LDS: Is the name "Nephi" a derivative of "Nephilim"?

[KathleenGee]

The issue was which book I ran across at the LDS store that was calling the Roman Church…this and the Protestant church that…with very descriptive language, its construct basically anti-Catholic and anti-Christian.

A poster came on a thread identifying some of the writings as attributed to Pratt. I read Smith’s intro into the need for the Mormon religion vs ours in his Mormon and Doctrines book.

 

[Esdra]

The issue was which book I ran across at the LDS store that was calling the Roman Church…this and the Protestant church that…with very descriptive language, its construct basically anti-Catholic and anti-Christian.

A poster came on a thread identifying some of the writings as attributed to Pratt. I read Smith’s intro into the need for the Mormon religion vs ours in his Mormon and Doctrines book.

Actually, I find the BoM more “anti-Catholic” than the PGP. Especially considering this List.

But you could be right, as there were some parts in the PGP in former times that were either removed, or put into the D&C in the meantime.

 

[KathleenGee]

When I see a religion’s origins formally and explicitly knocking other religions down and claiming itself as the right one, it is a sign of weakness for me. And it is not working with a full deck.

Wish you could spend time studying the Early Church Fathers more…or study the history of the Sacred Liturgy…or even get a copy of the Documents of the Liturgy from Vatican II. Awesome. Very faith building in the Lord and the depth of worship there is in the Mass that allows us to truly partake in the Divine Life with Christ.

It doesn’t make us as gods. But to go to daily Mass, drawing on the Readings of the Word, partake of the Eucharist, and if one is able to, to do one’s work quietly during the day centered from this experience, and living in God’s presence…

I don’t need anything else. Christ is all. Everything in my life is sanctified and made holy by Him.

 

[zerinus]

Actually, I find the BoM more “anti-Catholic” than the PGP. Especially considering this List.

I am afraid your knowledge of Mormonism and of the Book of Mormon is limited. That is not the correct interpretation of those verses. The Book of Mormon is not anti-Catholic; any more than the New Testament or the Revelation of John is anti-Catholic.

 

[Esdra]

I am afraid your knowledge of Mormonism and of the Book of Mormon is limited. That is not the correct interpretation of those verses. The Book of Mormon is not anti-Catholic; any more than the New Testament or the Revelation of John is anti-Catholic.

Okay, then what is the Great abominable Church? I’ll be listening patiently!

 

[zerinus]

Okay, then what is the Great abominable Church? I’ll be listening patiently!

Okay, if these verses don’t explain it, then nothing else will:

1 Nephi 14:

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me, Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me, Behold, there are save two churches only: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

1 Nephi 14:

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

2 Nephi 10:

16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, [both Catholic and Protestant], shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

How is that a description of the Catholic Church? Your familiarity with RLDS will not assist you in understanding true Mormonism beyond a certain point. You will need to dig deep within the LDS Church to understand the true doctrines of Mormonism.

 

[Esdra]

Okay, if these verses don’t explain it, then nothing else will:

1 Nephi 14:

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me, Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me, Behold, there are save two churches only: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

1 Nephi 14:

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

2 Nephi 10:

16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, [both Catholic and Protestant], shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

How is that a description of the Catholic Church? Your familiarity with RLDS will not assist you in understanding true Mormonism beyond a certain point. You will need to dig deep within the LDS Church to understand the true doctrines of Mormonism.

A SDA will certainly applaud to you and say: “Yes, the RCC is the whore of Babylon” and will come along with some verses from Revelation after reading these verses of the BoM!

Well, actually, I also didn’t believe that the Great abominable Church is the Catholic Church. - People here in CAF said so… And I wanted to have a look what you say.
I believe that the GAC are all those who don’t believe in Christ.

