LDS: Jesus always God?

[Marie5890]

In asking this question I mean no disrespect to our LDS brothers and sisters. I ask for your forgiveness in advance if I offend anyone. I am just interested in this point of LDS Christology. Here is the question:

When Jesus was born in Bethlehem was He fully God (or a god, whichever you prefer)? By this I mean was He equal in all ways to the Father? Lying in Mary’s arms did He possess infinite wisdom, power, glory, goodness, mercy, and justice, ever to be worshiped and adored, equal to “Heavenly Father” in all things, considering the totality of His person, fully human and fully divine? Was He to be worshiped lying in the manger?

Thank you &
Merry Christmas!

Dcana,

The best way to describe how Jesus is God in relation to the Father is to point to Arianism. Pretty similar to that heresy.

 

[theidler]

First and foremost, in order to write a “BoM II”, I would have to read the entire BoM, first. I seriously doubt that I could ever bring myself to do that. No offense, because I know you think it’s beautiful to read, but with all of the repetitiveness and circular logic, it confuses the heck out of me. It also exasperates me due to it’s errors in theology, while the rest of it, basically, just bores me to tears. It’s torturous enough just to read a page or two without stopping to let my brain-cramps subside and my blood pressure to return to normal. At that rate, it would take me years just to read it all. If I had to use that same form of English to write my version, I think I’d probably just commit myself to the local mental institution, right now.

Verily, and it came to pass that I, theidler, did second the notion thus inscribed upon the heavy, cumbersome plates by Telstar. And I do make mine account thereof, for I, theidler, make it with mine own hand.
For it came to pass that I, theidler, did also find the Book of Mormon exceedingly tiresome to read. For behold, I did make the attempt, having suffered long and hard through the entire book known as 1 Nephi, for the noble sake of learning about other religions. But I, theidler, did find the account exceedingly poorly written, and blatantly pre-fabricated, and so behold, I, theidler, did lay aside the text for a time.
But behold, it came to pass, that I did make several more attempts to read some of the accounts of Helaman, Alma, and others, but found them inciting me to claw mine eyes out; and I know this is true, for I, theidler, hath written this account upon these electronic plates.
And so, it hath come to pass that I, theidler, doth make abridgement of mine account for the sake of the reader, thus shortening the wording - yea, the rambling - due to the length of space thus available to mine account being limited. For behold, if I, theidler, continue to inscribe these words of the gods, I shall find myself running out of sp…

 

[pablope]

Verily, and it came to pass that I, theidler, did second the notion thus inscribed upon the heavy, cumbersome plates by Telstar. And I do make mine account thereof, for I, theidler, make it with mine own hand.
For it came to pass that I, theidler, did also find the Book of Mormon exceedingly tiresome to read. For behold, if I, theidler, continue to inscribe these words of the gods, I shall find myself running out of sp…

What??? You did not get a burning of the bosom…as it came to pass?

 

[theidler]

What??? You did not get a burning of the bosom…as it came to pass?

I just slapped my desk from laughing so hard…
I hope this doesn’t count as being uncharitable, but it’s hard not to have a bit of a sense of humor about this topic…

 

[Jerusha]

I just discovered an old experiment of mine:

