LDS Marriage

[jane_doe]

A woman’s only path to heaven is through a man, they are unable to get to heaven without being married to a LDS man.

Your statements here are incomplete.

1. The Catholic view of the afterlife is different than the LDS. To use the phrase “in heaven” with a Catholic view attached will bring you to the wrong conclusion.
2. You negate to in order to achieve the highest happiness, a both a man and woman are joined with Christ. Neither does this alone.

What it boils down to is women in an unsuitable marriage, such as non temple marriage, will be married to a LDS man as a second or third or more wife. (The man’s earthly wife is the first wife) As I quoted in the OP men who are not married can not achieve the Kingdom of God.

Incorrect.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Speaking from the LDS perspective here, respectfully acknowledging that it differs from other perspectives—

God, being ultimately just, gives everyone every opportunity to complete every ordinance, either in this life or the next. Whether that ordinance is baptism, confirmation, ordination, marriage, etc. Everyone gets every opportunity, else God would be unjust. This is basic theology.

Clarification here: by “in the next life” I am not talking about in Heaven. Rather, I am talking about the time between after death, through the Millennium, until the Final Judgement. During this time a person’s spirit still lives and they have the ability to make choices. They are not exposed to the fullness of God’s glory/wonder/knowledge until after the Final Judgement. And why would someone in such a state refuse God? The same reasons they do in this life.

1 Cor 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Matt 19:5-8

And many more verses. Man and woman were made for each other, and complete each other. They are to walk in the Lord together. This was how it was always supposed to be, Adam & Eve onward.

The greatest happiness is with all of the above: a marriage and family which walks with God.

No.

You haven’t provided a quote from the Mormon scriptures which proves your assertion, rather this seems like speculation on your part to answer the inherent problem of the quotation provided by the OP. Why does it mention:

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

Is it an option for a Mormon in the next life to not be married and actually choose this possibility or will a wife be forced upon him? So I am not convinced by your interpretation of the text provided. You have said before that speculation is not something encouraged by Mormonism yet I think you are guilty of doing exactly that now in an attempt to escape the difficulty presented by your religion.

What Paul is saying in Corinthians Eleven should be judged by what he says elsewhere, specifically Corinthians Seven. Of course men and women are made for each other yet despite that Paul encourages the men and the women to remain unmarried, only granting marriage as a concession to human weakness. The natural complimentary nature of male and female is not denied in celibacy and being unmarried. It should trouble you however that Saint Paul is making the argument that the Corinthian men should remain unmarried. If Saint Paul were a Mormon I can think of no reason for this type of advice which goes so wildly against Mormon theology. We also have the example of Christ who was himself unmarried and Christ is greater than anyone before him who was married.

How would you go about proving that the happiest married couple is happier and more completed than the happiest celibate? In the end I think you make our human completion, our human worth dependant on our interaction with a member of the opposite sex than with God alone. Christianity maintains that God is sufficient for those who have become Eunuchs for the Kingdom of God. In fact Jesus seems to encourage it (Mat 19:12). This verse I do not think being a literal endorsement of being a eunuch but rather being celibate. Would I be right to quantify Mormon completion as: the individual + Another Human + God = Completion? Because for the Christian the formula goes something like : God + The individual = Completion.

Also my question about the many wives of Joseph Smiths hasn’t been answered. He married many women, was sealed with many women. I will, like the Sadducee, ask whose wives will they be in heaven? What about the wives who had two husbands at once on earth, will they switch between husbands every now and then? This is a legitimate problem for the Mormon viewpoint on eternal marriages. Who is married to whom? Is it one big polygamous marriage in heaven? This question is so important in that it has ramification as to the status of your own heavenly mother or perhaps mothers. If Joseph Smith is allowed multiple wives there is reason to suspect your heavenly father has many wives.

 

[Horton]

You are incorrect in your assumptions here, but you of course are welcome to them

And this is proselytizing which is not allowed on these forums.

 

[jane_doe]

And this is proselytizing which is not allowed on these forums.

I am not proselytizing, just staying the LDS perspective as you requested. I very clearly stated that it was the LDS perspective, and I acknowledge and respect that other perspectives exist.

 

[Horton]

originally posted by horton
a woman’s only path to heaven is through a man, they are unable to get to heaven without being married to a lds man.

your statements here are incomplete.

1. the catholic view of the afterlife is different than the lds. To use the phrase “in heaven” with a catholic view attached will bring you to the wrong conclusion.
2. you negate to in order to achieve the highest happiness, a both a man and woman are joined with christ. Neither does this alone

 

[jane_doe]

.

 

[Marie5890]

I would like to know where the idea of the greatest source of happiness comes from marriage, in walk with God we there is scripture that suggest that being single is also of God and a viable way of being part of His Kingdom.

