LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

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Catholic_Dude said:
The LDS webpage published that Sermon in the official LDS magazine. The magazine makes it clear the scribes accurately recorded Smith’s message.

What is simply amazing here is the double standard in play. On one hand you don’t want to say those teachings are false and that JS was wrong, on the other hand you don’t want that Sermon to be accurately transcribed because of what it reveals.
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I am not sure what exactly was the gift of shorthand when that sermon was given by JS. I am sure that it is accurate up to a point. But I wanted to show that it was not taken directly from the sermon by JS. It was an account of what was said and not what was said by JS with paper in hand.
 
nebula said:
I think you are mistaken to equate intolerance for an idea with personal hatred. Of course Catholics in general will have intolerance for the ideas of Mormonism because by Catholic standards they are heresy. .
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The intolerance that I have seen is sheer mocking of mormon beliefs. And the wording about mormons at times leaves much to be desired. This is intolerance. Disagreeing is not being intolerant but attitudes behind many of antimormon posts shows a rather deep hatred for anything mormon.

Now lets look at it this way: mormons are by and large good people and they are generally speaking honest and generally follow the commandments and attempt to behave in a christian way.

Regardless of their beliefs, they are good and decent people who pray often to heavenly father in the name of his son Jesus Christ. Nothing wrong in that. And they have good strong family values…values if copied throughout societies, would create a better society all around.
 
why_me said:
The intolerance that I have seen is sheer mocking of mormon beliefs. And the wording about mormons at times leaves much to be desired. This is intolerance. Disagreeing is not being intolerant but attitudes behind many of antimormon posts shows a rather deep hatred for anything mormon.

Now lets look at it this way: mormons are by and large good people and they are generally speaking honest and generally follow the commandments and attempt to behave in a christian way.

Regardless of their beliefs, they are good and decent people who pray often to heavenly father in the name of his son Jesus Christ. Nothing wrong in that. And they have good strong family values…values if copied throughout societies, would create a better society all around.
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I agree that some active Mormons are good and decent people, but they are deceived. We’re not saved because of our goodness. We’re saved because we follow Jesus Christ in the way Christ established for us to follow him. That way is through the Catholic Church. I’m not saying Mormons won’t get into heaven, but if they do so it will be because of the ministry of the Catholic Church. The Book of Mormon has been proven false. It really is uncharitable to Mormons to leave them in the Mormon Church without warning them of that reality and inviting them to come into the Catholic Church where they can follow Jesus in the Church he founded. They need the Eucharist, not a lie about the ancestory of Native Americans.
 
As a former Mormon I was taught many times in sunday school that God was a man named Elohim, who followed the Mormon teachings and was exhaulted to godhood by his god. We were also taught that God lives on a star named Kolob. Talk about absurd folks.
 
reff said:
As a former Mormon I was taught many times in sunday school that God was a man named Elohim, who followed the Mormon teachings and was exhaulted to godhood by his god. We were also taught that God lives on a star named Kolob. Talk about absurd folks.
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That’s interesting. I’ve been a Mormon for at least the past twenty years and I’ve never been taught that in Sunday School. I do believe this is a teaching that has been “shelved”. Parts of what you mention are in the PoGP but the part about Elohim being exalted from a man to a God are not. The King Follet discourse is about all we have on it and it’s not official doctrine, has not been added to the D&C or PoGP. I assume this was done with a purpose.

So it’s difficult for us to either explain or defend this doctrine without any kind of official teaching. Personally I like the idea (of eternal progression) very much. You can call it a heresy if you like. You can call any teaching that doesn’t comport to Catholic Catechism a heresy for all I care. That only means we’re not Catholics and so what?
 
rmcmullan said:
That’s interesting. I’ve been a Mormon for at least the past twenty years and I’ve never been taught that in Sunday School. I do believe this is a teaching that has been “shelved”. Parts of what you mention are in the PoGP but the part about Elohim being exalted from a man to a God are not. The King Follet discourse is about all we have on it and it’s not official doctrine, has not been added to the D&C or PoGP. I assume this was done with a purpose.

So it’s difficult for us to either explain or defend this doctrine without any kind of official teaching. Personally I like the idea (of eternal progression) very much. You can call it a heresy if you like. You can call any teaching that doesn’t comport to Catholic Catechism a heresy for all I care. That only means we’re not Catholics and so what?
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It’s officially taught right here:

lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

Note the following from the manual:
This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: “It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).
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Please don’t try to tell us this is not taught in the LDS Church. It is taught to all new members in the new member classes from this manual. This comes directly from the King Follet sermon. If a quote from a manual used to teach new members is not really doctrine then the LDS Church is schizophrenic.
 