Chapter 1
I was born of good parents. My father taught me all he knew. I have suffered much in my life. The Lord has favored me. I know the goodness and mysteries of God. I write what I have experienced. I write in my father’s language. This is the learning of the Jews in the Egyptian language. I know that what I write is true. I write it myself. I do it according to what I know.
My father Lehi lived in Jerusalem all his life. In the beginning of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, there were many prophets, saying that they must repent, or Jerusalem would be destroyed. My father Lehi prayed to the Lord for his people. As he prayed, there was a pillar of fire on a rock before him. He saw and heard. He trembled. He returned to his house in Jerusalem. He lay down on his bed, overcome with the spirit and the things he had seen.
He had a vision. He saw the Heavens open. He saw God sitting on his throne, surrounded with numberless angels singing and praising God. He saw an angel descending from Heaven. He saw this angel shining brighter than the sun at noon. He also saw twelve others following him. They were brighter than the stars in the sky. They came down and went out upon the earth. The first came and stood before my father. He gave him a Book, and told him to read. As he read, he with the spirit of the Lord filled him, and he said, “Woe, and woe to Jerusalem! I have seen your abominations.”
My father read many things about Jerusalem. He read that there would be a destruction of Jerusalem, and many of the inhabitants would die by the sword. Many others would be carried away captive into Babylon. When my father had read and seen these things, he exclaimed to the Lord. “Great and marvelous are your works, O Lord God Almighty! Your throne is high in the Heavens, and the power and goodness, and mercy is on all the inhabitants of the earth. Because you are merciful, you will not allow those who come to you to perish!” In this way, my father praised God. His vision form the Lord filled his heart with joy.
I, Nephi, do not write all that my father has written. He wrote about his visions and dreams. He wrote prophecies. He also wrote what he told his children. I will not write everything. I shorten what my father wrote, on plates I made myself. After I have shortened my father’s record, I will write of my own life.
After the Lord showed marvelous things to my father Lehi about the destruction of Jerusalem, my father went among the people. He began to prophesy and tell them what he had both seen and heard. The Jews did not mock him because of what he told of them. He told them of their wickedness and their abominations. He told them what he saw and heard. He told them what he had read in the Book. It told of the coming of a Messiah, and the redemption of the world. When the Jews heard these things, they were angry with him, just like the prophets of old, whom they had cast out and stoned and killed. They also sought to end his life. I, Nephi will show you of the tender mercies of the Lord over all them whom he chose, because of their faith. He will deliver them from their troubles.

Why did they think they had to write it like they did?

 

[Telstar]

Verily, and it came to pass that I, theidler, did second the notion thus inscribed upon the heavy, cumbersome plates by Telstar. And I do make mine account thereof, for I, theidler, make it with mine own hand.
For it came to pass that I, theidler, did also find the Book of Mormon exceedingly tiresome to read. For behold, I did make the attempt, having suffered long and hard through the entire book known as 1 Nephi, for the noble sake of learning about other religions. But I, theidler, did find the account exceedingly poorly written, and blatantly pre-fabricated, and so behold, I, theidler, did lay aside the text for a time.
But behold, it came to pass, that I did make several more attempts to read some of the accounts of Helaman, Alma, and others, but found them inciting me to claw mine eyes out; and I know this is true, for I, theidler, hath written this account upon these electronic plates.
And so, it hath come to pass that I, theidler, doth make abridgement of mine account for the sake of the reader, thus shortening the wording - yea, the rambling - due to the length of space thus available to mine account being limited. For behold, if I, theidler, continue to inscribe these words of the gods, I shall find myself running out of sp…

OK, this makes me want to at least make an attempt at writing a short story!

Well done!

 

[Telstar]

What??? You did not get a burning of the bosom…as it came to pass?

I’d take a little baking soda & water if I had that problem. “This, too, shall pass.”

 

[ParkerD]

I just discovered an old experiment of mine:

Chapter 1
I was born of good parents. My father taught me all he knew. I have suffered much in my life. The Lord has favored me. I know the goodness and mysteries of God. I write what I have experienced. I write in my father’s language. This is the learning of the Jews in the Egyptian language. I know that what I write is true. I write it myself. I do it according to what I know.
My father Lehi lived in Jerusalem all his life. In the beginning of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, there were many prophets, saying that they must repent, or Jerusalem would be destroyed. My father Lehi prayed to the Lord for his people. As he prayed, there was a pillar of fire on a rock before him. He saw and heard. He trembled. He returned to his house in Jerusalem. He lay down on his bed, overcome with the spirit and the things he had seen.
He had a vision. He saw the Heavens open. He saw God sitting on his throne, surrounded with numberless angels singing and praising God. He saw an angel descending from Heaven. He saw this angel shining brighter than the sun at noon. He also saw twelve others following him. They were brighter than the stars in the sky. They came down and went out upon the earth. The first came and stood before my father. He gave him a Book, and told him to read. As he read, he with the spirit of the Lord filled him, and he said, “Woe, and woe to Jerusalem! I have seen your abominations.”
My father read many things about Jerusalem. He read that there would be a destruction of Jerusalem, and many of the inhabitants would die by the sword. Many others would be carried away captive into Babylon. When my father had read and seen these things, he exclaimed to the Lord. “Great and marvelous are your works, O Lord God Almighty! Your throne is high in the Heavens, and the power and goodness, and mercy is on all the inhabitants of the earth. Because you are merciful, you will not allow those who come to you to perish!” In this way, my father praised God. His vision from the Lord filled his heart with joy.
I, Nephi, do not write all that my father has written. He wrote about his visions and dreams. He wrote prophecies. He also wrote what he told his children. I will not write everything. I shorten what my father wrote, on plates I made myself. After I have shortened my father’s record, I will write of my own life.
After the Lord showed marvelous things to my father Lehi about the destruction of Jerusalem, my father went among the people. He began to prophesy and tell them what he had both seen and heard. The Jews did mock him because of what he told of them. He told them of their wickedness and their abominations. He told them what he saw and heard. He told them what he had read in the Book. It told of the coming of a Messiah, and the redemption of the world. When the Jews heard these things, they were angry with him, just like the prophets of old, whom they had cast out and stoned and killed. They also sought to end his life. I, Nephi will show you of the tender mercies of the Lord over all them whom he chose, because of their faith. He will deliver them from their troubles.

