LDS: Jesus always God?

[Telstar]

I think I might have to go and find a couple of daggers to pierce my eyeballs, to match the wounding of my delicate mind, after reading all that. uch:

Miriam, I had the exact same reaction to reading the first couple of lines of that ‘psalm’. Change a few words here and there, add a few that are more in keeping with your own beliefs, then mix in a few more dramatic phrases and, voila! It’s a whole new psalm!

I must say, that Mosiah was one amazingly accurate prophet! He saw almost everything about Jesus in the most minute detail, that none of the prophets of the Old Testament ever saw! Wow! Not bad, considering he supposedly lived around 123 BC.

I have to wonder why God never gave any of those amazing prophecies to the Jews that were still living back in the middle east, though. They might not have had such a hard time recognizing Him if they knew everything Mosiah knew, including His name and His mother’s name. It would have been a no-brainer for the Jews to figure out with all that detail.

 

[theidler]

I don’t know, but I’m beginning to think that point out the blatant errors in Mormonism to a Mormon is like trying to catch a greased Scotsman…or something like that - very frustrating:doh2:. The acrobatics and dodging on display here is mind-blowing.:nunchuk:

 

[PaulDupre]

The Book of Mormon prophet Lehi even talks about Joseph Smith (2 Nephi 3). And they knew his father’s name was also Joseph! Freakin’ amazing!

You’d almost think Joseph Smith wrote it himself…

 

[theidler]

The Book of Mormon prophet Lehi even talks about Joseph Smith (2 Nephi 3). And they knew his father’s name was also Joseph! Freakin’ amazing!

You’d almost think Joseph Smith wrote it himself…

thunderous burst of laughter that made my cat Oscar jump a little on the bed

 

[Telstar]

Parker, I have a question about this line:8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
It almost seems to me that this line is saying that Jesus is the Father. Am I reading this wrong, or what? Can you tell me what it means if that’s not the case?

 

[Crdl2Grv]

I don’t know, but I’m beginning to think that point out the blatant errors in Mormonism to a Mormon is like trying to catch a greased Scotsman…or something like that - very frustrating:doh2:. The acrobatics and dodging on display here is mind-blowing.:nunchuk:

You’ll get used to it. After a while you’ll even start being able to predict some of the responses.

I’ve actually thought about doing just that a good number of times - that is, to begin a post with, “Here’s exactly what (INSERT LDS POSTER HERE) will say:” and then write out my best guess as to exactly which words they’ll redefine and how they’ll redefine them, which verses they’ll pluck out of context and how they’ll misinterpret them, which historically inaccurate excuse they’ll use to justify something, etc. But I just can’t bring myself to do it. Seems a little too jerky, even for me.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

The Book of Mormon prophet Lehi even talks about Joseph Smith (2 Nephi 3). And they knew his father’s name was also Joseph! Freakin’ amazing!

No way. Seriously? It seriously says that? Come on.

Don’t get my hopes up, because sounds just too deliciously awesome to be true.

 

[theidler]

No way. Seriously? It seriously says that? Come on.

Don’t get my hopes up, because sounds just too deliciously awesome to be true.

Yes, it seriously does.

See here: lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/3?lang=eng

 

[theidler]

The Tenth Article of Faith is fairly bizarre as well:
“We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.”

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I have a question about this line:8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
It almost seems to me that this line is saying that Jesus is the Father. Am I reading this wrong, or what? Can you tell me what it means if that’s not the case?

Telstar,

“Father” in that verse means “Creator”.

In Hebrew and in some other languages, it is very common for the speaker to use one word and then use another word that captures the same meaning as the first word.

So Jesus is the Father of heaven and earth, because as the Apostle John testified, He is the Creator of heaven and earth.

 

[PaulDupre]

No way. Seriously? It seriously says that? Come on.

Don’t get my hopes up, because sounds just too deliciously awesome to be true.

Really, no kidding. In fact, here is a passage from the LDS seminary student manual about 2 Nephi 3:

2Nephi 3:6–18 —The Latter-day Josephs
The ancient prophecy of Joseph referred to a latter-day Joseph who would be a great prophet and a blessing both to Lehi’s descendants and to the whole house of Israel. The prophecy said that this latter-day Joseph would also have a father named Joseph. This latter-day prophet is the Prophet Joseph Smith. Thus, there are four different Josephs spoken of in 2Nephi 3 : Joseph of Egypt; Lehi’s son Joseph; the Prophet Joseph Smith; and Joseph Smith Sr., who was the Prophet Joseph Smith’s father.

To quote the terminator, “I have detailed files”.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[theidler]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD View Post
theidler,

All the passages you quoted from are narrative passages. One who is evaluating the “style” and evidence of style differences would look at the styles of speakers as they speak, rather than at a narration. The chapters I had suggested you look at in the earlier conversation about this, were about men who were speaking from their heart or were writing in an “emotion voice” from their heart, not giving a narration about history."​

I’m going to post what I wrote again in case Parker might have missed it:

Interesting - “On closer inspection, however,** the Book of Mormon turns to be entirely narrative. The whole book takes the form of a story told by narrators**, who may insert previously written records or documents into their account to make particular points…”
-Meridian Magazine, source here

 

[Telstar]

Yes, it seriously does.

See here: lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/3?lang=eng

OK, that’s it. I’m convinced. Where do I sign up to get Baptized? :bowdown:

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Yes, it seriously does.

See here: lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/3?lang=eng

If anyone needs me, I’ll be at my desk, holding my head in my hands and shaking it in disbelief for about the next hour.

 

[Telstar]

Telstar,

“Father” in that verse means “Creator”.

In Hebrew and in some other languages, it is very common for the speaker to use one word and then use another word that captures the same meaning as the first word.

