LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

[why_me]

I agree, it was revolutionary because nobody in Christendom up to that point made such radical and extreme claims. They were so radical that the system as a whole cannot even be considered on the fringe of orthodoxy.

The idea that God the Father was once a man and had to work out his salvation in fear and trembling fits into the realm of Paganism rather than Christianity.

And yet, it does make sense. For example: If god is all knowing, how can he know the trials and wonders of human life if he never experienced it?

I would much rather have a god that experienced the flesh and understands, than a god that has no idea of what it means to be human. To create a human life does not give understanding of the experience. Experience comes through experience. Hence, the wisdom of a grandmother or grandfather to their grandchildren.

 

[why_me]

Yes, I think Mormons forget just how *different *this truly is. The very first sunday school lesson I attended at the LDS church was on exaltation which explicitly taught that God is an exalted man. Even though I knew beforehand that Mormonism taught this doctrine, I was still stunned by it, I mean it was like getting air knocked out of me-- it was so surreal to see everyone there just take it in stride like it was matter of fact when it was so… strange. I became a Mormon anyway, in part because the difference of the theology excited me and then I lost track of how different it all was after a year or so.

Difference should not get hatred and disrespect as is shown at times on this forum by the antimormon catholic posters. Tolerance is a good policy.

The lds take it in stride (god is an exalted man) because it can make sense and the lds do have good explanations.

 

[BartBurk]

And yet, it does make sense. For example: If god is all knowing, how can he know the trials and wonders of human life if he never experienced it?

I would much rather have a god that experienced the flesh and understands, than a god that has no idea of what it means to be human. To create a human life does not give understanding of the experience. Experience comes through experience. Hence, the wisdom of a grandmother or grandfather to their grandchildren.

God experienced it by coming into the world as Jesus Christ (who is God). The oneness of Father, Son and Holy Ghost is such that Jesus’ life and suffering were experienced by the entire Trinity. That’s the difference between the Christian message and the other religions in the world. God actually came here to be one of us.

 

[Ahimsa]

That’s the difference between the Christian message and the other religions in the world. God actually came here to be one of us.

Yes, God the Son became one of us, but God the Father, or God the Holy Spirit, did not.

 

[BartBurk]

Yes, God the Son became one of us, but God the Father, or God the Holy Spirit, did not.

But they experienced everything the Son experienced because of the unity of the Trinity. So in a real way God the Father experienced what it was like to be one of us through the Son:

John 10:37-38:

[37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
[38] But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

There is no way you can separate the Son’s experience from what the Father experienced. When the Son was on the Cross, the Father was there with him except in that moment when Jesus called out, “Why have you forsaken me?”

It also seems a little weird for whyme to claim the Father, who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent would need to come to earth to add to his knowledge.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Even though I knew beforehand that Mormonism taught this doctrine, I was still stunned by it, I mean it was like getting air knocked out of me

I think I know the feeling. My daughter converted to Mormonism, got married in the Temple. When her daughter (my beloved granddaughter) was in primary–she was parroting “God has flesh and bones just like me”. The Sunday school lesson (Primary) was even on my daughter’s refrigerator! Honestly the poor child hadn’t a chance to have “free agency”–she believed as was told! Meanwhile, I was simply aghast! (Of course that wasn’t the first time–when daughter told me that Jesus was “just a god”, I thought I had lost my breath–it was like being kicked hard in the chest!)

 

[FCEGM]

My interpretation seems better. JS was a christian revolutionary that brought christianity to new understandings and beliefs. :tiphat:

So, the charade of your Catholicism continues as you tip your hat to one who was neither a Christian nor a revolutionary; he was merely regurgitating polytheistic paganism that pops up over the ages when people have lost their bearings and serve their own imaginings rather than the wisdom from God - cf. Romans 1:19-23.

You may not agree with him, but he was bold in his declarations

Yes, it does take boldness driven by an enormous ego to contravene the Word of God.

 

[Nordar]

It also seems a little weird for whyme to claim the Father, who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent would need to come to earth to add to his knowledge.

Agreed, why would God need to come to earth to add to his knowledge? Just what exact knowledge would he gain from us considering he is, omnipresent and omnipotent. Why would anyone believe that? weird is putting it mildly.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Expanding on the nonsense of JS with more nonsense.

 

[why_me]

So, the charade of your Catholicism continues as you tip your hat to one who was neither a Christian nor a revolutionary; he was merely regurgitating polytheistic paganism that pops up over the ages when people have lost their bearings and serve their own imaginings rather than the wisdom from God - cf. Romans 1:19-23.

Yes, it does take boldness driven by an enormous ego to contravene the Word of God.