We are talking about the King Follett Sermon and a lot of strange to Christian thought, but we have never considered that it is strange to Christian thought because it, unlike the BOM, didn’t come from Christianity. In 1841, through Alexander Neibur, a European Jew, known Kabbalahist, and convert to Mormonism, Joseph Smith had access to the Jewish Kabbalah. In fact, in 1842 the whole library of this man was available to Joseph Smith. Surely, it’s more than possible that much of the strange (to Christian thought) derives from this source. (It also goes far to explain the many esoteric stories that we have been “treated” to by our Mormon posters.) For those of you who don’t know, the Kabbalah is occult folks.
 
Tsuzuki said:
Kabbalah is an official part of Orthodox Judaism.
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Right. The Orthodox Jews believe in more than one God and their Scriptures do not contain Deuternonomy 18:11-12 (Stating that God considers it an abomination to be a sorcerer–one who works magic). 😉

Hmmm–I think that Madonna (or one of those misguided stars) is into the Kabbalah. Maybe you can convince her that she is really an Orthodox Jew and should be obeying all the laws of Judaism and be keeping a kosher house instead!
 
Tsuzuki, perhaps you might enjoy Orson Scott Card’s “Enchantment” Should stop your argument on the subject.
 
LOL. I had you pegged. Enjoy.

Another point of the book is that the occult often seeps into Judaism and Christianity. Just part of the human condition, but definitely not orthodox.
 
AMDGtoo said:
We are talking about the King Follett Sermon and a lot of strange to Christian thought, but we have never considered that it is strange to Christian thought because it, unlike the BOM, didn’t come from Christianity. In 1841, through Alexander Neibur, a European Jew, known Kabbalahist, and convert to Mormonism, Joseph Smith had access to the Jewish Kabbalah. In fact, in 1842 the whole library of this man was available to Joseph Smith. Surely, it’s more than possible that much of the strange (to Christian thought) derives from this source. (It also goes far to explain the many esoteric stories that we have been “treated” to by our Mormon posters.) For those of you who don’t know, the Kabbalah is occult folks.
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There is no evidence that JS read the Kabbalah. And to my knowledge the Kabbalah is a rather difficult book to understand for even an intellectual. Most likely JS never bothered to read it.

But nice try. It seems that JS for many critics of mormonism was a pretty smart guy, doing nothing but reading and studying and moving his huge library from home to home while fleeing armed mobs with other lds members. 🙂
 
reff said:
As a former Mormon I was taught many times in sunday school that God was a man named Elohim, who followed the Mormon teachings and was exhaulted to godhood by his god. We were also taught that God lives on a star named Kolob. Talk about absurd folks.
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There were no mormon teachings when god was once a man. Mormon teachings came from the bible, book of mormon and other canonized doctrine. Who can say just what god was taught and what he had to go through as a man.
 
why_me said:
There were no mormon teachings when god was once a man. Mormon teachings came from the bible, book of mormon and other canonized doctrine. Who can say just what god was taught and what he had to go through as a man.
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Only, I as taught the same thing when I was a Mormon (more than 30 years ago). It was around 1980 that the Mormon church decided to be less weird, and has been trying ever since to convince people that they are Christian.

They aren’t.

It’s also been pointed out several times that this is still taught to new converts. So what you and zerinus seem to keep saying is that the Mormon church itself teaches something to people that is in error. Why in the hell would anyone choose to follow a church that teaches something you call error?
 
isaiah_9v6 said:
Hey, I know were I heard that humans can become Gods before. It’s in the Bible…Some Serpent talking to Eve. Here is the quote from Genesis 3:1-6 (king James Version, only translation Lds considers valid )…

[1] Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Yee shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

There Can be Only one I AM, Alpha and Omega not many.
May the Peace of Christ be with all of you.👍
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And this was basically true. By eating the fruit, man and woman became like gods, knowing good from evil. And of course, this is where we now are: knowing good from evil and striving to become like god whether through holiness or through perfection.
 
Tsuzuki said:
There is nothing wrong with either one, as long as they are taken for what they are. Plumb the depths of the unknown while building on the foundation of the known. This is reasonable to me.
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I would rather say that there is an often fuzzy line between mysticism and the occult. However, in general, you are right. There must be balance between spirit, emotion, the physical, and the intellect.
 
why_me said:
And this was basically true. By eating the fruit, man and woman became like gods, knowing good from evil. And of course, this is where we now are: knowing good from evil and striving to become like god whether through holiness or through perfection.
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God doesn’t trick people.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Only, I as taught the same thing when I was a Mormon (more than 30 years ago). It was around 1980 that the Mormon church decided to be less weird, and has been trying ever since to convince people that they are Christian.

They aren’t.

It’s also been pointed out several times that this is still taught to new converts. So what you and zerinus seem to keep saying is that the Mormon church itself teaches something to people that is in error. Why in the hell would anyone choose to follow a church that teaches something you call error?
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I can not say that god the father when a man had the book of mormon with a record of the nephites and lamanites. This is what I meant. God would have gone through his own process and not ‘mormon’ teachings.
 
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