So Jesus is the Father of heaven and earth, because as the Apostle John testified, He is the Creator of heaven and earth.

OK… if that’s how you want to look at it. I wouldn’t, but that’s probably only because I haven’t been taught all of the ways LDS redefine sentence structure. Is there a manual somewhere that teaches Mormon English, including both grammar and vocabulary, that I could use for future reference? I feel like I’m trying to read Greek, but I don’t understand a word of it. It just doesn’t seem to follow the English rules I learned in school.

 

[pablope]

theidler,

Here is one more example, using the words delivered in a speech by King Benjamin to his people but quoting an angel who had visited him with this message (so the words are the words of the angel, quoted by King Benjamin):

Mosiah 3:
5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

When I get time later tonight, I’ll explore verse 19 above as to comparisons in literary usage, with the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

Well, from what we know of angels from the Bible…they spoke very little words…said their message…and were gone.

It looks like the angel that visited King Benjamin was of a different mold…able to compose a poem…almost…and was very talkative…from the looks of message…

 

[pablope]

Good grief…I give up Parker. heavy, exasperated sigh

Now you know why you need to light a candle for Parker…I do not know and am no judge…but from I can see…he is close to committing a blasphemy of the HS…which we should pray for that comes to do a self examination of conscience…

 

[pablope]

theidler,

Here is one more example, using the words delivered in a speech by King Benjamin to his people but quoting an angel who had visited him with this message (so the words are the words of the angel, quoted by King Benjamin):

Mosiah 3:

8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

.

Well, this thought just came to me…how could this angel call Jesus the “Christ”…and the angel Gabriel in Luke 1…omit “Christ”… 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.

And all the OT prophesies do not call Jesus the “Christ”? Nor give the name Jesus…but referred or used the name Emmanuel?

(godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html)

As shown in Luke 1, the actual name was given by Gabriel.

Unless, the person who wrote the BOM was already used to referring to Jesus as the Christ…and used to saying “Jesus Christ”?

Jesus was not believed to be the Messiah till after his crucifixion and resurrection, which was the proof to all that he was indeed the Son of God and therefore, the prophesied Messiah.

Anyway, the meaning of Christ is Messiah…

*Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning “the anointed one”.[3] It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. In popular modern usage—even within secular circles—the term usually refers explicitly to Jesus of Nazareth.

The word is used as a title, hence its common reciprocal use Christ Jesus, meaning “The Messiah Jesus”. Followers of Jesus became known as Christians (as in Acts 11:26) because they believed Jesus to be the Christ, or Christos, or Christian Messiah, prophesied in the Old Testament - therefore they often call him Jesus Christ, meaning Jesus is the Christos.*

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

So Christ was added to Jesus’ name only in the NT…therefor…Jesus Christ.

How could king Benjamin then come up with a greek word? That won’t be used to refer to Jesus till after his resurrection?

Unless, the writer of the BOM, was already used to saying Jesus Christ without bothering to check for the error?

more… Just the ramblings of my analytical and inquisitive mind.

I wonder how Parker will explain this one away.

 

[ParkerD]

OK… if that’s how you want to look at it. I wouldn’t, but that’s probably only because I haven’t been taught all of the ways LDS redefine sentence structure. Is there a manual somewhere that teaches Mormon English, including both grammar and vocabulary, that I could use for future reference? I feel like I’m trying to read Greek, but I don’t understand a word of it. It just doesn’t seem to follow the English rules I learned in school.

Telstar,

It might help to learn patterns of Hebrew poetry.

As far as the word “father”, that word is used as a synonym for “creator” or “inventor” or “founder” or “benefactor” in common English usage–and that would mean it came from another language (Anglo Saxon) into English with one or more of those kinds of meanings.

 

[ParkerD]

Well, this thought just came to me…how could this angel call Jesus the “Christ”…and the angel Gabriel in Luke 1…omit “Christ”… 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.

And all the OT prophesies do not call Jesus the “Christ”? Nor give the name Jesus…but referred or used the name Emmanuel?

(godandscience.org/apologetics/prophchr.html)

As shown in Luke 1, the actual name was given by Gabriel.

Unless, the person who wrote the BOM was already used to referring to Jesus as the Christ…and used to saying “Jesus Christ”?

Jesus was not believed to be the Messiah till after his crucifixion and resurrection, which was the proof to all that he was indeed the Son of God and therefore, the prophesied Messiah.

Anyway, the meaning of Christ is Messiah…

*Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning “the anointed one”.[3] It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. In popular modern usage—even within secular circles—the term usually refers explicitly to Jesus of Nazareth.

The word is used as a title, hence its common reciprocal use Christ Jesus, meaning “The Messiah Jesus”. Followers of Jesus became known as Christians (as in Acts 11:26) because they believed Jesus to be the Christ, or Christos, or Christian Messiah, prophesied in the Old Testament - therefore they often call him Jesus Christ, meaning Jesus is the Christos.*

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

So Christ was added to Jesus’ name only in the NT…therefor…Jesus Christ.

How could king Benjamin then come up with a greek word? That won’t be used to refer to Jesus till after his resurrection?

Unless, the writer of the BOM, was already used to saying Jesus Christ without bothering to check for the error?

more… Just the ramblings of my analytical and inquisitive mind.

I wonder how Parker will explain this one away.

Pablope,

It doesn’t need to be explained.

The Nephites had the writings of Isaiah with them, and angels knew what “Christ” meant.

Isaiah 61:1 is a prophecy about the “anointed one”. As you noted, that means that the word “Christ” and the words “anointed one” are saying the same thing, for one who knows of Isaiah 61:1 and what that prophecy was about.

When Peter said “thou art the Christ”, then he knew that he was saying that Jesus was He who had been prophesied to come to earth as “the Anointed One”, or in other words, to fulfill Isaiah 61:1-3.