LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

[why_me]

By whom?

Harold Bloom, the reknowned literary critic and author.

 

[why_me]

Two words ring out here:
Revelutionary
America

(can you tell me when, why or how America was the destination for the “truth” to come to light when how many years of christians passed before her birth?)

America was the place for new religious thought. If such a work as mormonism would have appeared or been founded in Europe, it would have been crushed. And in years previous, religious toleration was an unknown word in Europe. Hence, persecuted groups came to america for religious freedom. Which is perhaps why some mormons believe that America was founded by god to allow the restoration to take place. God inspired the american constitution to allow for the freedom of religion. So would say some mormons.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Harold Bloom, the reknowned literary critic and author.

Also an avowed atheist. He praises the King Follett Sermon as a literary creation–i.e, a “work of fiction or rhetoric”

 

[scipio337]

Harold Bloom, the reknowned literary critic and author.

I wrote my senior thesis on the “Universal Mind” in the Romantic movement being a precursor to Bloom’s “Anxiety of Influence” in post-modernism.

Needless to say, on that level, Bloom would call Dianetics “revolutionary”, a faith that could only happen in America.

Thank you, it was my good laugh for the day!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The people of Noah’s time thought the same of him, what happened.? the people of JESUS’s time cried blasphemy and they crucified Him ? Could we be wrong about a prophet of God as it has been said thet his name will be known for good and evil.

 

[ronald_g_w]

The Catholic Church gave us The Bible!

So I will trust their interpretation of it. How do you figure that The Mormon Church is the one true Church? Does it have Apostolic Succession? Since Jesus said to Peter “Upon this rock I will build my Church” therefor making Peter the first Pope. Where is your Pope?

Peter is not the rock that Christ would build his Church upon it was Revelation, Peter was the senior Apostle and responsible for the building up of the Lords Kingdom. In other words he was the Lords PROPHET. The organization of the Primitive Church = “apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers,evangelists, and so forth.”
Apostolic Succession ? Aftr the death of the Apostles there was no central recognized voice that spoke for all Christendom. The result was confusion and debate over issues of Christian doctrine and organization that lasted until the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in A.D. 325 (this was held to solve the most important and fundamental Question pressing against the Church - Who is God?)The Apostolic Fathers were the ante-Nicene Christian scholars, intellectuals, apologists, and leaders who bridged the gap between the apostolic Church and the state Church of Constantine. Some time after this was the rise in papal, power, celibacy, the primacy of the Roman See, and the healing of the papal schism which began in 1378. Apostolic Succession ?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Harold Bloom, the reknowned literary critic and author.

lol whyme, that’s a good one…he saw no theological truth, only an observance that mormonism denies the realities of death better than any religion…an atheist view. It doesn’t surprise me that you would agree with him.

 

[Nordar]

Peter is not the rock that Christ would build his Church upon it was Revelation, Peter was the senior Apostle and responsible for the building up of the Lords Kingdom. In other words he was the Lords PROPHET. The organization of the Primitive Church = “apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers,evangelists, and so forth.”
Apostolic Succession ? Aftr the death of the Apostles there was no central recognized voice that spoke for all Christendom. The result was confusion and debate over issues of Christian doctrine and organization that lasted until the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in A.D. 325 (this was held to solve the most important and fundamental Question pressing against the Church - Who is God?)The Apostolic Fathers were the ante-Nicene Christian scholars, intellectuals, apologists, and leaders who bridged the gap between the apostolic Church and the state Church of Constantine. Some time after this was the rise in papal, power, celibacy, the primacy of the Roman See, and the healing of the papal schism which began in 1378. Apostolic Succession ?

