LDS: Is this video accurate for your theology?

[The_Scott]

Dear my LDS friends and those who practice Mormonism,

I came across this youtube video that speaks about your theology on God, Jesus, salvation, and the afterlife.

youtube.com/watch?v=7q6brMrFw0E

I ask you please to ignore the obviously bias talk in the video, and just focus on what they say objectively. Obviously this was made to discredit your beliefs (and in some blunt words, too!) but I don’t want you to focus on that.

Let’s say this video was made without the anti-Mormon sentiment, and was made with an objective, non-biased, educational intent. Would it still reflect what LDS believe are true?

Peace.

P.S.: On a slightly unrelated note, I heard that “Mormon” is a slightly derogatory term, and you guys prefer to be called “Latter Day Saints.” Out of sheer curiosity, why does “Mormon” have a stigma attached to it?

 

[Aelred_Minor]

You can’t touch Mormon Jesus.

 

[Heuchler]

I couldn’t see anything blatantly wrong with it and the video did have their sources. I was definitely surpised by the parts referring to African Americans. So now I’m really interested in seeing the responses.

 

[PaulDupre]

The video is accurate as to what was taught when I was LDS (1975 - 1986) with one exception:

The video says that the LDS teach that Joseph Smith did more for humanity than anyone INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST.

What the LDS really taught was that Joseph Smith did more for humanity than anyone EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST.

The LDS church has recently attempted to distance itself from many of these teachings, especially the one that says that Heavenly Father came to earth and had sex with his spirit daughter the Blessed Virgin Mary to produce Jesus. But when I was LDS, this was freely and proudly taught.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[BartBurk]

The video is accurate as to what was taught when I was LDS (1975 - 1986) with one exception:

The video says that the LDS teach that Joseph Smith did more for humanity than anyone INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST.

What the LDS really taught was that Joseph Smith did more for humanity than anyone EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST.

The LDS church has recently attempted to distance itself from many of these teachings, especially the one that says that Heavenly Father came to earth and had sex with his spirit daughter the Blessed Virgin Mary to produce Jesus. But when I was LDS, this was freely and proudly taught.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

When I was LDS, I can remember being taught that Heavenly Father was literally the physical Father of Jesus. How that occurred was a matter of speculation at the time in our institute class (early 70s). The teacher speculated it might have been some kind of miraculous artificial insemination. The only important thing was that Heavenly Father’s sperm was actually part of the process – how it got there was a mystery.

 

[The_Scott]

The video is accurate as to what was taught when I was LDS (1975 - 1986) with one exception:

The video says that the LDS teach that Joseph Smith did more for humanity than anyone INCLUDING JESUS CHRIST.

What the LDS really taught was that Joseph Smith did more for humanity than anyone EXCEPT JESUS CHRIST.

Thanks Paul!

The point you mentioned above is interesting. They emphasized that portion of the clip (with a deep and dramatic voice, too), so they must have thought it important.

I wonder: Did the video deliberately replace “include” with “except,” to give an even bigger “anti-Mormon” message? Or did they make an honest mistake, either misinterpreting a source document, or misinterpreting the LDS beliefs? Or is there a
“schismatic” (if you will) group that actually believes that Smith is bigger than Jesus?

Peace.

 

[FaithJoy]

Makes for a good sci fi thriller I guess but since it mentions Jesus,video isn’t funny.

 

[tundramom]

I found it to be accurate from what I was taught. Much of that was speculated about in my seminary classes, like who was the Father of god, etc.

I think the quote that Paul corrected was meant to be taken from Joseph Smith’s assertion that he was able to hold his people together when Jesus even couldn’t.

Steph

 

[The_Scott]

I found it to be accurate from what I was taught. Much of that was speculated about in my seminary classes, like who was the Father of god, etc.

I think the quote that Paul corrected was meant to be taken from Joseph Smith’s assertion that he was able to hold his people together when Jesus even couldn’t.

Steph

Hi Steph!

Is it possible to find this quote from Joseph Smith? I’d like to read it in context.

Peace.