Jerusha,

That was awesome!

Can I have your permission to use this to illustrate to my children, for talking with them about why it might be that the language used in the Book of Mormon is in a more formal “King James Bible”-type of English than simpler phrases such as this example shows? (We wouldn’t be knocking it–it just is a great take-off point to have a pretty meaningful discussion about that subject.)

If you object, I won’t do it. But I still enjoyed reading this.

 

[Jerusha]

Oh-- I have more. Sure, you can use it. There is an easy to read version somewhere-- the woman who wrote it spent a lot of time on it, but it never got approved. So she self- published. I am sure if you do a search you could find it. I didn’t know about it at the time I did mine. It sure helped me understand the book better. She watered down the wierd details, I preserved them.

 

[Telstar]

I just discovered an old experiment of mine:

Chapter 1
I was born of good parents. My father taught me all he knew. I have suffered much in my life. The Lord has favored me. I know the goodness and mysteries of God. I write what I have experienced. I write in my father’s language. This is the learning of the Jews in the Egyptian language. I know that what I write is true. I write it myself. I do it according to what I know.
My father Lehi lived in Jerusalem all his life. In the beginning of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, there were many prophets, saying that they must repent, or Jerusalem would be destroyed. My father Lehi prayed to the Lord for his people. As he prayed, there was a pillar of fire on a rock before him. He saw and heard. He trembled. He returned to his house in Jerusalem. He lay down on his bed, overcome with the spirit and the things he had seen.
He had a vision. He saw the Heavens open. He saw God sitting on his throne, surrounded with numberless angels singing and praising God. He saw an angel descending from Heaven. He saw this angel shining brighter than the sun at noon. He also saw twelve others following him. They were brighter than the stars in the sky. They came down and went out upon the earth. The first came and stood before my father. He gave him a Book, and told him to read. As he read, he with the spirit of the Lord filled him, and he said, “Woe, and woe to Jerusalem! I have seen your abominations.”
My father read many things about Jerusalem. He read that there would be a destruction of Jerusalem, and many of the inhabitants would die by the sword. Many others would be carried away captive into Babylon. When my father had read and seen these things, he exclaimed to the Lord. “Great and marvelous are your works, O Lord God Almighty! Your throne is high in the Heavens, and the power and goodness, and mercy is on all the inhabitants of the earth. Because you are merciful, you will not allow those who come to you to perish!” In this way, my father praised God. His vision form the Lord filled his heart with joy.
I, Nephi, do not write all that my father has written. He wrote about his visions and dreams. He wrote prophecies. He also wrote what he told his children. I will not write everything. I shorten what my father wrote, on plates I made myself. After I have shortened my father’s record, I will write of my own life.
After the Lord showed marvelous things to my father Lehi about the destruction of Jerusalem, my father went among the people. He began to prophesy and tell them what he had both seen and heard. The Jews did not mock him because of what he told of them. He told them of their wickedness and their abominations. He told them what he saw and heard. He told them what he had read in the Book. It told of the coming of a Messiah, and the redemption of the world. When the Jews heard these things, they were angry with him, just like the prophets of old, whom they had cast out and stoned and killed. They also sought to end his life. I, Nephi will show you of the tender mercies of the Lord over all them whom he chose, because of their faith. He will deliver them from their troubles.

Why did they think they had to write it like they did?

