LDS: King Follett Sermon - WOW! WOW! WOW!

[why_me]

It is man which learns through experience. God however is not a part of time and does not participate in change or mutability. God knows everything simply because He is. He does not have to experience human life to know what it is about. God does not have to do evil to know that evil is bad(as your logic would show). God simply knows. That said, God is omniscient. There is nothing that is hid from God, not even thoughts.

Even so, just by us having a body would make us just a little more superior to god who has never had a body. For after all, I can claim that I have had something so vital that god never possessed: a body.

Perhaps one of the greatest problems satan has is the fact that we have a body. Something that he has never possessed and was denied to possess. Thus the amount of time he puts into destroying our physical temples (our bodies), as described in the new testament.

And god does allow evil and yes, he knows that it is bad. He sees its outcome. There are a set of rules for us to follow. When we stray from those rules as we will, evil can ensue. But such is the nature of free agency.

 

[Ghoti]

If the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me!

Blasphemy!

Everyone knows Jesus read from the Douay-Rheims with Challoneer’s footnotes!

Which was later given to the apostles so they could translate it into Greek…

 

[rmcmullan]

Because we are still one church, in schism. The difference in opinion regarding filoque is small, and I know RC who find nothing wrong with the Orthodox view. There are also Orthodox who don’t view this difference as small.

We all believe the Holy Spirit is one person of the Trinity. One in being. Arguing over which distinct Person sends the Holy Spirit?..it’s God. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. From the perspective of a new convert… So, I just leave myself out of those arguments.

The apostolic claim is there because the Orthodox rites can trace their authority, by laying on of hands, back to the apostles. And, we hold in common agreement on councils, prior to the schism. We have the same Sacred Traditions, same valid Sacraments, same beliefs about those Sacraments, same, same, same. We have far more in common than not.

By virtue of their baptism, which is valid as it is done as the Catholic Church intends. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have doctrinal differences. We do, in some cases, very wide differences. But the essentials (found in the Credo) are the same.

Very interesting. So because they accept the Nicene Creed, their baptism and sacraments are acceptable. They can believe all the things that, to me, are craziness and about as wrong as can be such as the Once Saved Always Saved thing and still be part of what is considered the Body of Christ. But going against the Nicene Creed is different.

Now I know Mormons reject the Nicene Creed and believe the church had already lost its original Apostolic leadership by the time it had emerged. How about other Protestant religions? I would imagine any LDS follower such as RLDS is in the same category. How about 7th Day Adventists and JW’s? Do they accept the creed and do you accept their baptism?

 

[rmcmullan]

No, we believe God is three persons in one being. Mormons believe God is three beings; or that is what I was told my Mormons in high school.

We believe they are three separate beings that act with the same purpose. They are one in mind and goals but physically distinct. Like when the Father and Son appeared to St. Stephen. I always have trouble trying to relate with people who believe the Trinity because it seems like a contradiction to me. How can 1=3? To Mormons they are three distinct beings, in no way a single being except for the three act with a single purpose–to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

But that’s outside of the Nicene Creed.

 

[1holycatholic]

Random Ensign articles don’t trump existing scripture.

I have never looked to anti-Mormon sites when gathering information about the LDS. I have shown that the LDS present on their official web site false teachings that you just can’t accept. The incontrovertible truth is that the LDS officially teach polytheism which is absolutely incompatible with Christianity.

 

[why_me]

I have never looked to anti-Mormon sites when gathering information about the LDS. I have shown that the LDS present on their official web site false teachings that you just can’t accept. The incontrovertible truth is that the LDS officially teach polytheism which is absolutely incompatible with Christianity.

Not according to Paul:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=267446

 

[zaffiroborant]

The level of ‘hatred’ directed at mormonism will have its effect, especially on the Internet. Reading comments from supposed christians about mormonism and its evils I have to wonder just how cunning satan may be. The mormon church is a much hated church by people professing to be christian. And yet, the mormon message of loving god and obeying his commandments and keeping the body holy for the holy ghost to dwell in, seems to get the evil pumping around the lds church. In some strange way, it can show that satan is hard at work in undermining the lds church. And even on this section of the forum, the hatred is deep. The whole trinity contention is one example. To me it is comparing a macintosh apple to a Washington big red. Both are apples and in the end, it makes very little difference.

But in the book of mormon it does say that the church of christ will always be small. It will never be a large church. Which of course is quite strange when mormon haters seem to equate world glory to the vision of Joseph Smith.

Fact: the lds church teaches a healthy life code. It is centered in the new testament: keep the body holy, love god, preach christ, and love your follow human being.

But satan will not like that philosophy. And he will try to undermine it. Question: why so much hatred toward that message the lds church has?

I didn’t see any “hatred” in either article. Both mentioned LDS church growth (often cited as evidence of the truthfulness of the LDS church) but they had a different view on growth.

 

[ronald_g_w]

Falun Gong is the world’s fastest growing religion. Scientology is also very popular in Europe and has around 12 million members.

Does that make them true?

No the growth factor does not make it true, but there must be something there that is an answer to the individuals needs as truth can be found in most religions, I only raise the growth factor re: LDS as some one stated that the church was not growing which it is. Are Falun Gong and Scientology “Christian” I know nothing about them yet.

 

[why_me]

I didn’t see any “hatred” in either article. Both mentioned LDS church growth (often cited as evidence of the truthfulness of the LDS church) but they had a different view on growth.

I was referring to why the growth was slowing down. The internet has its effect. The hate sites are overwhelming for many who search for information about the lds church.

