LDS: Jesus always God?

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Wow - this thread just died…it seems our LDS friends have beaten a hasty retreat, methinks. Maybe that article of Kathleen’s really got them thinking.:confused:
theidler,

You might keep in mind that if the conversation doesn’t seem worthwhile for readers, then I for one leave it alone.

As far as the article, it’s fine–he writes well, which was nice.🙂

He was one over by Thomas Aquinas, but I’m won over by the Bible and its teachings, by the Holy Ghost and the revelation He gives of knowing the Savior–that He is indeed the promised Christ, truly God with us–and by the joy and peace in my life and in the lives of all the people I know well.

So, to each their own, and best wishes to you as you find your hopes and dreams come true in your life.🙂
 
The Mormons cannot refute the truth. They cannot lead us away from the truth.
 
Obviously I wish the same best wishes to you Parker. That goes without saying friend.🙂

But your “refutation” of the article as simply someone following Aquinas (incidentally, a master of Scripture and theology, and a man whose only desire was Christ) over the Bible is a little too dismissive for me. You read the same (well, nearly the same) Bible as we orthodox Christians do, and yet you follow a Church that teaches a history that has no basis in any kind of solid fact, no basis in the Scriptures other than what LDS apologists can twist to suit there uses, no basis in any kind of tradition in the least…it’s simply not there.
For pete’s sake, your biggest university (Brigham Young University) is named after a man who had over fifty wives, held that people lived on the moon and the sun, and a man who uttered statements such as this:
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so” (Journal of Discourses, 10:109, March 8, 1863).
Your sacred scriptures proclaim this:
“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.” (2 Nephi 5:21)
I do not find this in the real sacred Scripture. I do not find any evidence that God was simply once a man, and that we all become little gods. Mormon apologists mine our saints and church fathers for support of your doctrines of exaltation and godhood, and yet hold these very saints and church fathers as apostates, members of a church that is considered as an abomination by your church. And as far as I’m concerned, the Book of Mormon is so blatantly the work of one author, that if it were any more obvious, it would be a mammoth in the living room wearing a lampshade for a bonnet and reciting Cicero’s Philippics from memory - for goodness’ sake Parker, Smith’s “revelations” in the D+C sound exactly the same as the entire Book of Mormon. That, and the whole circus over Egyptian funeral scrolls supposedly being written by Abraham that essentially rips off the Genesis creation accounts and inserts “the gods” all over the place…
If Mormons stopped trying to be labeled as Christian, then that would be a different story. Mormonism would simply be another religion. But when you say you worship Jesus Christ, you are saying “I worship a god who was once human and became a god, who was the son of a god who was also once a human, and on and on…”, whereas Christians say we worship Jesus Christ as Lord, God, and Savior, one with the Father and the Spirit, eternal and without beginning. Mormons can’t even explain the eternal regression of gods and humans becoming gods.
I’m sorry Parker - well meaning as you may be - Mormonism is not the same thing as Christianity, not by a long shot. Mormons wishing to be recognized as Christians is kind of like if Christians started complaining that they weren’t recognized as Muslims or Wiccans.
I can give credit where credit is due - most religions have some truth in them, I have no doubt of it. Even the Book of Mormon has admirable teachings in it (though this is probably due to its ripping off sections word-for-word from the Bible). The faith of Mormons is inspiring at times, and their charity is often unmatched. But for goodness’ sake Parker, Mormonism is similar to Christianity in terms and figures used only…you must somehow see this on some level.
 
theidler,

Here is one more example, using the words delivered in a speech by King Benjamin to his people but quoting an angel who had visited him with this message (so the words are the words of the angel, quoted by King Benjamin):

Mosiah 3:
5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity,

** 8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.**
.
Well, looking at this passage again provided by Parker…I thought this is another indication of an inept angel, or an inept god, or an inept translator. Here goes my inquisitive thoughts…

Looking at all the OT prophesies of the Messiah, not once did these mention the name of the Messiah (Jesus) nor mention the name of the parents or mother. Well, this is for obvious reasons…read on…

Well, here comes King Benjamin, suppossedly quoting an angel with the name and the mother.