Is that an actual “translation” from the story of Nephi, or just your attempt at creating an example of a more readable version of a BoM type of story? It looks like an actual “translation” of the story, without all of the melodramatic doublespeak. I’m guessing the Mormons would probably never attempt to actually do anything like that to the BoM, because it might take too much of the mystery and drama out of the original. The old English adds much more of a dramatic effect and ties it back to the KJV, which gives it more of an ‘air of authenticity’, I suppose.

But, that was a pretty good job, either way.

 

[Jerusha]

Chapter 30 RI
Now, the people of Ammon were established in Jershonland, the Lamanites were driven from the land, and the dead were buried. The dead could not be counted. After the days of fasting, mourning, and prayer there was peace. This was in the sixteenth Judges. The people observed the commandments of the Lord. They were strict, according to the Law of Moses. They were taught to keep the Law of Moses until it would be fulfilled.
In the seventeenth Judges, there was also continual peace.
Towards the end of the seventeenth year, a man came into Zarahemland. He was an Anti-Christ. He began to preach against the prophecies about the coming of Christ. There was no law governing peoples’ beliefs. This was contrary to the commandments of God. Such a law would make people unequal.
For thus said the Scripture “Choose who you will serve today.
If a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege to serve him. If he did not believe in him, there was no law to punish him. If he murdered, robbed, stole, or committed adultery, he was punished. For all this wickedness, they were punished. A man should be punished according to his crimes. There was no law against a man’s belief. A man was punished only for the crimes he had done. All men were on equal ground. This Anti-Christ, named Korihor, could not be punished according to the law for his beliefs.
He began preaching that Christ would not come. He said, “You are bound to a foolish and vain hope. Why do you yoke yourself with such silly things? Why do you look for a Christ? No man can know of any thing which is to come. These prophecies are foolish traditions of your fathers. you they say are handed down by the holy prophets. How do you know that they are true? You cannot know of that which you can see. You cannot know that there will be a Christ. You look forward to see a remission of your sins. It is only the effect of a frenzied mind. This derangement came about because of the traditions of your fathers. These traditions lead you into believing things which are untrue.” He also told them that there would not be atonement for the sins of men. Every man did in his life according to how he planned his actions. Every man prospered according to his genius. Every man conquered according to his strength. Whatever a man does is no crime. He preached in this way, leading the hearts of many away. He caused them to participate in wickedness. He led many men and women to commit whoredoms. He told them that when a man is dead, that is the end. This man went to Jershonland, to preach these things to the Ammonites, who were once Lamanites.
They were wiser than many Nephites. They took him, bound him, and brought him before Ammon, the High Priest of the people. Ammon ordered him to be taken out of Jershonland. He then went to Gideonland, and began to preach to them. There, he did not have much success, either. He was again bound and taken to both the High Priest and Chief Judge over that land.
The High Priest said to him, “Why do you pervert the ways of the Lord? Why do you teach this people that there will be no Christ? Why do you interrupt their rejoicings? Why do you speak against all the prophecies of the holy prophets?”
This High Priest’s name was Giddonah. Korihor said to him, “I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers. I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances laid down by ancient priests. They only wish to usurp power and authority over them. They only wish to keep them in ignorance. They wish to prevent them from lifting up their heads. You only wish to have power over them. I say that this people is a free people. I say they are in bondage. You say that those ancient prophecies are true. I say that you do not know that they are true. You say that your people are guilty of sin, a fallen people, because of the transgression of a parent. I say that a child is not guilty because of its parents. You also say that Christ will come. I say that you do not know that there will be a Christ. You also say that he will be killed for the sins of the world. In this way you lead this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers. You lead them after your own desires. You keep them down, even as it were, in bondage. You only want to glut yourselves with the labors of their hands. You shame them. They fear to look up with boldness. They fear to enjoy their rights and privileges. They fear to make use of what is their own. They fear offending you. You yoke them according to your own desires. You have brought them to believe that traditions, dreams, whims, visions, and pretended mysteries are real. They fear that if they do not do according to your words, they will offend some unknown being. This being has never been seen, is not known, and never has been and never will be known.”