The Lord Himself even saying such in the scripture in Matthew.

 

[jane_doe]

You haven’t provided a quote from the Mormon scriptures which proves your assertion, rather this seems like speculation on your part to answer the inherent problem of the quotation provided by the OP.

Correct. Admittedly, this is do to my own time crunch today (I’m dealing with insurance after getting in an accident yesterday). My apologies. It is also not as simple as copy/paste because there are a number of underlying theological concept when need to be addressed. I will try to get to it soon.

A useful link for you: lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-38-eternal-marriage?lang=eng

Why does it mention:

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

An excellent example of underlying theological concept which need to be addressed. In this specific case, you are missing the framework of ordinance for the dead. Here’s a little on that: lds.org/topics/baptisms-for-the-dead?lang=eng

Is it an option for a Mormon in the next life to not be married and actually choose this possibility or will a wife be forced upon him?

LDS perspective: NOTHING is forced. Everything is a choice, that ability to choose is God’s greatest gift to us. A being whom forces anything is not of God.

How would you go about proving that the happiest married couple is happier and more completed than the happiest celibate? In the end I think you make our human completion, our human worth dependant on our interaction with a member of the opposite sex than with God alone. Christianity maintains that God is sufficient for those who have become Eunuchs for the Kingdom of God. In fact Jesus seems to encourage it (Mat 19:12). This verse I do not think being a literal endorsement of being a eunuch but rather being celibate. Would I be right to quantify Mormon completion as: the individual + Another Human + God = Completion? Because for the Christian the formula goes something like : God + The individual = Completion.

IgnatianPhilo, are you married? If so, do you love your spouse? Do they and your relationship bring your closer to God? Do you view your relationship as a source of happiness and strength?

Also my question about the many wives of Joseph Smiths hasn’t been answered. He married many women, was sealed with many women. I will, like the Sadducee, ask whose wives will they be in heaven? What about the wives who had two husbands at once on earth, will they switch between husbands every now and then? This is a legitimate problem for the Mormon viewpoint on eternal marriages. Who is married to whom? Is it one big polygamous marriage in heaven? This question is so important in that it has ramification as to the status of your own heavenly mother or perhaps mothers. If Joseph Smith is allowed multiple wives there is reason to suspect your heavenly father has many wives.

These are many questions which are different than the OP. If you have an particular you’d like me to address I will be happy to do so in another thread, via PM, or providing you links.

 

[Marie5890]

C

IgnatianPhilo, are you married? If so, do you love your spouse? Do they and your relationship bring your closer to God? Do you view your relationship as a source of happiness and strength?

(Im not sure that Jane is seeing my posts since she hasn’t replied, but I will reply to this question as a woman who has been single all my life)

Im not married, and I find that my walk with Christ isn’t impeded by the demands of marriage and children. Im not distracted, and can give myself wholly to Christ and the Kingdom.

My relationship with Christ has been THE GREATEST source of peace, joy and happiness and I can’t image that a relationship with a man would have the power to make it greater.

I realize that jane can only speak to her experience, which is that of a married woman. But she has never walked another path, that of the single woman. So she can’t really speak that that, nor invalidate it.

To say that marriage is “the greatest source of happiness, in walking with God” is short-sighted at the very least, blind at the very most.

There is nothing is scripture to support such a view.
There is scripture to support that both situations can be the greatest source of happiness. Why?

Because it’s not in the situation of married or single that provides the happiness. It’s the walk with Christ, Himself.

Something both married and single people can do. . It has zero to do with married or otherwise

 

[Marie5890]

Correct. Admittedly, this is do to my own time crunch today (I’m dealing with insurance after getting in an accident yesterday). My apologies.

.

Hope you, and anyone else impacted, are ok. Insurance is a nightmare and I hope that it gets settled quickly

 

[jane_doe]

Im not married, and I find that my walk with Christ isn’t impeded by the demands of marriage and children. Im not distracted, and can give myself wholly to Christ and the Kingdom.

Children are not a dissertation from learning about Christ, and neither is a spouse. In fact, having a family can teach one much about God (such as the love of a parent).

I realize that jane can only speak to her experience, which is that of a married woman. But she has never walked another path, that of the single woman. So she can’t really speak that that, nor invalidate it.

I was single for 25 years…

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Correct. Admittedly, this is do to my own time crunch today (I’m dealing with insurance after getting in an accident yesterday). My apologies. It is also not as simple as copy/paste because there are a number of underlying theological concept when need to be addressed. I will try to get to it soon.