 

[alwayswondering]

From what I know and remember…

-When it says that Elohim, through obedience to the LDS church, became the God he is now, that wasn’t true. Mormonism wasn’t around back then, obviously, so Elohim couldn’t have followed that religion to get to the place he got to.
-The endless sex with mother god is controversial within the religion. Some people believe they did have sex to produce spirit children, others aren’t so sure.
-Council meeting…I’m not so sure about. Haven’t heard of that.
-The neutral’s being cursed with black skin…haven’t heard of that.
-Adam and Eve, that part isn’t true. They believe that God (Elohim), Jesus (Jehovah) and an angel…I forgot which angel, I want to say Michael…helped create the Earth altogether and then the angel became Adam.
-The having sex with Mary thing is also controversial. The LDS understand that Mary conceived as a virgin, but how, they believe, is unknown. Some people she had sex with God, but many others believe it was that she conceived by the Holy Ghost and she was automatically impregnated. Again, many Mormons have their own theories on certain matters such as this.
-Jesus having wives…another theory.
-Having children…another theory.
-Standing before JS to be judged, I’ve never heard of.
-JS doing as much as Jesus, is not true. They think he is on the same level as other prophets, such as Moses.

The rest, again from my knowledge from the time I was LDS, is true, or theories.
But the biggest thing within the LDS church is that it’s mostly based on theories. Many people believe this entire video, while others believe similarly but disagree on other parts. The fact of the matter is that you can’t know EXACTLY what happened, because until you die, you won’t know.

 

[HonoraDominum]

I think that, at least when I was growing up LDS, many of the concepts were the same but the wording was different. For example, yes, according to LDS theology God was once a Man, but I never remember hearing anything about “endless Celestial sex” being how the spirits were created before Adam. Also, I remember it being that Lucifer and Christ both put out their proposals for the salvation of man, and when God picked Christ’s plan, Satan did the proverbial “taking my ball and going home” move. I distinctly remember the “white and delightsome” doctrine, and I also remember the controversy when the wording was changed to “pure and delightsome”.

That being said, the ‘Godmakers’ video and book are some of the worst ways to learn anything about the LDS doctrine. Even with the truth in the videos, they are coated in bitter, biased sounds and tones (for example calling Smith a “young treasure seeker … who was known for his tall tales”), and are presented in very antagonistic language. There are plenty of Primary Sources to learn about even the most obscure and bizarre LDS beliefs without having to resort to the half-truths presented in the ‘Godmakers’.

 

[tundramom]

Here’s part of the sermon JS gave:

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel

It is found in the History of the Church vol 6 pages 408 and 409.

Steph

 

[soren1]

Thanks Paul!

The point you mentioned above is interesting. They emphasized that portion of the clip (with a deep and dramatic voice, too), so they must have thought it important.

I wonder: Did the video deliberately replace “include” with “except,” to give an even bigger “anti-Mormon” message? Or did they make an honest mistake, either misinterpreting a source document, or misinterpreting the LDS beliefs? Or is there a
“schismatic” (if you will) group that actually believes that Smith is bigger than Jesus?

Peace.

It’s not a mistake. It’s an accurate account, but it assumes a different interpretation of Mormonism that most if its modern followers would accept. This cartoon was made by man named Ed Decker, who co-wrote a book on Mormonism with Dave Hunt called, “The God-Makers.” As a whole, it is a shabby, poorly argued text that I cannot recommend on any level. It does not begin to do justice to the Mormon religion and is clearly intended not to persuade Mormons, but to foment anti-Mormon sentiment among conservative Evangelicals and fundamentalists. (Dave Hunt wrote a similarly skewed book on Catholicism as well.) To give you a taste of some of the book’s contents, they argue at one point that Mormonism is Satanic becuase the word “mormo” is Chinese for “gates of hell,” in some legend or other.

One LDS apologist, Gilbert Scharffs, wrote a books called “The Truth about ‘The Godmakers,’” in which he lists page-by-page every error her can find in the text. Alas, Scharffs is not always fair to Decker and Hunt either, and his book reads turgidly, but he still winsthe argument hands-down, and points out enough little points of spin thourghout the book to make it pretty clear that authors are doing it intentionally.

HAVING SAID THAT, there actually is a basis for the claim in the video. While it is *not * true that Mormons think Joseph Smiith did more than Jesus, it is true that Joseph Smith claimed to have done so. And the sermon where he does it contains a virtually demonstrative proof that smith was consciously aware of never having had any revelations. It comes at the beginning of a fervent denunciation of the various people who have (correctly) claimed that Smith practiced polygamy. Their persecution, Smith claims, have taught him to be humble, and he begins with a biblical text on humility. But then he goes on to say:

Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

Most critics of Mormonism use this text to demonstrate the evident blasphemy of Joseph’s teachings. To compare oneself or one’s works favorably against Christ’s is evil in any context. I can’t argue with that, but I don’t want it to distract us from noticing something else. Smith is contrasting the success of his church with that of Jesus. That is, he does not attribute to Jesus the growth and continuance of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For if he did, he could not view his Church’s success as a point of contrast, since then Smith own works would indeed also belong to Jesus.