 

[Jerusha]

When the High Priest and the Chief Judge saw the hardness of his heart, they would not make a reply to his words. They saw that he would revile even against God. They had him bound and delivered him into the hands of the officers. They sent him to Zarahemland, to be brought before Alma and the Chief Judge, governor over all the land.
When he was brought before Alma and the Chief Judge, he went on to blaspheme in the same way that he did in Gideonland. He spoke in great swelling words to Alma. He reviled against the priests and teachers. He accused them of leading the people after the silly traditions of their fathers. He accused them of using these teachings to glut in the labors of the people.
Alma said to him, “You know that we do not glut ourselves on the labors of this people. I have labored from the beginning of the reign of Judges. I have worked with my hands for my support. This is despite my travels in the land, to declare the word of God to my people. Despite the labors I have performed in the church, I have never received so much as even one senine for my labor. Neither has any of my brothers, unless in the judgment seat. Then we received compensation for our time, according to the law. We do not receive any thing for our labors in the church. What does it profit us to labor in the church, unless it was to declare the truth? We only wish to rejoice in the joy of our brothers. Why do you say that we preach to this people to get gain? You yourself know that we receive no gain. We only wish to give them the joy of salvation. Do you believe that we deceive this people? ”
Korihor answered him, “Yes.”
Alma said to him, “Do you believe that there is a God?”
he answered, “Nay.”
Alma said to him, “You deny again that there is a God. You also deny the Christ. I know that there is a God, and also that Christ will come. What evidence do you have that there is no God, or that Christ will not come? I say that you have no evidence. It is only your word. I have a testimony that these things are true. You also have a testimony to you that they are true. Will you deny it? Do you believe that these things are true? I know that you believe, but you are possessed with a lying spirit. You have put off the spirit of God, and it has no place in you. The Devil has power over you. He carries you about, that he may destroy the children of God.”
Korihor said to Alma, “Show me a sign, that I may be convinced that there is a God. Show me that he has power. Then, I will be convinced of the truth of your words.”
Alma said to him, “You have had signs enough. Will you tempt your God? You have the testimonies of all your brothers, and prophets. The Scriptures are laid before you. All things say that there is a God. Even the earth, all things on the face of it, its motion, and the planets that move in regular ways, all these things witness that there is a Supreme Creator. Yet, you go about, leading people away, testifying to them there is no God. Will you deny all these witnesses?”
He said, “I will deny, unless you show me a sign.”
Alma said to him, “I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart. You resist the spirit of the truth, and your soul may be destroyed. It is better that your soul be lost, than that you should be the means of taking many souls to destructions, by your lying and flattering words. You will become dumb, and will never open your mouth again. You will not deceive this people any more.”
Korihor said to him, “I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God. I say you do not know that there is a God. Unless you show me a sign, I will not believe.”
Alma said to him, “I will give you a sign. You will be struck dumb, according to my words. I say in the name of God, that you will be struck dumb. You will no more be able to speak.” When Alma said these words, Korihor was struck dumb. He could not talk.
When the Chief Judge saw this, he wrote to Korihor a note, asking him, “Are you convinced of the power of God? You asked Alma to give you a sign. Would you prefer that he put suffering on others, to show you a sign? Will you argue this any more?”
Korihor wrote, “I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak. Nothing, except the power of God could do this to me. I also knew that there was a God. The Devil has deceived me. He appeared to me in the form of an angel, and told me to go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. H taught me what to say. I have taught his words, because they were pleasing to the carnal mind. I taught them, and had success. I began to believe that they were true. Because of this, I resisted the truth, until I brought this curse upon myself.”
When he said this, he begged Alma to pray that the curse might be taken from him. Alma said to him, “If this curse would be taken from you, you would again lead away the hearts of this people. It will be as the Lord wills.” The curse was not taken from Korihor. He was cast out. He went about from house to house, begging for his food.
What had happened to Korihor was immediately published throughout all the land. The proclamation was sent out by the Chief Judge, to all the people in the land. It declared that those who had believed in the words of Korihor must quickly repent, or the same judgments would fall on them.

 

[Jerusha]

They were all convinced of the wickedness of Korihor. They were all converted back to the Lord. This put an end to the teachings of Korihor. Korihor went go about from house to house, begging food for his support. He went among people who had separated themselves from the Nephites. They called themselves Zoramites, and were led by a man whose name was Zoram. As Korihor went among them, he was run upon and trodden down, until he died. In this way, we see the end whoever perverts the ways of the Lord. We see that the Devil will not support his children at the last day. He will quickly drag them to hell.