A useful link for you: lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-38-eternal-marriage?lang=eng

An excellent example of underlying theological concept which need to be addressed. In this specific case, you are missing the framework of ordinance for the dead. Here’s a little on that: lds.org/topics/baptisms-for-the-dead?lang=eng

LDS perspective: NOTHING is forced. Everything is a choice, that ability to choose is God’s greatest gift to us. A being whom forces anything is not of God.

IgnatianPhilo, are you married? If so, do you love your spouse? Do they and your relationship bring your closer to God? Do you view your relationship as a source of happiness and strength?

These are many questions which are different than the OP. If you have an particular you’d like me to address I will be happy to do so in another thread, via PM, or providing you links.

I don’t think answering my question regarding Joseph Smith would go to far off topic. It would be especially pertinent to how eternal marriages are supposed to function within Mormon understanding.

Am I married? No. Would I like to? Sure. But even then that would be my own personal experience and it wouldn’t necessarily prove that marriage equals completion. There are examples of happy saints, men and women who remained unmarried and there are examples of happy saints, men and women who became married. The former found peace in God alone, the latter found peace in God through the help of their families. The former we are told in scripture are greater than the other in their dedication to God. People can become happy or unhappy in either circumstance, so i cannot see why you elevate one in terms of happiness over the other. It is problematic in fact to suggest full happiness/completion lies in having a good spouse because it makes something other than God necessary for our eternal status. Mormons might talk about how good God is, how great and awesome he is in the life of his believer, yet even God doesn’t compare to the love of a spouse.

Now the website you provided doesn’t actually address my concern that there is no justification for believing marriages can happen beyond this world. The emphasis on insisting one gets married in the temple on this planet seems to counter the notion.

 

[jane_doe]

Hope you, and anyone else impacted, are ok. Insurance is a nightmare and I hope that it gets settled quickly

Same here!!! Everyone was ok, but the insurance is a nightmare. And little things-- like my carseat is now invalid to drive around because it was in an accident (at 5 mph!). And of course there’s no where in town I can buy a new carseat, so I’m not supposed to drive anywhere with my daughter until Amazon ships me a new one. (Sorry for the vent).

 

[Marie5890]

Children are not a dissertation from learning about Christ, and neither is a spouse. In fact, having a family can teach one much about God (such as the love of a parent).

I was single for 25 years…

And I have been for over 50.

One cannot compare the two paths as a determination as “which is the greatest source of happiness”…

Not everyone is called to marriage, It’s that simple. And there is scripture to support that.

 

[Marie5890]

Same here!!! Everyone was ok, but the insurance is a nightmare. And little things-- like my carseat is now invalid to drive around because it was in an accident (at 5 mph!). And of course there’s no where in town I can buy a new carseat, so I’m not supposed to drive anywhere with my daughter until Amazon ships me a new one. (Sorry for the vent).

Totally understand the vent, especially when it comes to insurance…

Insurance often times just adds to the trauma.

Glad everyone is ok.

 

[Horton]

And I have been for over 50.

One cannot compare the two paths as a determination as “which is the greatest source of happiness”…

Not everyone is called to marriage, It’s that simple. And there is scripture to support that.

The most problematic issue with this belief is we know Jesus Christ never married. How did He get to the celestial kingdom without a wife?

I’ve spent 30 years of my adult life single. I was in a horrible marriage long enough to have three boys. Marriage was not a happy place for me. I found much more happiness as a single woman walking my own path with the Lord. I’m still open to marriage but it’s not likely to happen. If it is the will of God for me to continue as a single woman I will do so.

This “greatest source of happiness” is not contained to marriage, God is the greatest source of happiness.

 

[jane_doe]

This “greatest source of happiness” is not contained to marriage, God is the greatest source of happiness.

LDS are not separating those two. Notice how I keep saying a marriage walking with God.

 

[Marie5890]

This “greatest source of happiness” is not contained to marriage, God is the greatest source of happiness.

Indeed it is. That is why the 1st Commandment is “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”

That includes a spouse or marriage. God and God alone is first. Everything else follows after that.

With your post, Horton, my entire life is over 50, so to say I have been single over 50 includes my childhood. If one were to speak only of adulthood, I too have been single well over 30 years, i.e. leaving out my childhood and teenage years.

Human beings are not monolithic, even when it comes to marriage and children.

 

[Marie5890]

LDS are not separating those two. Notice how I keep saying a marriage walking with God.

That’s the whole point, though. The greatest source of happiness is walking with God regardless if one is single or married.

Sacred scriptures supports both life styles as being worthy of the Kingdom of God, as pointed out in the scriptures mentioned already in this thread.

 

[jane_doe]

That’s the whole point, though. The greatest source of happiness is walking with God regardless if one is single or married.

Do you guys not keep trying to separate them, claiming that family and marriage is a distraction from God?