 

[SteveVH]

Okay, if these verses don’t explain it, then nothing else will:

1 Nephi 14:

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me, Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me, Behold, there are save two churches only: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

1 Nephi 14:

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

2 Nephi 10:

16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, [both Catholic and Protestant], shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

How is that a description of the Catholic Church? Your familiarity with RLDS will not assist you in understanding true Mormonism beyond a certain point. You will need to dig deep within the LDS Church to understand the true doctrines of Mormonism.

Just curious. If it is not speaking of the Catholic Church, then of which church is it speaking? And if it is not the Catholic Church then does that imply that the Catholic Church is the true Church? It speaks of only two churches. Which churches?

 

[Jerusha]

Alexander Campbell developed the theology of the apostasy-- with it came an attempt to recreate early Christianity-- with that came “experimental religion” —and with that came the potential for developing the idea of an open canon. Sidney Rigdon was originally one of Campbell’s disciples. Sidney Rigdon went that extra step to an open canon. Sidney Rigdon had a hand in writing the BoM. And with Rigdon’s baggage came the “Harlot Church.”

Now, unless our LDS friends want to “apostatize,” they can only accept 23% of the words (underlined) of the above paragraph. Useless to beat them up for it. It is a firm and well-documented sequence of events. Campbellite theology can be seen in many places in the BoM, but they cannot see it. That is the way it is. They sincerely believe that Rigdon had nothing to do with the LDS church until after the BoM was printed. If they believed anything else, they would be apostates.

Sorry to be repetitive, but some times it is necessary to drive the point home.

 

[KathleenGee]

Pratt did explicitly say the “Roman Church”…what else could it be? There was the 1,000 years of the apostolic, Universal Church up to the Great Schism, but still we had the liturgy…then the Protestant Reformation and Sola Scriptura really split from episcopacy and the sacraments.

Again what I am trying to point out to is the rejection of the apostolic understanding of the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ that has always been with us, there was no Great Apostasy after the death of the Last Apostle who was pointing instead to the Book of Revelations, adn the final chapters giving us an image of the mystical image of the Mass…the same Mass form that has been in general use since even before 150 A.D.

And the construct of the universal faith is that Jesus Christ lived, died and resurrected. We do not exist because part of our construct is anti-some body else or some other religion, which is based on misunderstanding and reactionary and condemning.

The Apostles were given the right and grace to appoint successors, the Church was given the duty to protect us from error, and lead us into Christ, and to nurture our faith, but it did not and does not take the place of God. When we do that, then that is what makes people lose their faith in the Catholic Church…it is a matter of keeping one’s focus on the apostolic faith and keeping its members in their proper perspective…not ends in themselves. Jesus Christ is Alpha and Omega.

The Shepherd never forsakens His sheep.

 

[RebeccaJ]

A little off-topic question to the LDS here:

In the BoM and also in the D&C very often the word “yea” is to be found.

What does it mean? I think it’s not to be found in the KJV, is it?

I have thought it maybe means something like “yeah” - which is a term in youth-culture for “yes”.

Esdra

It is Early Modern English usage, which can mean ‘yes’ or ‘indeed’… usage of it is found in the BoM and D&C, especially with ‘yea verily’. 'Yea verily", again, is an Early Modern English phrase that places an emphasis on what follows it is truly, indeed…

Smith & Co thought that if they wrote their pseudo-scriptures like Shakespeare it would have more credibility.

 

[zerinus]

Just curious. If it is not speaking of the Catholic Church, then of which church is it speaking?

You tell me! You read the above verses more carefully, and tell me if it matches the description of the Catholic Church? And if it doesn’t, what do you think it is referring to?

And if it is not the Catholic Church then does that imply that the Catholic Church is the true Church?

Well, the Catholic Church isn’t the church of the devil, as described in those verses, that is for sure. In one sense, all churches are true churches, in so far as they all profess belief in, and preach Christ. In another sense, there is only one true Church, and that is the one that has proper authority from God to act in His name, and perform valid sacraments; and that is the LDS Church, according to our beliefs.

It speaks of only two churches. Which churches?

