LDS: Is the name "Nephi" a derivative of "Nephilim"?

[zerinus]

Do Mormons really offer free Bibles? Since when?
Is the LDS Edition of the KJV used when offering Bibles for free?
I’ve always thought they are offering free Book of Mormons.
(At least myself was offered a BoM, and not a Bible.)

Esdra

EDIT: Alright, found it! Here.
Probably I didn’t get a free-Bible, as there is no equivalent to the LDS Version of the KJV in German… (However, the BoM IS of course available in German.)

Yes indeed. We offer free Bibles as well as Books of Mormon; and the Bibles we offer are the LDS editions of KJV, with LDS footnotes, cross-references, JST, and Topical Guide.

 

[MGLechner]

It’s used in the King James Version in the last verse of the first chapter of 2 Maccabees:

etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=Kjv2Mac.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=1&division=div1

That has to be a corruption in the King James Version. For the NAB (New American Bible), NRSV, Jerusalem Bible and the New Jerusalem Bible (These are the translations I have on hand) all render that phrase as: naptha. Which means “loosened” or “unbound.”
The footnote to 2 Maccabees 1.36 in the NAB reads: “By a play on words, the Greek term naptha (petroleum) is assimilated to some Semitic word, perhaps nepthar, meaning ‘loosened.’”

Remember, according to Joseph Smith, the language used in the original plates (according to the story) was a non-existent language called: “Reformed Egyptian!” Below is a Wikipedia link which describes this language.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian#The_Anthon_Transcript

If Joseph Smith did not glean the name “Nephi” from the KJV of the Bible, then I really don’t know where it originated. At one time I thought it was an anglicized form of the Hebrew phrase** נְבִיא** “navi” (i.e., prophet). But I rejected that based on the fact that we have no way of knowing it’s origins since we do not have any manuscripts (or plates in this matter) to study or compare. So, in my opinion, the name “Nephi” is one among many eponymous names that Smith created in the fertile activities of his imagination!

 

[flyonthewall]

That has to be a corruption in the King James Version. For the NAB (New American Bible), NRSV, Jerusalem Bible and the New Jerusalem Bible (These are the translations I have on hand) all render that phrase as: naptha. Which means “loosened” or “unbound.”
The footnote to 2 Maccabees 1.36 in the NAB reads: “By a play on words, the Greek term naptha (petroleum) is assimilated to some Semitic word, perhaps nepthar, meaning ‘loosened.’”

Remember, according to Joseph Smith, the language used in the original plates (according to the story) was a non-existent language called: “Reformed Egyptian!” Below is a Wikipedia link which describes this language.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian#The_Anthon_Transcript

If Joseph Smith did not glean the name “Nephi” from the KJV of the Bible, then I really don’t know where it originated. At one time I thought it was an anglicized form of the Hebrew phrase** נְבִיא** “navi” (i.e., prophet). But I rejected that based on the fact that we have no way of knowing it’s origins since we do not have any manuscripts (or plates in this matter) to study or compare. So, in my opinion, the name “Nephi” is one among many eponymous names that Smith created in the fertile activities of his imagination!

Reformed Egyptian is NOT a language. It is a writing system.
A writing system from one language and used for another, with modification or “reformed”.

 

[SteveVH]

Reformed Egyptian is NOT a language. It is a writing system.
A writing system from one language and used for another, with modification or “reformed”.

What is a writing system?

 

[Jerusha]

Here is one that really opens up a can of worms.

 

[flyonthewall]

What is a writing system?

English uses the english alphabet. The alphabet is the writintg system that English uses.
Chinese use the Chinese characters. The Chinese characters(Kanji) are the writing system the Chinese use.
Japanese uses the Chinese characters(Kanji) but has modified it to fit their language. The “Kanji” characters are the writing system the Japanese use. So you can say that the Japanese use modified or “reformed” Chinese.

Does that make sense?

 

[MGLechner]

Here is one that really opens up a can of worms.