LOL this made me laugh, are you expecting us to believe that dribble? because that is exactly what it is.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Peter is not the rock that Christ would build his Church upon it was Revelation, Peter was the senior Apostle and responsible for the building up of the Lords Kingdom. In other words he was the Lords PROPHET. The organization of the Primitive Church = “apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers,evangelists, and so forth.”
Apostolic Succession ? Aftr the death of the Apostles there was no central recognized voice that spoke for all Christendom. The result was confusion and debate over issues of Christian doctrine and organization that lasted until the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in A.D. 325 (this was held to solve the most important and fundamental Question pressing against the Church - Who is God?)The Apostolic Fathers were the ante-Nicene Christian scholars, intellectuals, apologists, and leaders who bridged the gap between the apostolic Church and the state Church of Constantine. Some time after this was the rise in papal, power, celibacy, the primacy of the Roman See, and the healing of the papal schism which began in 1378. Apostolic Succession ?

You really need to read something other than a Mormon rendering of history.

 

[Nordar]

You really need to read something other than a Mormon rendering of history.

No kidding!

 

[janman55]

Peter is not the rock that Christ would build his Church upon it was Revelation, Peter was the senior Apostle and responsible for the building up of the Lords Kingdom. In other words he was the Lords PROPHET. The organization of the Primitive Church = “apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers,evangelists, and so forth.”
Apostolic Succession ? Aftr the death of the Apostles there was no central recognized voice that spoke for all Christendom. The result was confusion and debate over issues of Christian doctrine and organization that lasted until the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in A.D. 325 (this was held to solve the most important and fundamental Question pressing against the Church - Who is God?)The Apostolic Fathers were the ante-Nicene Christian scholars, intellectuals, apologists, and leaders who bridged the gap between the apostolic Church and the state Church of Constantine. Some time after this was the rise in papal, power, celibacy, the primacy of the Roman See, and the healing of the papal schism which began in 1378. Apostolic Succession ?

Ronald, I see you’re kinda new…you’ll have to do better than posting unfounded, baseless statements on this forum to ever have a chance of being taken seriously.

 

[AMDGtoo]

Peter is not the rock that Christ would build his Church upon it was Revelation, Peter was the senior Apostle and responsible for the building up of the Lords Kingdom. In other words he was the Lords PROPHET. The organization of the Primitive Church = “apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers,evangelists, and so forth.”
Apostolic Succession ? Aftr the death of the Apostles there was no central recognized voice that spoke for all Christendom. The result was confusion and debate over issues of Christian doctrine and organization that lasted until the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in A.D. 325 (this was held to solve the most important and fundamental Question pressing against the Church - Who is God?)The Apostolic Fathers were the ante-Nicene Christian scholars, intellectuals, apologists, and leaders who bridged the gap between the apostolic Church and the state Church of Constantine. Some time after this was the rise in papal, power, celibacy, the primacy of the Roman See, and the healing of the papal schism which began in 1378. Apostolic Succession ?

Where on earth did you get such nonsense? Oh, let me guess. It’s from James Talmage’s The Great Apostasy. Of course you know that it isn’t very scholarly, is full of gross distortions and outright falsehoods, and is very very biased against the Catholic Church?

You might want to read about the real history of the Church–try Jurgen’s The Faith of the Early Fathers. (Although later, I purchased it, at first I was able to borrow a copy from the Public Library.)

 

[RC_Matt]

As I have stated before, the issue of milk and meat is in the new testament. Paul tells the early church in corinth that he has given them milk and not meat because of their carnal nature. We humans are very carnal. Sometimes milk is better.

Paul was not talking about employing an obfuscatory and mendacious tactic to deliberately conceal salient information from people.

I will, however, grant that Mormonism is a better value than some others who engage in this practice; it costs less to learn about Kolob than it does Xenu.

 

[strngrnrth]

Paul was not talking about employing an obfuscatory and mendacious tactic to deliberately conceal salient information from people.

I will, however, grant that Mormonism is a better value than some others who engage in this practice; it costs less to learn about Kolob than it does Xenu.

No kidding!:hypno: Especially if you get sick.