You tell me! That question should be easy to answer from the verses cited.

 

[zerinus]

As I was reading through Genesis (Chapter 6) the name “Nephilim” really stuck out in my mind. I really have no idea if these two terms are related, but it sure seems that they could be. Do any of you know the origin of the name “Nephi” ?

Thanks.

Returning to topic, here is an interesting video study of the names mentioned on the Book of Mormon.

 

[SteveVH]

You tell me! You read the above verses more carefully, and tell me if it matches the description of the Catholic Church? And if it doesn’t, what do you think it is referring to?

Well, the Catholic Church isn’t the church of the devil, as described in those verses, that is for sure. In one sense, all churches are true churches, in so far as they all profess belief in, and preach Christ. In another sense, there is only one true Church, and that is the one that has proper authority from God to act in His name, and perform valid sacraments; and that is the LDS Church, according to our beliefs.

I appreciate the fact that you don’t believe the Catholic Church is the church of the devil. Obviously I would disagree that the LDS church is the one, true Church but that’s a topic for another conversation.

You tell me! That question should be easy to answer from the verses cited.

Are you trying to tell me it is speaking of Islam? Not sure I would disagree with you, but I also am not sure that this was the original intent of the statement. I could be wrong. It is just that we get this same thing from other churches as well, especially the restoration churches, so I hope you can understand that we are not being unreasonable in assuming that this is what was meant.

 

[zerinus]

Are you trying to tell me it is speaking of Islam?

Certainly not! It has no more reference to Islam than it has to Catholicism.

 

[SteveVH]

Certainly not! It has no more reference to Islam than it has to Catholicism.

Then please unveil the mystery, zerinus. I guess I’m just slow.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thing is it is weak and dubious for some entity to come out 1800 years later and attempt to override the first one, documented to boot, existing for 1800 years and then say it was fake, whatever it was, but the new one is right.

It shows some loss of the power of Providence.

 

[zerinus]

Then please unveil the mystery, zerinus. I guess I’m just slow.

2 Nephi 10:16 identifies it as “he that fighteth against Zion,” irrespective of their race, creed, sex, or religion. So the question seems to center on what is Zion? I agree that one definition of Zion is Jerusalem, so that looking at it superficially, Islam might fit the bill! But that is as big a mistake as identifying the great and abominable church with the Catholic Church. In our theology Zion has a much deeper and spiritual definition. Zion is defined in LDS scripture as the “pure in heart”. It is another word for God’s true Church and Kingdom on earth.

 

[SteveVH]

2 Nephi 10:16 identifies it as “he that fighteth against Zion,” irrespective of their race, creed, sex, or religion. So the question seems to center on what is Zion? I agree that one definition of Zion is Jerusalem, so that looking at it superficially, Islam might fit the bill! But that is as big a mistake as identifying the great and abominable church with the Catholic Church. In our theology Zion has a much deeper and spiritual definition. Zion is defined in LDS scripture as the “pure in heart”. It is another word for God’s true Church and Kingdom on earth.

A church comprises those in agreement with a unique set of doctrines. This cannot be understood as some loosely held amalgam of people of various and sundry religions as it would conflict with statement itself which clearly states that it is not only a church, but a great church. This explanation sounds more like a modern dodge of an early statement your church wishes was never made. I would never have drawn this conclusion.

 

[zerinus]

A church comprises those in agreement with a unique set of doctrines. This cannot be understood as some loosely held amalgam of people of various and sundry religions as it would conflict with statement itself which clearly states that it is not only a church, but a great church. This explanation sounds more like a modern dodge of an early statement your church wishes was never made. I would never have drawn this conclusion.

D&C 97:

21 Therefore, verily, thus saith the Lord, let Zion rejoice, for this is Zion—THE PURE IN HEART; therefore, let Zion rejoice, while all the wicked shall mourn.

Zion means primarily the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; but is not exclusive to it.