That really doesn’t open up anything. Where are the lexicons, dictionaries, word studies, etc. of Reformed Egyptian? Where is the archaeological evidence? Latin is considered a “dead language” but you can still study it and you can still read it and write it. Demonstrate proof of the existence of Reformed Egyptian anywhere but in the Book of Mormon and then maybe we can talk.

 

[Esdra]

That really doesn’t open up anything. Where are the lexicons, dictionaries, word studies, etc. of Reformed Egyptian? Where is the archaeological evidence? Latin is considered a “dead language” but you can still study it and you can still read it and write it. Demonstrate proof of the existence of Reformed Egyptian anywhere but in the Book of Mormon and then maybe we can talk.

Jerusha wanted to say that “Reformed Egyptian” looks nearly the same as a certain time of short-writing used by monks in the Middle Ages. - So it DOES open up a can of worms.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Hi

Does anyone know the 2nd Book of Esdras?

We have said that JS used the KJV and that in the 19th century the KJV was always printed “with the Apocrypha”. Here you can see that 1st and 2nd Esdras were also part of the KJV Apocrypha (together with the Roman Catholic Deuterocanon). (also compare here.)

And we’ve also said that JS himself wrote that: “Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;” (D&C 91:1)

and
“Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.” (D&C 91:3)

And concerning the name “Nephi” we have discussed that it maybe be copied from 2 Macc 1:36.

Now I have found out that in 2 Esdras Chapter 14 things are written, you could interpret as “Restoration” like Mormons always claim that they did. Especially intersting I find 2 Esd 14:19-48 in this context.

So, to conlclude, I think it’s well probable that JS and his friends used 2 Esdras for “cobbling together” parts of the BoM.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

English uses the english alphabet. The alphabet is the writintg system that English uses.
Chinese use the Chinese characters. The Chinese characters(Kanji) are the writing system the Chinese use.
Japanese uses the Chinese characters(Kanji) but has modified it to fit their language. The “Kanji” characters are the writing system the Japanese use. So you can say that the Japanese use modified or “reformed” Chinese.

Does that make sense?

But why did they use Egyptian and not their own writing system (as they were Jews) which’d be Hebrew?

According to the BoM Lehi and his family NEVER were in Egypt. Or did I miss something here?

Esdra

 

[SteveVH]

English uses the english alphabet. The alphabet is the writintg system that English uses.
Chinese use the Chinese characters. The Chinese characters(Kanji) are the writing system the Chinese use.
Japanese uses the Chinese characters(Kanji) but has modified it to fit their language. The “Kanji” characters are the writing system the Japanese use. So you can say that the Japanese use modified or “reformed” Chinese.

Does that make sense?

No it doesn’t. The alphabet is not English. The same alphabet is used in many languages. I would not call Spanish “reformed” English. But that is really beside the point. Why would an angel require someone to go through those machinations in the first place? Please show me another prophet that had to jumpt through those hoops.

 

[Esdra]

No it doesn’t. The alphabet is not English. The same alphabet is used in many languages. I would not call Spanish “reformed” English. But that is really beside the point. Why would an angel require someone to go through those machinations in the first place? Please show me another prophet that had to jumpt through those hoops.

The Alphabet English is written in is Latin.

I think you could compare Reformed Egyptian rather with Mongolian:
The Mongols had their own writing system. But in the meantime they use mostly as a writing system “reformed cyrillic”.
Which is the cyrillic writing system.

I think this anology’d be better than your own, flyonthewall

 

[SteveVH]

The Alphabet English is written in is Latin.

I think you could compare Reformed Egyptian rather with Mongolian:
The Mongols had their own writing system. But in the meantime they use mostly as a writing system “reformed cyrillic”.
Which is the cyrillic writing system.

I think this anology’d be better than your own, flyonthewall

Thanks Esdra, you’re correct. And you might be able to compare “Reformed Egyptian” with Mongolian if there actually was something called Reformed Egyptian. There is not.