With the revelation of the name and the mother…what is stopping any family from naming their daughters Mary, and her son Jesus…multiply this by the number of families…and you have an infinite number of Marys and an infinite number of Jesus.

And then you have all the kings and princes, and every male seeking women named mary and seeking to marry them…and naming their sons Jesus…you could have men fighting over women named Mary…:eek::eek::eek:

This angel just opened a can of worms…or multitude problems…

I mean…there would be mass confusion, isn’t it?

And besides…the Jews had a different expectation of the Messiah…they expected the messiah to be some kind of military leader who will lead a jewish army to defeat the Romans.
 
Is it because your attempts to divert, to explain away, are not making any headway here?
No, it’s because when I make a point the above is the kind of response. It becomes a pointless conversation. Of course the way I see things is not the way others who have their own traditions and beliefs that hold their whole basis for thinking the way they do, see things–therefore any point I make that presents a different point of view is going to appear to be a “diversion” because of a completely different perspective.

That’s just the way life is. It becomes refreshing when someone attempts to see another point of view, and those are the conversations I have enjoyed on this forum.😉
 
Obviously I wish the same best wishes to you Parker. That goes without saying friend.🙂
Thanks. Your post seemed to indicate a perception that Latter-day Saints have some misgiving about not being described using the word “Christian” by some people. I have not the slightest misgiving about that. It just means the person on the other end has an unfamiliarity with the New Testament and its teachings about what it means to really be a Christian. So we get used to that–that’s life.😉

(I realize their definition encompasses more than the New Testament description, which is fine with me. Again, that’s life–to each their own.)

Thanks again for the best wishes.
 
theidler,

Here is one more example, using the words delivered in a speech by King Benjamin to his people but quoting an angel who had visited him with this message (so the words are the words of the angel, quoted by King Benjamin):

Mosiah 3:
5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay,

8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
.
Well, just extending my thoughts from post 270…on the use of the greek word “Christus” in a supposedly hebrew manuscript.

On the use of the word Mary, as shown in the passage provided by Parker…

The English name “Mary” comes from the Greek Μαρία, which is a shortened form of Μαριάμ. The New Testament name was based on her original Hebrew name מִרְיָם or Miryam. Both Μαρία and Μαριάμ appear in the New Testament.[11]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus

Now why would an angel be using Mary instead of Miryam…in providing the name of the mother of the messiah to King Ben?

Is this another sign of an inept translator with obviously confused peeping stones…that could not distinguish the hebrew version of the name from the English version?

How could the angel miss such an important detail?

Another indication of an inept angel, isn’t it?
 
Mormons can’t even explain the eternal regression of gods and humans becoming gods.
It’s not that they can’t explain it, it’s that they won’t explain it to anyone until they deem that person “ready” to hear “the truth.”

After a while, though, it becomes oddly delightful to watch them dance around the subject: Jesus was exactly like HF, except that he wasn’t, except that he was, except that he wasn’t, except that he was, except that he wasn’t and who really even cares about this anyway, I don’t, LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-I-can’t-hear-you and Aristotle is hiding under every Catholic’s bed, waiting to steal their critical thinking skills while they’re sleeping.
 
Well, just extending my thoughts from post 270…on the use of the greek word “Christus” in a supposedly hebrew manuscript.

On the use of the word Mary, as shown in the passage provided by Parker…

The English name “Mary” comes from the Greek Μαρία, which is a shortened form of Μαριάμ. The New Testament name was based on her original Hebrew name מִרְיָם or Miryam. Both Μαρία and Μαριάμ appear in the New Testament.[11]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus

Now why would an angel be using Mary instead of Miryam…in providing the name of the mother of the messiah to King Ben?

Is this another sign of an inept translator with obviously confused peeping stones…that could not distinguish the hebrew version of the name from the English version?

How could the angel miss such an important detail?