 

[ronald_g_w]

That is like me saying I made dinner but I have no idea what is for dinner?
It makes no sense.
.

you may have made dinner but you do not know what it tastes like, I am just splitting hairs.

 

[RC_Matt]

Three distinct personages (I have yet to hear a definitive definition of the word “being”), yet one God. Kind of like the Trinity.

And “Kolob” doctrines are among the most misunderstood parts of Mormonism. Mormon scholar Hugh Nibley believed that “Kolob” referred to Christ, not a place in the physical universe.

D&C 130:22 does not negate 2 Nephi 31:21 or D&C 20:28.

“And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.” - 2 Nephi 31:21

“Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.” - D&C 20:28

That is a caricature of Mormon beliefs (and only one interpretation, at that), and you know it.

Personage means “person,” which means individual. You can’t whitewash what the D&C says on this point.

As regards kolob, see chapter three of the Book of Abraham. According to you guys, whatever Hugh Nibley might have said is irrelevant; you criticize us for quoting from non-canonical Mormon sources, like the JoD, so you can’t apply a different standard to yourselves. Further, if you really want to go there, there are plenty of non-canonical Mormon sources that make the planetary nature of kolob abundantly clear.

As regards multiple gods and the doctrine of eternal progression, read chapters four and five of the Book of Abraham; then read chapter 47 (Exaltation) of the Gospel Principles Manual for the clear Mormon doctrinal teaching on this point (you can view that on the LDS website and it has the applicable DOC scriptural references). If you disagree with it, complain to them; we didn’t write the stuff.

 

[why_me]

Here is the speech in two parts:

emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONKC/431re…rmon.smith.htm

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.js…____&hideNav=1

Readers should be reminded that the account of the talk was reconstructed from longhand notes taken by four brethren. It is also important to know that the Prophet’s enemies were within just a few months of bringing about his death. This reprint was taken from the Documentary History of the Church, volume 6, pages 302–17.

Both the first part and the second part were in the official lds church magazine The Ensign. Such is meat before milk.

The final sentence of the sermon reads:

I rejoice in hearing the testimony of my aged friends. You don’t know me; you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall never undertake it.** I don’t blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself**. I never did harm any man since I was born in the world. My voice is always for peace.

And so it was.

 

[ronald_g_w]

Heavenly father, the most important of the three beings, was a mortal man who was exalted to godhood by being a good Mormon elsewhere. Mormon cosmology similarly includes countless other gods and this is simply not Christian. Jospeh Smith himself stated Christian beliefs to be an abomination.

I read plurality in the following scriptures.

Ps 82:1
GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods
Ps 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Ps 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
Ps 136:2
give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
1 Cor 8:5
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Cor 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the flight of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[why_me]

I read plurality in the following scriptures.

Ps 82:1
GOD standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods
Ps 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High.
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Ps 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
Ps 136:2
give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
1 Cor 8:5
For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Cor 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the flight of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I don’t see any wiggle room on this post.

 

[ronald_g_w]

Question: why so much hatred toward that message the lds church has?

Where the truth is you will always find its opposit. The closer anyone comes to JESUS CHRIST you can be sure satan is not far away

 

[AMDGtoo]

I have never looked to anti-Mormon sites when gathering information about the LDS.

Neither had I, but you know, I think we should start! Afterall, the LDS will continue to accuse us of it whether or not it is actually so. And furthermore, I have found that by not going to these sources, I actually didn’t know some things that the LDS teach (that thing with Michael the Archangel being Jesus and there was something else about Noah or Moses being someone else). Look–if they want to call us “anti-Mormons” (and say that we use anti-Mormon material for research) shouldn’t we oblige them so that they won’t continue to be liars in that charge? Wouldn’t that be the Christian thing to do–help them not to violate one of God’s Commandments–the one about not bearing false witness? I mean, they consider themselves so holy and all (don’t want to mess that up for them–they might not get a temple recommend if it was revealed that they aren’t as “saintly” as they claim.)

 

[ronald_g_w]

Even so, just by us having a body would make us just a little more superior to god who has never had a body. For after all, I can claim that I have had something so vital that god never possessed: a body.

Perhaps one of the greatest problems satan has is the fact that we have a body. Something that he has never possessed and was denied to possess. Thus the amount of time he puts into destroying our physical temples (our bodies), as described in the new testament.

And god does allow evil and yes, he knows that it is bad. He sees its outcome. There are a set of rules for us to follow. When we stray from those rules as we will, evil can ensue. But such is the nature of free agency.

If we look at this a little further the evil spirits when they were cast out requested to be cast into the swine just to have a body.

 

[ronald_g_w]

The incontrovertible truth is that the LDS officially teach polytheism which is absolutely incompatible with Christianity.

Is it, I don’t think so !

 

[ronald_g_w]

Neither had I, but you know, I think we should start! Afterall, the LDS will continue to accuse us of it whether or not it is actually so. And furthermore, I have found that by not going to these sources, I actually didn’t know some things that the LDS teach (that thing with Michael the Archangel being Jesus and there was something else about Noah or Moses being someone else). Look–if they want to call us “anti-Mormons” (and say that we use anti-Mormon material for research) shouldn’t we oblige them so that they won’t continue to be liars in that charge? Wouldn’t that be the Christian thing to do–help them not to violate one of God’s Commandments–the one about not bearing false witness? I mean, they consider themselves so holy and all (don’t want to mess that up for them–they might not get a temple recommend if it was revealed that they aren’t as “saintly” as they claim.)

What that thing with Michael the Archangel being JESUS CHRIST ?

 

[1holycatholic]

Is it, I don’t think so !

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