I think this is one of the saddest stories of the Book of Mormon. :crying: It tells me a lot about Mormon culture. You know, freedom of speech and freedom of the press. The way many Mormons treat those who reject Mormonism is shameful. Look at the ending speech of the first post on this chapter. This is exactly what people leaving Mormonism say. They are condemned for speaking the truth amidst their agnosticiam.

 

[TexanKnight]

They were all convinced of the wickedness of Korihor. They were all converted back to the Lord. This put an end to the teachings of Korihor. Korihor went go about from house to house, begging food for his support. He went among people who had separated themselves from the Nephites. They called themselves Zoramites, and were led by a man whose name was Zoram. As Korihor went among them, he was run upon and trodden down, until he died. In this way, we see the end whoever perverts the ways of the Lord. We see that the Devil will not support his children at the last day. He will quickly drag them to hell.

I think this is one of the saddest stories of the Book of Mormon. :crying: It tells me a lot about Mormon culture. You know, freedom of speech and freedom of the press. The way many Mormons treat those who reject Mormonism is shameful. Look at the ending speech of the first post on this chapter. This is exactly what people leaving Mormonism say. They are condemned for speaking the truth amidst their agnosticiam.

We spend so much time on this. Mormonism is simple.

Joseph was a con man. He was a treasure seeker. He tried several ways to make money and get power. He heard of several people in the area who claimed to have visions of Christ and thought he would take his turn. He had heard about a story about a golden pot hidden in the hills and fashioned his own story about Gold plates. Because he made up his stories, there are several versions of each.

The Jesus story was the first scam that actually worked. He was able to control people. He was able to get people to build him houses, give him money…and eventually give him their wives.

This is really all it is. It is up to us, as Catholics and members of the true Church, to pray for them, help them, say Rosaries for them, and love them.

Someday, they will see the truth as we have.

 

[theidler]

We spend so much time on this. Mormonism is simple.

Joseph was a con man. He was a treasure seeker. He tried several ways to make money and get power. He heard of several people in the area who claimed to have visions of Christ and thought he would take his turn. He had heard about a story about a golden pot hidden in the hills and fashioned his own story about Gold plates. Because he made up his stories, there are several versions of each.

The Jesus story was the first scam that actually worked. He was able to control people. He was able to get people to build him houses, give him money…and eventually give him their wives.

This is really all it is. It is up to us, as Catholics and members of the true Church, to pray for them, help them, say Rosaries for them, and love them.

Someday, they will see the truth as we have.

Amen my friend. Amen.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Tonight on ‘THE JOURNEY HOME’ with Marcus Grodi Guest was former RLDS gentleman who has been a Catholic for 20 years now

WATCH this program. Very interesting, nothing new for me really but very worthwhile and informative about the RLDS and the LDS. Show will repeat 10pm Pacific and throughout the week on EWTN - Eternal Word Television Network

 

[Telstar]

Wow, that really is a sad story, not just because of the story about this so-called “AntiChrist” itself, but because most of it is so utterly nonsensical. I also have no words for the absurdity of the names of the people, much less the towns. Even without the old English, this story makes no sense to me, at all. Theologically, it would be absolutely laughable if it wasn’t such a sad depiction of what seems to be some form of church ‘justice’, supposedly sanctioned by God. :ehh:

Is that really a chapter from the BoM, or is it one of your own fictions?

 

[theidler]

I love the Mormons for their charity and their sincerity. But as far as theology and doctrine, Mormonism makes about as much sense as Chuck Norris starring in the sequel to the English Patient.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well some of you have shown that you can create stories on par with Joseph Smith’s.

And there was no angel directing you.

 

[theidler]

Well some of you have shown that you can create stories on par with Joseph Smith’s.

And there was no angel directing you.

And it came to pass that KathleenGee didst see the fact, with her own eyes, that the Book of Mormon could easily be replicated by any with even the most rudimentary writing skills - yea, and I, theidler, hath proven it to be so, for I hath written the account with mine own hand and made an abridgement thereof, before dictating it to a friend whilst I dictate the words of the lord by peering into a hat at the stones used by necromancers of old. Yea, and I, theidler do make mine account here and I do testify to the truthfulness thereof, for I, theidler, do write the account with mine own hands. Yea, and the gods cometh to judge the quick and the dead according to mine account.