 

[zerinus]

That really doesn’t open up anything. Where are the lexicons, dictionaries, word studies, etc. of Reformed Egyptian? Where is the archaeological evidence? Latin is considered a “dead language” but you can still study it and you can still read it and write it. Demonstrate proof of the existence of Reformed Egyptian anywhere but in the Book of Mormon and then maybe we can talk.

Mormons are under no obligation to “prove” anything to anybody. Religion is a matter of faith. You either believe and accept it, or you don’t. There are many that do, and many that don’t, just like Christianity in general, or any other religion for that matter.

 

[Esdra]

Mormons are under no obligation to “prove” anything to anybody. Religion is a matter of faith. You either believe and accept it, or you don’t. There are many that do, and many that don’t, just like Christianity in general, or any other religion for that matter.

But you have to admit that it’s easier to believe something where you black on white have ancient hand-writings that proove that your religion hasn’t much changed than to know that there were plates where there are texts on in Reformed Egyptian…

Why else should Mormon scholars research for texts in the ancient america?

Esdra

 

[Jerusha]

Actually, this pretty well explains the “Reformed Egyptian” of the Anthon transcript. I’ll give you a hint: there is nothing Egyptian about it.

 

[zerinus]

But why did they use Egyptian and not their own writing system (as they were Jews) which’d be Hebrew?

According to the BoM Lehi and his family NEVER were in Egypt. Or did I miss something here?

Esdra

According to the Book of Mormon, the Brass Plates of Laban was written in Egyptian script, not in Hebrew. That means that it was written with the Egyptian alphabet, not language. The language was Hebrew, but the script used to write it with was Egyptian; and apparently Egyptian was a language that was studied by educated Jews at that time. The Book of Mormon people had become familiar with the Egyptian script (not language) through studying the Brass Plates, and had adapted that script to create a kind of shorthand in order to condense their writings on metal plates, to which they gave the name of “reformed Egyptian,” and that is how the Book of Mormon was written in order to be preserved.

 

[SteveVH]

According to the Book of Mormon, the Brass Plates of Laban was written in Egyptian script, not in Hebrew. That means that it was written with the Egyptian alphabet, not language. The language was Hebrew, but the script used to write it with was Egyptian; and apparently Egyptian was a language that was studied by educated Jews at that time. The Book of Mormon people had become familiar with the Egyptian script (not language) through studying the Brass Plates, and had adapted that script to create a kind of shorthand in order to condense their writings on metal plates, to which they gave the name of “reformed Egyptian,” and that is how the Book of Mormon was written in order to be preserved.

And you buy that?

 

[zerinus]

The Alphabet English is written in is Latin.

Believe it or not, English writing itself is a kind of “reformed Egyptian”. Egyptian is the mother of all written scripts, and the originator of most of them. Try this link.

I think you could compare Reformed Egyptian rather with Mongolian:
The Mongols had their own writing system. But in the meantime they use mostly as a writing system “reformed cyrillic”.
Which is the cyrillic writing system.

I think this anology’d be better than your own, flyonthewall

There is a better comparison. Many modern languages use a writing script that was not indigenous to their languages, but was borrowed from another culture through conquest or other cultural influences. The best example is Arabic. Many Islamic countries today speak their indigenous languages, but write it using the Arabic script, because of the cultural influence of Arabic and Islam among them. These include Iran, Kurdistan, Baluchistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and many others. Many countries adopted the Arabic language itself, not just the script, like Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and many North African countries. But others retained their original native tongues, but adapted the Arabic alphabet for writing it down.

 

[zerinus]

But you have to admit that it’s easier to believe something where you black on white have ancient hand-writings that proove that your religion hasn’t much changed than to know that there were plates where there are texts on in Reformed Egyptian…

Why else should Mormon scholars research for texts in the ancient america?

Esdra

Those kinds of “proofs” never convert anyone. They only way you can really know the Book of Mormon is true is by the testimony of the Holy Ghost.