Let us consider what Mormons tell us about the experiences Smith had when he founded the Church. Here is a man who met God and Christ, was commissioned by Jesus to found the Church, and who directed the Church at its founding through written revelations directly from Jesus’s mouth. If any person was in a position to appreciate the centrality of Christ in the Church, it should have been Smith. This is not the kind of mistake that good, honest men make when they get confused, excited, or forgetful. It is the kind of mistake a liar makes when he accidentally says something true that doesn’t fit with the rest of his story.

Mormons don’t have much response to this, but an article sumamrizing their basic replies can be read here. All of it is easily refutable. Its best argument is to empeach the source. alleging inaccuaracy in the Documentary History of the Church. While Mormons do not accept that as an authoratative text for doctrine, nevertheless, its historcial veracity at this point is not really in question.

 

[paulp1002]

-The having sex with Mary thing is also controversial. The LDS understand that Mary conceived as a virgin, but how, they believe, is unknown. Some people she had sex with God, but many others believe it was that she conceived by the Holy Ghost and she was automatically impregnated. Again, many Mormons have their own theories on certain matters such as this.

**Brigham Young said that, **“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood–was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, volume 8, p. 115)

**BY also taught: **“When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50, 51)

**Ezra Taft Benson: **“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father.” (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7; cf. Come unto Christ, p. 4)

**Orson Pratt: **"[God] had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son , …it may be that … He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits (bear his children) in eternity." ('The Seer, p. 158)

**Gospel Principle (1985) teaches: **“Thus, God the Father became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born of a mortal mother and an immortal father.” (p.57)

-Jesus having wives…another theory.

The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was, because he had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed him.

Jedediah M. Grant - Journal of Discourses, Vol 1. ppl 345-346

-Having children…another theory.

It is said that many Apostles taught that Jesus was married and had children, but no “official” documentation has been found. My LDS ex-wife believed he was married and had children, she referenced some Bible verse that she took out of context and I don’t remember which one it was.

-Standing before JS to be judged, I’ve never heard of.

…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—“Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.

Brigham Young October 9, 1859 - Journal of Discourses Vol 7 Page 289

-JS doing as much as Jesus, is not true. They think he is on the same level as other prophets, such as Moses.

“I have more to boast of than any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I”.

Joseph Smith - History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09.

The rest, again from my knowledge from the time I was LDS, is true, or theories.
But the biggest thing within the LDS church is that it’s mostly based on theories. Many people believe this entire video, while others believe similarly but disagree on other parts. The fact of the matter is that you can’t know EXACTLY what happened, because until you die, you won’t know.

I wouldn’t go as far as saying that some of these are “theories.” Many of these points where taught by Church Authorities. Now where they speaking as man or Prophet or Apostle, has yet to be addressed. Some LDS still believe in these and other like plural marriage, while others don’t know or care. My ex-wife told me that she still believes in Plural Marriage (why men can remarry in the temple and women can’t.) She even said that her grand parents moved to Mexico to pratice polygamy when it was outlawed here, because they believe it was taught by the Prophets and the Government shouldn’t be able to take that away.

 

[jam070406]

Wow, was that video bizarre!

 

[KathleenGee]

To respond to Soren’s recent contribution of Smith’s words, he sounds like a charismatic psychopath.

 

[soren1]

From what I know and remember…

-When it says that Elohim, through obedience to the LDS church, became the God he is now, that wasn’t true. Mormonism wasn’t around back then, obviously, so Elohim couldn’t have followed that religion to get to the place he got to.
-The endless sex with mother god is controversial within the religion. Some people believe they did have sex to produce spirit children, others aren’t so sure.
-Council meeting…I’m not so sure about. Haven’t heard of that.
-The neutral’s being cursed with black skin…haven’t heard of that.
-Adam and Eve, that part isn’t true. They believe that God (Elohim), Jesus (Jehovah) and an angel…I forgot which angel, I want to say Michael…helped create the Earth altogether and then the angel became Adam.
-The having sex with Mary thing is also controversial. The LDS understand that Mary conceived as a virgin, but how, they believe, is unknown. Some people she had sex with God, but many others believe it was that she conceived by the Holy Ghost and she was automatically impregnated. Again, many Mormons have their own theories on certain matters such as this.
-Jesus having wives…another theory.
-Having children…another theory.
-Standing before JS to be judged, I’ve never heard of.
-JS doing as much as Jesus, is not true. They think he is on the same level as other prophets, such as Moses.

The rest, again from my knowledge from the time I was LDS, is true, or theories.
But the biggest thing within the LDS church is that it’s mostly based on theories. Many people believe this entire video, while others believe similarly but disagree on other parts. The fact of the matter is that you can’t know EXACTLY what happened, because until you die, you won’t know.