 

[ronald_g_w]

Where on earth did you get such nonsense? Oh, let me guess. It’s from James Talmage’s The Great Apostasy.
You might want to read about the real history of the Church–try Jurgen’s The Faith of the Early Fathers.

.)

I’ve never read a book of James Talmage to date. I will take you up on your refrence. In the meantime can you name the “Pope” or person who recieved the KEYS from Peter and who called and ordained that person in an unbroken line of authority to the present.?, With my limited so called knowedge of the scripture this is how it is done. Mark 3:14 John 15:16 Acts 1:22 Heb 5:1

 

[scipio337]

Paul was not talking about employing an obfuscatory and mendacious tactic to deliberately conceal salient information from people.

I will, however, grant that Mormonism is a better value than some others who engage in this practice; it costs less to learn about Kolob than it does Xenu.

It depends on how much you make. Remember: “auditing” sessions are a set fee, no matter how little or how much you earn.



Very good point. I think many conflate Paul’s and the LDS’s concepts, just because they use the same words.

They’re not the same.

 

[scipio337]

I’ve never read a book of James Talmage to date. I will take you up on your refrence. In the meantime can you name the “Pope” or person who recieved the KEYS from Peter and who called and ordained that person in an unbroken line of authority to the present.?, With my limited so called knowedge of the scripture this is how it is done. Mark 3:14 John 15:16 Acts 1:22 Heb 5:1

Who is first on that list? (Matthew 10:2; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13; cf 1 Cor 15:5-8).

Whattaya know, he’s first on our list, too. Leaders of Christ’s Church on Earth. A study of them is a study of the Early Church Fathers.

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II, antipope (355-365)
St. Damasus I (366-83) Opposed by Ursicinus, antipope (366-367)
St. Siricius (384-99)
St. Anastasius I (399-401)
St. Innocent I (401-17)
St. Zosimus (417-18)
St. Boniface I (418-22) Opposed by Eulalius, antipope (418-419)
St. Celestine I (422-32)
St. Sixtus III (432-40)
St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
St. Hilarius (461-68)
St. Simplicius (468-83)
St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
St. Gelasius I (492-96)
Anastasius II (496-98)
St. Symmachus (498-514) Opposed by Laurentius, antipope (498-501)
St. Hormisdas (514-23)
St. John I (523-26)
St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
Boniface II (530-32) Opposed by Dioscorus, antipope (530)
John II (533-35)
St. Agapetus I (535-36) Also called Agapitus I
St. Silverius (536-37)
Vigilius (537-55)
Pelagius I (556-61)
John III (561-74)
Benedict I (575-79)
Pelagius II (579-90)
St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
Sabinian (604-606)
Boniface III (607)
St. Boniface IV (608-15)
St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
Boniface V (619-25)
Honorius I (625-38)
Severinus (640)
John IV (640-42)
Theodore I (642-49)
St. Martin I (649-55)
St. Eugene I (655-57)
St. Vitalian (657-72)
Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
Donus (676-78)
St. Agatho (678-81)
St. Leo II (682-83)
St. Benedict II (684-85)
John V (685-86)
Conon (686-87)
St. Sergius I (687-701) Opposed by Theodore and Paschal, antipopes (687)
John VI (701-05)
John VII (705-07)
Sisinnius (708)
Constantine (708-15)
St. Gregory II (715-31)
St. Gregory III (731-41)
St. Zachary (741-52)
Stephen II (752) Because he died before being consecrated, many authoritative lists omit him
Stephen III (752-57)
St. Paul I (757-67)
Stephen IV (767-72) Opposed by Constantine II (767) and Philip (768), antipopes (767)
Adrian I (772-95)
St. Leo III (795-816)

Continued…

 

[scipio337]