Another indication of an inept angel, isn’t it?
From what I can glean from Parker’s previous post, I don’t think he wants to debate anymore. It seems to be a fruitless debate though - it’s exhausting bringing up all these objections against Mormon theology and doctrine when they are just ignored.
 
It’s not that they can’t explain it, it’s that they won’t explain it to anyone until they deem that person “ready” to hear “the truth.”
I’m all ears:thumbsup:, I’d love to hear a logical explanation for something like that. Obviously I won’t agree with it, but I wouldn’t mind hearing even one logical argument in support of that aspect of Mormon theology.
 
Pablope,

God is really and truly omniscient, and He can give knowledge to angels at any time and in any place. He knows the future, at all times, and this has always been so.

The Book of Mormon translation occurred in 1829-30, using the English language as of 1829.

Any perception that a translator couldn’t find the best word in 1829 for describing what was being described, rather than attempt to use a word from 92 BC, is an incorrect perception as far as the Book of Mormon, but perhaps there is some translation of some ancient language somewhere that attempts to use the Latin words or the Greek words or the Hebrew words from the 92 BC time period as the original language being translated from–but that is not the case with the Book of Mormon. Latter-day Saints are very familiar with these concepts. It’s just not a big deal;)
 
From what I can glean from Parker’s previous post, I don’t think he wants to debate anymore. It seems to be a fruitless debate though - it’s exhausting bringing up all these objections against Mormon theology and doctrine when they are just ignored.
theidler,

I have responded during the course of my participation in this forum, to all the things you brought up. I am not responsible that someone was not reading at the time, nor am I responsible to answer again. I did it once–more than once for many subjects–and that was enough for me. What I have tried to do is participate when it has been a somewhat new topic or sub-topic that was being discussed. That way I don’t have to feel like I’m in a continually revolving door.

Peace to you and all readers.
 
theidler,

I have responded during the course of my participation in this forum, to all the things you brought up. I am not responsible that someone was not reading at the time, nor am I responsible to answer again. I did it once–more than once for many subjects–and that was enough for me. What I have tried to do is participate when it has been a somewhat new topic or sub-topic that was being discussed. That way I don’t have to feel like I’m in a continually revolving door.

Peace to you and all readers.
Fair enough, but I am obviously not going to know that. 🤷 Can you direct me to where you dealt with issues of racism within the early LDS movement, and what caused it to be rescinded in 1978?
 
I’m all ears:thumbsup:, I’d love to hear a logical explanation for something like that. Obviously I won’t agree with it, but I wouldn’t mind hearing even one logical argument in support of that aspect of Mormon theology.
You only want logical explanations because Aristotle is reaching up into Thomas Aquinas, who has his hand in the back of your head and is manipulating your thoughts like a ventriloquist.

Don’t deny it, dude. Everyone knows it’s true about each and every one of us Catholics.

There are only two possibilities regarding the LDS conception of Godhood. Either…
  1. “Heavenly Father” was dependent upon another being (“Heavenly Grandfather?”) when HF was on “an earth.” HF was, is and will always be eternally dependent upon that being, in the same way that Jesus was, is and always will be eternally dependent upon HF, in the same way that we were, are and always will be eternally dependent upon HF. I think it’s pretty clear from Paul Dupre’s links and Parker’s fingers-in-the-ears routine and this is LDS doctrine. (At least for now… there’s a strong chance it will change in the near future.)
  2. “Heavenly Father” was never dependent upon another being when he was on “an earth.” Therefore, mankind is similarly capable of becoming a completely independent god ruling over his own universe. I don’t think this was ever really LDS theology - they’d say, “Well, we’ll never be completely independent because we’ll all “share” in HF/Christ’s “perfection” in the Celestial Kingdom.” Or something.
So it’s option #1. It’s clearly option #1. But they’ll never, ever come out and say that (well, not anymore, at least) because it means that the god they worship is not the omnipotent Creator of the Universe, the Alpha and the Omega of the Bible and orthodox Christian tradition.

As I said before, they know it. We know it. We know they know it. And they know we know they know it. But for some reason they can’t be honest about it, at least not in public.
 