Alwayswondering,

A lot of your responses here turn on the fact that the many (most?) Momrons disagree or consider theoretical many of the claims in the video. That is true.In my earlier response about the Smith doing greater deeds than Jesus, I also pointed out that the claim in the video assumes an interpretation of LDS teaching that is not in vogue.

Nevertheless, there is nothing in the video that lacks a factual basis. The style of the presentation is skewed to make Mormonism looks silly, but there is little in the content that would have been controversial even among Mormons as recently as the late 1970s and (apart from the portion about black people) even much of the 1980s.

It is vital to distinguish between the common beliefs of Mormons and the teachings of the LDS Church proper. To whatever extent a Mormon leader, particularly a prophet or governing body, has endorsed a particular view, then Mormons who reject that view must justify their rejection of it. This is because individual Mormons do not personally define what the Church’s teachings are; that is a prerogative of their leaders. It is not sufficient for a Mormon to simply say, “That was just a theory, a speculation.” Indeed, as I often as I have heard Momrons describe controversial teachings of past leaders as “theories,” I cannot think of a single significant example where that claim is true, and can never withstand comparison with the historical source documents.

To limit myself to one example, the bit about Elohim having sex with Mary may be denied by many indivdual Mormons, but it has been affirmed by every single General Authority who has ever commented on the topic in the Church’s history. (Far from being a 19th Century speculation, there is more discussion of it in 20th LDS literature than in the 19th.) Claims by some leades that Mormons affirm “the virgin birth” are extremely, and I think intentionally, misleading, because Mormon theology has redefined “virgin” as a woman who has never had realtions with a mortal man. That is, Mary is a virgin, because she had relations with an immortal man rather than a mortal one. This equivocation in modern Mormon usage obfuscates the issue and creates a veneer of orthodoxy that even many members don’t see through, and this accounts for why so many of them deny the teaching. Yet this famous image from Mormon Church’s 1972 Family Home Evening manual explains with a pretty clear diagram, just what the leadership of the Mormon Church wanted parents to explain to their children:

 

[smirknoff]

Sore, are you certain that the 1972 family home evening manual was a sex education guide? Because from what I know about Mormons, I don’t think that the intent of either picture was to get kids thinking about sex. It fact, your argument seems very silly.

 

[mwok]

The thought of God the Father “overshadowing” the Virgin Mary sickens me.

 

[soren1]

It has occurred to me since my last post, that by putting up that illustration from a Mormon teaching manual, I have done something superficially similar to what Decker and Hunt do in their film, namely, present a Mormon doctrine through a silly image that makes it look scary and dumb. In order to rectify that, I will explain myself a little more here.

The reason I think that the video we are discussing is bad, and should not be used to explain LDS theology is because it is directed towards promoting fear and ridicule rather than the patient, careful refutation of Mormonism that an authentic Christian apologetics should strive for. The emphasis it places on specifically disturbing aspects of Mormon teaching with out attempting to convey to the viewer how and why Mormon teaching really do convey to LDS believers a sense of purpose and meaning in life, even an avenue of personal transcendence, encourages the audience to make extremely negative judgments of Mormonism without providing a broader view of the subject that is really required for actual dialogue with Mormons.

By contrast, my reason for posting the image above is because it shows the real cultural significance that the Elohim/Mary teching has held within Mormon culture and official teaching. Namely, it is so thoroughly accepted that it has been part of a basic child’s religious instruction - in a widely circulated text. I did not create the image to make Mormonism look funny; they made it themselves. It makes them look funny only in same way that the old Baltimore Catechism makes Catholicism look funny: because it is geared towards children. What matters is not the image itself, but that fact that Elohim’s relations with Mary were deemed suitable even for the instruction of children in Mormonism until only recent years. There is something very essential in the things we teach our own children, and for the same reasons we should take notice of how others teach theirs.

I should also mention that there are plenty of better materials available to learn Mormon theology. To begin with, the Mormon instruction manual, “Gospel Principles” is a good starting point. It gives what we would call a basic catechesis for Mormon doctrine; it is readable, organized, and full of references to scripture, so that a reader can learn what scriptural basis Mormons think they have for their beliefs. While it doesn’t contain any of the juicy stuff about black people and the “virgin” birth, it does communicate the broader theological context within which Mormons approach those topics. Also, there are good books by Catholics on the subject, like Isaiah’s Bennett’s, “Inside Mormonism” and William Taylor’s “Tale of Two Cities: Mormons vs.Catholics.”