Continued…

Stephen V (816-17)
St. Paschal I (817-24)
Eugene II (824-27)
Valentine (827)
Gregory IV (827-44)
Sergius II (844-47) Opposed by John, antipope (855)
St. Leo IV (847-55)
Benedict III (855-58) Opposed by Anastasius, antipope (855)
St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
Adrian II (867-72)
John VIII (872-82)
Marinus I (882-84)
St. Adrian III (884-85)
Stephen VI (885-91)
Formosus (891-96)
Boniface VI (896)
Stephen VII (896-97)
Romanus (897)
Theodore II (897)
John IX (898-900)
Benedict IV (900-03)
Leo V (903) Opposed by Christopher, antipope (903-904)
Sergius III (904-11)
Anastasius III (911-13)
Lando (913-14)
John X (914-28)
Leo VI (928)
Stephen VIII (929-31)
John XI (931-35)
Leo VII (936-39)
Stephen IX (939-42)
Marinus II (942-46)
Agapetus II (946-55)
John XII (955-63)
Leo VIII (963-64)
Benedict V (964)
John XIII (965-72)
Benedict VI (973-74)
Benedict VII (974-83) Benedict and John XIV were opposed by Boniface VII, antipope (974; 984-985)
John XIV (983-84)
John XV (985-96)
Gregory V (996-99) Opposed by John XVI, antipope (997-998)
Sylvester II (999-1003)
John XVII (1003)
John XVIII (1003-09)
Sergius IV (1009-12)
Benedict VIII (1012-24) Opposed by Gregory, antipope (1012)
John XIX (1024-32)
Benedict IX (1032-45) He appears on this list three separate times, because he was twice deposed and restored
Sylvester III (1045) Considered by some to be an antipope
Benedict IX (1045)
Gregory VI (1045-46)
Clement II (1046-47)
Benedict IX (1047-48)
Damasus II (1048)
St. Leo IX (1049-54)
Victor II (1055-57)
Stephen X (1057-58)
Nicholas II (1058-61) Opposed by Benedict X, antipope (1058)
Alexander II (1061-73) Opposed by Honorius II, antipope (1061-1072)
St. Gregory VII (1073-85) Gregory and the following three popes were opposed by Guibert (“Clement III”), antipope (1080-1100)
Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
Paschal II (1099-1118) Opposed by Theodoric (1100), Aleric (1102) and Maginulf (“Sylvester IV”, 1105-1111), antipopes (1100)
Gelasius II (1118-19) Opposed by Burdin (“Gregory VIII”), antipope (1118)
Callistus II (1119-24)
Honorius II (1124-30) Opposed by Celestine II, antipope (1124)
Innocent II (1130-43) Opposed by Anacletus II (1130-1138) and Gregory Conti (“Victor IV”) (1138), antipopes (1138)
Celestine II (1143-44)
Lucius II (1144-45)
Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
Anastasius IV (1153-54)
Adrian IV (1154-59)
Alexander III (1159-81) Opposed by Octavius (“Victor IV”) (1159-1164), Pascal III (1165-1168), Callistus III (1168-1177) and Innocent III (1178-1180), antipopes
Lucius III (1181-85)
Urban III (1185-87)
Gregory VIII (1187)
Clement III (1187-91)
Celestine III (1191-98)
Innocent III (1198-1216)
Honorius III (1216-27)
Gregory IX (1227-41)
Celestine IV (1241)
Innocent IV (1243-54)
Alexander IV (1254-61)
Urban IV (1261-64)
Clement IV (1265-68)
Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
Blessed Innocent V (1276)
Adrian V (1276)
John XXI (1276-77)
Nicholas III (1277-80)
Martin IV (1281-85)
Honorius IV (1285-87)
Nicholas IV (1288-92)

