgatory, but rather in Heaven watching over me. Also, I don’t really think either Catholics or Mormons really know what is going to happen after death. According to the Bible, there’s a disconnect between going to heaven or hell - either at the time of our death, or on Judgement Day. But as humans, we would prefer to think that our loved ones are in Heaven waiting for us to join them when we die.
Religio71 and Catholic20064,interestingly, the Lectures of Faith used to be Scripture, part of the Doctrine and Covenants. They were then removed.
There is a lot that is wonderful in LDS belief, but too much seems to be contradicted, or seen as a “transcription/editor error”.
Technically, Mormons never canonized the Lectures on Faith. They were included as explanation rather than scripture, but they do give a good summary of what Mormons believed in the mid-1830s.If there is internal consistency then why were they removed as Scripture?
Religio,If there is internal consistency then why were they removed as Scripture?
Christine,However, we as Catholics are also supposed to believe in Purgatory, where most of us poor sinners will end up. Somehow, I don’t envision my Mother who recently died as being in Purgatory, but rather in Heaven watching over me. Also, I don’t really think either Catholics or Mormons really know what is going to happen after death. According to the Bible, there’s a disconnect between going to heaven or hell - either at the time of our death, or on Judgement Day. But as humans, we would prefer to think that our loved ones are in Heaven waiting for us to join them when we die.
this is what the current D&C says about LoF:Religio,
As Catholic20064 noted, the Lectures on Faith were never “cannonized” although at one time they were printed with the Doctrine and Covenants, as I have read though never seen a copy. Nor has the King Follett Discourse been “cannonized.” That’s why I only use those sources when I am challenged about what beliefs are taught in them. I much prefer using the scriptures as sources for understanding what God wants us to know in order to progress in this life.
Majick275,this is what the current D&C says about LoF:
*Beginning with the 1835 edition a series of seven theological lessons was also included; these were titled the “Lectures on Faith.” These had been prepared for use in the School of the Prophets in Kirtland, Ohio, in 1834-1835. Although profitable for doctrine and instruction, these lectures have been omitted from the Doctrine and Covenants since the 1921 edition because they were not given or presented as revelations to the whole Church. *
that i think makes them fair game…as to KFD…numerous LDS “prophets” have confirmed that it’s definitely doctrine.
The sola scriptura approach to mormonism appears to be a poor fit as the main basis of LDS theology is the need for prophets to not only reveal ongoing scripture but to apply existing. LDS scriptures in fact contradict this approach and place the instructions of prophets and apostles on the same level as scripture
Thank you Parker, you are truly a fine good person, and your words are very comforting to me.Christine,
I want you to know that I feel strongly that your mother is in a peaceful, joyful place as a spirit where she does indeed “watch over you” and is solicitous for your welfare. I feel that she has much to be pleased about in watching her daughter. I conclude that my truly felt gratitude for your kindnesses in this forum is miniscule in comparison with her gratitude for your abundant life and for all you do. I feel spiritually “in tune” in telling you these things, as they are impressions I have had and have prayed about today after reading your post.
So in short, I am confident that you are pretty much correct in how you “envision” your mother’s life right now, though there is more to “heaven” than the “paradise” of the spirit world. (My only reason for so saying is to give you a reason to be at peace about whether her situation would be “purgatory”–I feel that the answer is “absolutely not”.)
that pretty much puts you in the mainstream of mormonism with the vast majority of the LDS church members.Majick275,
Thanks for noting the importance the LDS places on modern prophets and apostles and their teachings. I love their teachings, and use them in my life. I also feel more spiritually “in tune” personally when I study the scriptures as well as studying and listening to the words of the modern prophets and apostles. When I talked about “in order to progress in this life,” I meant that for all people everywhere, not just LDS. So if your scripture is just the Bible, then I meant that the Bible is the most important book you should read to progress in this life, and for me and my family, the scriptures you would be familiar with as our “four standard works” are the most important books we should read. But again, I am very grateful for the teachings of the modern prophets and apostles, also.
(I might as well preclude “what about’s” that have already come up many times, by saying that I haven’t agreed with every word attributed to every latter-day prophet or apostle in every piece of writing, by any means.)
I agree that we don’t fully know what Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory will be like. However Mormons do believe that those that are saved and go to spirit Paradise will be spirit missionaries, going to the spirit Prison and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to those souls.However, we as Catholics are also supposed to believe in Purgatory, where most of us poor sinners will end up. Somehow, I don’t envision my Mother who recently died as being in Purgatory, but rather in Heaven watching over me. Also, I don’t really think either Catholics or Mormons really know what is going to happen after death. According to the Bible, there’s a disconnect between going to heaven or hell - either at the time of our death, or on Judgement Day. But as humans, we would prefer to think that our loved ones are in Heaven waiting for us to join them when we die.
Christine and Religio71,I agree that we don’t fully know what Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory will be like. However Mormons do believe that those that are saved and go to spirit Paradise will be spirit missionaries, going to the spirit Prison and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to those souls.
"1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591 "