I think that Joseph Smith was a bold revolutionary who preached what he preached. I prefer to have an open mind about it all. I can see JS from an unbiased perspective. I know about his life and what he accomplished before his death. The lectures that he gave were bold and groundbreaking.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think that Joseph Smith was a bold revolutionary who preached what he preached. I prefer to have an open mind about it all. I can see JS from an unbiased perspective. I know about his life and what he accomplished before his death. The lectures that he gave were bold and groundbreaking.

The only “bold and groundbreaking” a Christian is concerned with is Jesus Christ.

Mormonism is neither bold or groundbreaking, it is a rehashing of old beliefs, long put down as heretical, pagan and just plain false.

 

[why_me]

Agreed, why would God need to come to earth to add to his knowledge? Just what exact knowledge would he gain from us considering he is, omnipresent and omnipotent. Why would anyone believe that? weird is putting it mildly.

God didn’t need to come to earth to add to his knowledge. But he needed to come to earth as man to taste what it means to have a body and to have human life.

And this also goes for heavenly mother.

In mormon theology, god was just like us. He was tested too. He learned about life through doing it. Hence, he has understanding of human frailities. We too, needed to get our physical bodies to be like god. But satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, denied physical bodies, thus, the stress that satan has in destroying our bodies.

Lets look at it this way: The virgin mary was once human. She lived on earth. She knows what it means to be human. I am sure that because of that experience she has a greater understanding of our trials and tribulations.And that is a good thing.

 

[why_me]

The only “bold and groundbreaking” a Christian is concerned with is Jesus Christ.

Mormonism is neither bold or groundbreaking, it is a rehashing of old beliefs, long put down as heretical, pagan and just plain false.

JS accomplished much in his short life. Unbelievable things for a worthless moneydigger. And I have to add, that the mormon church has been very successful. And its members rather dedicated to living the word of god, if they are active in the lds church.

And even if he did ‘rehash old things’, he did a very good job at reinvention.

 

[BartBurk]

I think that Joseph Smith was a bold revolutionary who preached what he preached. I prefer to have an open mind about it all. I can see JS from an unbiased perspective. I know about his life and what he accomplished before his death. The lectures that he gave were bold and groundbreaking.

That doesn’t sound unbiased to me. I guess I am more interested in truth than I am in somebody being “groundbreaking.” At least Zerinius understands that King Follet is at odds with everything else in LDS scripture. My own feeling was that Joseph Smith had reached a certain level of insanity by the time he had gotten to this point of his life. Here’s another quote from around the same time period:

I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

 

[why_me]

That doesn’t sound unbiased to me. I guess I am more interested in truth than I am in somebody being “groundbreaking.” At least Zerinius understands that King Follet is at odds with everything else in LDS scripture. My own feeling was that Joseph Smith had reached a certain level of insanity by the time he had gotten to this point of his life. Here’s another quote from around the same time period:

I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet

The boasting quotation has often been thrown around on this forum. But like I said the last time that I saw it, I would need to see the context and as to whether it was taken from someone’s notes who heard him speak or from a prepared speech. But I am sure that it has been either published in the books The Words of JS or the Teachings of JS. Both by lds publishers.

 

[BartBurk]

I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet

The boasting quotation has often been thrown around on this forum. But like I said the last time that I saw it, I would need to see the context and as to whether it was taken from someone’s notes who heard him speak or from a prepared speech. But I am sure that it has been either published in the books The Words of JS or the Teachings of JS. Both by lds publishers.

The whole content is right here:

utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_talks_interviews/smithboastingandpolygamydenial.htm

Please notice Joseph’s lies about “spiritual wifeism”, etc. He’s really stuck on himself …

 

[why_me]

Here is something from the mormonapologist wikipedia:

en.fairmormon.org/Unchanging_Nature_of_God

 

[RebeccaJ]

JS accomplished much in his short life. Unbelievable things for a worthless moneydigger. And I have to add, that the mormon church has been very successful. And its members rather dedicated to living the word of god, if they are active in the lds church.

And even if he did ‘rehash old things’, he did a very good job at reinvention.

Again, you are falling for the false Mormons teaching that material success matters. It doesn’t, not one wit.

There are many worthless criminals who did unbelievable things. Doesn’t mean squat.

Mormons are dedicated to living the words of JS, which are, every one of them, lies.

 

[Nordar]

God didn’t need to come to earth to add to his knowledge. But he needed to come to earth as man to taste what it means to have a body and to have human life.

God who is Our Creator needed to come to earth as man to taste what it meant to have a body and to have human life. What absurd nonsense.

 

[RebeccaJ]

God who is Our Creator needed to come to earth as man to taste what it meant to have a body and to have human life. What absurd nonsense.

Yes, this is the main nonsense of Mormonism, that God had to experience being a man in order to understand that which He CREATED.

Whyme, God knows every hair on your head, and not because He is a man, because He is your GOD.