St. Celestine V (1294)
Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
Clement V (1305-14)
John XXII (1316-34) Opposed by Nicholas V, antipope (1328-1330)
Benedict XII (1334-42)
Clement VI (1342-52)
Innocent VI (1352-62)
Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
Gregory XI (1370-78)
Urban VI (1378-89) Opposed by Robert of Geneva (“Clement VII”), antipope (1378-1394)
Boniface IX (1389-1404) Opposed by Robert of Geneva (“Clement VII”) (1378-1394), Pedro de Luna (“Benedict XIII”) (1394-1417) and Baldassare Cossa (“John XXIII”) (1400-1415), antipopes
Innocent VII (1404-06) Opposed by Pedro de Luna (“Benedict XIII”) (1394-1417) and Baldassare Cossa (“John XXIII”) (1400-1415), antipopes
Gregory XII (1406-15) Opposed by Pedro de Luna (“Benedict XIII”) (1394-1417), Baldassare Cossa (“John XXIII”) (1400-1415), and Pietro Philarghi (“Alexander V”) (1409-1410), antipopes
Martin V (1417-31)
Eugene IV (1431-47) Opposed by Amadeus of Savoy (“Felix V”), antipope (1439-1449)
Nicholas V (1447-55)
Callistus III (1455-58)
Pius II (1458-64)
Paul II (1464-71)
Sixtus IV (1471-84)
Innocent VIII (1484-92)
Alexander VI (1492-1503)
Pius III (1503)
Julius II (1503-13)
Leo X (1513-21)
Adrian VI (1522-23)
Clement VII (1523-34)
Paul III (1534-49)
Julius III (1550-55)
Marcellus II (1555)
Paul IV (1555-59)
Pius IV (1559-65)
St. Pius V (1566-72)
Gregory XIII (1572-85)
Sixtus V (1585-90)
Urban VII (1590)
Gregory XIV (1590-91)
Innocent IX (1591)
Clement VIII (1592-1605)
Leo XI (1605)
Paul V (1605-21)
Gregory XV (1621-23)
Urban VIII (1623-44)
Innocent X (1644-55)
Alexander VII (1655-67)
Clement IX (1667-69)
Clement X (1670-76)
Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
Alexander VIII (1689-91)
Innocent XII (1691-1700)
Clement XI (1700-21)
Innocent XIII (1721-24)
Benedict XIII (1724-30)
Clement XII (1730-40)
Benedict XIV (1740-58)
Clement XIII (1758-69)
Clement XIV (1769-74)
Pius VI (1775-99)
Pius VII (1800-23)
Leo XII (1823-29)
Pius VIII (1829-30)
Gregory XVI (1831-46)
Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
Leo XIII (1878-1903)
St. Pius X (1903-14)

Benedict XV (1914-22)
Pius XI (1922-39)
Pius XII (1939-58)
Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
Paul VI (1963-78)
John Paul I (1978)
John Paul II (1978-2005)
Benedict XVI (2005—)

newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

 

[AMDGtoo]

In the meantime can you name the “Pope” or person who recieved the KEYS from Peter and who called and ordained that person in an unbroken line of authority to the present.?, With my limited so called knowedge of the scripture this is how it is done. Mark 3:14 John 15:16 Acts 1:22 Heb 5:1

Well, you know about Peter who was chosen by Jesus (Matthew 16:18-19). Then we have Linus then Anecletus (sometimes called Cletus. The third successor to Peter as bishop of Rome was Clement I. (In fact he was called to settle a church community matter at Corinth even though the Apostle John was alive and closer to Corinth than Clement was. After Clement there was Evaristus, and after him was Alexander I, and after him … I believe there are 265 over the years from Peter to Benedict XVI. Around 200 A.D., Irenaeus, second bishop of Lyons, who also studied under Polycarp, who had been a disciple of the Apostle John, named all the Popes succeeding Peter up to his time (twelve by then.) The complete list of Popes from St. Peter can be found in any public library. Really it’s an unbroken chain over nearly 2000 years compared to the LDS’ 178.

BTW Acts 1:22 refers to filling the office of Apostle that Judas left vacant. I believe you meant to cite Acts 1: 24-26 and even Timothy 3.

 

[why_me]

lol whyme, that’s a good one…he saw no theological truth, only an observance that mormonism denies the realities of death better than any religion…an atheist view. It doesn’t surprise me that you would agree with him.

No. He found it a wonderful sermon because the ideas in the sermon were unigue.