Fair enough, but I am obviously not going to know that. 🤷 Can you direct me to where you dealt with issues of racism within the early LDS movement, and what caused it to be rescinded in 1978?
I’ll save you a lot of link-clicking and searching:

That was never LDS doctrine. But if it was LDS doctrine, God changed his mind at some point.
 
Crdl2Grv,
There are only two possibilities regarding the LDS conception of Godhood. Either…
Brilliant summation! 👍

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
You only want logical explanations because Aristotle is reaching up into Thomas Aquinas who has his hand in the back of your head and is manipulating your thoughts like a ventriloquist.

Don’t deny, dude. Everyone knows it’s true about each and every one of us Catholics.

There are only two possibilities regarding the LDS conception of Godhood. Either…
  1. “Heavenly Father” was dependent upon another being (“Heavenly Grandfather?”) when HF was on “an earth.” HF was, is and will always be eternally dependent upon that being, in the same way that Jesus was, is and always will be eternally dependent upon HF, in the same way that we were, are and always will be eternally dependent upon HF. I think it’s pretty clear from the Paul Dupre’s links and Parker’s fingers-in-the-ears routine and this is LDS doctrine. (At least for now… there’s a strong chance it will change in the near future.)
  2. “Heavenly Father” was never dependent upon another being when he was on “an earth.” Therefore, mankind is similarly capable of becoming a completely independent god ruling over his own universe. I don’t think this was ever really LDS theology - they’d say, “Well, we’ll never be completely independent because we’ll all “share” in HF/Christ’s “perfection” in the Celestial Kingdom.”
So it’s option #1. It’s clearly option #1. But they’ll never, ever come out and say that (well, not anymore, at least) because it means that the god they worship is not the omnipotent Creator of the Universe, the Alpha and the Omega of the Bible and orthodox Christian tradition.

As I said before, they know it. We know it. We know they know it. And they know we know they know it. But for some reason they can’t be honest about it, at least not in public.
Ok, let’s go with option 1 then - it’s a philosophical absurdity. Heavenly Father is indebted to “HGF” is indebted to HGGF is indebted to HGGGF is indebted to HGGGGF is indebted to HGGGGGF…and on and on and on into an infinite regress of humans becoming gods, without any answer as to who exactly organized this “eternal matter” that the Mormons speak of in the first place. 🤷
Ok, so we have eternal matter -who’s organizing it? Where did this organizer come from? Another human just hanging out in a chaotic swirl of eternal matter? It boggles the mind!!!:confused::whacky:

In other words, it’s bleeding ridiculous:choocho:. It makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever. And if they know we know they know it, what do they have to lose by simply following the truth where it leads??? It might be a bit embarassing for a time, but we can all move on right?:console:
 
I’ll save you a lot of link-clicking and searching:

That was never LDS doctrine. But if it was LDS doctrine, God changed his mind at some point.
If it was never LDS doctrine, why was it changed after some kind of revelation showed it to be erroneous? It was doctrine in some form or another, not just the ramblings of Brigham Young…
 
From what I can glean from Parker’s previous post, I don’t think he wants to debate anymore. It seems to be a fruitless debate though - it’s exhausting bringing up all these objections against Mormon theology and doctrine when they are just ignored.
Hi, Theidler…I saw Parker’s post.

From what I have seen of Parker…when he cannot control the course of the coversation…by his diversions…when no one bites…and points it out to him…he usually responds the way he had done…“to each his own”…

The other posts are not for Parker to debate…he could not refute the use of “Christ” to refer to Jesus, when it would not be used till after the resurrection, plus the revelation of the actual name of the Messiah and His mother…:eek:…now what would prevent every mother and father from then on naming their daughters Mary and their sons…Jesus…:eek::eek:

Anyway, these other posts are for the others who come here reading, but do not post. It is something for them to think about.

Well, actually, thanks to Parker’s post, I learned something to ask Mormon missionaries who come once in a while…I will ask them to explain the use of Christ, the confusion wrought by revealing the name of Mary and Jesus.

Gob bless to you…
 
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